Author Topic: .32-20 for white tail (Read 6582 times)

Cheesehead · « **on:** June 25, 2006, 05:40:09 AM »

A friend of mine and his brother have recently obtained Marlin 32-20 rifles. He is looking for reloading data since he has 600 pieces of brass for this caliber. I found data in the Lyman 42nd edition and am looking for other sources. He tells me his brothers have taken deer at close range with well placed shots. What is the history behind this cartridge? What are its limitations? Can it be reloaded a little hotter to be some what of a heavy hitter?

Cheese

Shorty · « **Reply #1 on:** June 25, 2006, 07:34:33 AM »

Cheesehead,
Introduced in 1882 for the Win. '73, the load was standardized at 16,000 CUP. When the Model 1892 came out, a new high velocity load was introduced at 26,000 CUP. Standard loads today are restricted to 17,700 CUP. Surely the new Marlins could handle the HV loads of the '92. My reloading book offers only factory equivalent loads resulting in 1200 FPS with 100 or 115 gr bullets in 26" bbls, not very impressive. 'Hope this helps.

Mikey · « **Reply #2 on:** June 26, 2006, 01:04:30 AM »

My older reloading manuals show some pretty impressive velocities for the old 32-20 from a 24" Savage Sporter, but you are only shooting 100 and 115 gn pills to get them to go that fast. That being said I feel it would be damned unethical to try and take whitetail with a 32-20, it is just pretty light for that kind of work. I would almost consider that caliber to be in the 'poaching' category for whitetail, but I'm certain there have been lots of folks who have gone and taken whitetail with that caliber. None the less, that would certainly not be my choice. Mikey.

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** June 26, 2006, 04:06:03 AM »

I have to chuckle when reading Mikey's comments. They are so typical of the thinking process of today's hunters where only super magnums have enough umph to get thru the seriously thickened hides of modern deer. Once upon a time folks considered a .36 caliber round ball plenty of medicine for deer. Heck a .50 round ball was considered big magic on American Bison and big bears even.

The longest standing white tail deer world record the Jordan Buck was taken with a .25-20 which in it's day was considered a fine deer round and much used.

While I tend to agree that by today's standards the .32-20 even when loaded to it's max potential is on the light side for deer I'd sure not call it's use unethical. That is a term I feel is grossly misused and over used these days. It seems anything not to the liking of anyone and not up to their standards is now unethical. So by that logic and my thinking process all those magnums and super magnums must be unethical to use as I think them too much gun. :-D

In the hands of a good shooter willing to wait on a proper shot presentation the old .32-20 loaded to its real potential would be fine for deer at reasonable ranges. Would it be one to take on an expensive out of state hunt? Nope, but used locally where you're willing to wait on that proper shot and in the hands of a REAL HUNTER it's plenty. Even on modern deer which by some miracle of evolution seem to have now grown hides 2" thick that will stop all but super magnum rounds right on the surface. :-D

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #4 on:** June 26, 2006, 12:37:12 PM »

sorry Mikey but im with Bill on this one. Alot of whitetails have been killed up here with 3220s Ive personaly killed two and killed quite a few more with a .30 carbine in my younger days and there pretty simular ballistically when the 3220 is handloaded. Under 100 yards theyve both killed real well for me. Like bill i chuckle at the magnumitis i see up here very few shots are over 100 yards and an 270 or an 06 is a real overkill in my opionion. A 100 lb whitetail doesnt take much killing. I wish i knew the buck count on that old 3220. It was my grandpas only rifle and he took many deer and bear with it so did i and its been used by quite a few others in the family that wanted to shoot a buck with gramps gun. Funny thing is i cant remember one time that we tracked a deer that was shot by it. It may not be a first choise for a deer rifle especially for a kid or beginner but in the hands of someone who can shoot it makes a fine deer rifle.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #5 on:** June 26, 2006, 04:19:16 PM »

I'm with Greybeard, and Lloyd all the way on this one.

It'd be so refreshing to see a gun writer break away from the rediculous path they've all been swayed onto, and start writing articles about "actual" hunting, instead of just trying to sell the latest calibers to the public. If they'd start killing game again with rounds like the 32-20, 25-20, and other "less popular" calibers, you'd eventually see everybody rushing out to buy them instead of the latest magnums.

You'd also stop seeing posts saying that anything less than a 270, or 30-06 is unethical for deer hunting. It's a shame that out of all the people in the woods every season, very few have ever enjoyed the feeling that comes from "true hunting".

Cheesehead · « **Reply #6 on:** June 26, 2006, 04:57:11 PM »

The guys I am talking about first experienced the 32-20 as a family heirloom in the shape of an old Winchester lever rifle passed down from generation to generation as a deer hunting rifle. The gun has been used to harvest deer by many family members over many years in NW Wisconsin. The nostalgic interest continues in Marlin 32-20 rifles and a commitment to harvest deer with these rifles. They are highly experienced bow hunters and hunt with 348 caliber lever rifles with iron sights exclusively and have bagged many trophy bucks. Nothing unethical here.

Cheese

Mikey · « **Reply #7 on:** June 27, 2006, 01:47:54 AM »

Aw c'mon guys, I just felt it was a bit light, that's all. Most of my lever work is done in thick woods and brush and I thought the 32-20 just a tad on the light side for what I do. No mag-num-moo-itis, just a bit light. Thaz all......... A somewhat chagrined Mikey.

AJAX · « **Reply #8 on:** June 27, 2006, 10:55:42 AM »

Dear Cheese,
You asked of the 32-20 in the Marlin 1894CL: Can it be reloaded a little hotter to be some what of a heavy hitter?

Rick Jamison (Shooting Times, Feb 89) lists several "hotter" loads suitable for the CL. One is 100 Speer HP, 15.0 H4227, W-W case, CCI400 for 2068fps, average group 1.7" @ 50yds. Another is same bullet, 11.5 2400, Rem case, CCI 400 for 1818 fps, average group 1.4" @ 50yds.

Brian Pearce (Handloader Dec 01) lists loads grouped into three catagories by pressure. There are several in the middle catagory of 30,000 CUP, which provides a good balance of power and case life. One is 100 Speer HP, 13.5 H-110, Starline case, Win small rifle primer for 2125 fps and .9" @ 75 yds. Another is 100 Hornady HP, 11.0 2400, same case and primer for 1766 fps and 1.7 @ 75yds.

I am loading for an original Win 73 so won't go anywhere near these. If I had CL, which I might since I really like the cartridge, I'd work up to these loads in my rifle. You might try to get the magazines I mentioned and check the rest of the data. I picked these since that's where I'd start if I wanted to plug a smallish deer at close to moderate range.

Good luck and above all, have fun.

AJAX

TNrifleman · « **Reply #9 on:** June 27, 2006, 02:36:03 PM »

This is an interesting post. I agree that many "gunners" are carrying much more rifle than they actually need (or can shoot well) to hunt whitetail deer. We seem to have an obsession with "more power" which has carried over into the game fields.

Not to be argumentative, but wasn't the James Jordan buck killed with a 25-35 WCF Winchester, rather than a 25-20? The 25-35 is a 30-30 WCF necked down to 25 caliber and it is more powerful than the 25-20. :?

86er · « **Reply #10 on:** June 27, 2006, 04:33:04 PM »

Jordan's 400lb Whitetail buck was taken with a .25-20. It took him several shots and a lot of tracking before he finally put the buck down with a spine shot.

I have never attempted to kill a deer with a .25-20, but have dropped many a coyote, even out to 100+ yds. Never underestimate the "oomph" of the little cartridges.

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #11 on:** June 27, 2006, 05:02:57 PM »

Quote from: Mikey

Aw c'mon guys, I just felt it was a bit light, that's all. Most of my lever work is done in thick woods and brush and I thought the 32-20 just a tad on the light side for what I do. No mag-num-moo-itis, just a bit light. Thaz all......... A somewhat chagrined Mikey.

OK, you're cleared from any charges :wink:

I was starting to worry about you though! :lol:

Mikey · « **Reply #12 on:** June 28, 2006, 11:40:02 AM »

Jerry - thanks............... And with all that being said I just read that article on the 25-35 and the record buck, but didn't know it took several shots and tracking down a wounded whitetail to do it. I simply prefer to anchor them in their tracks and feel larger bores with heavier bullets perform better - at least they do for me. And that's all I'm gonna say on the issue. (Zip-lipped) Mikey.................

Jerry Lester · « **Reply #13 on:** June 28, 2006, 04:14:42 PM »

Quote from: Mikey

Jerry - thanks............... And with all that being said I just read that article on the 25-35 and the record buck, but didn't know it took several shots and tracking down a wounded whitetail to do it. I simply prefer to anchor them in their tracks and feel larger bores with heavier bullets perform better - at least they do for me. And that's all I'm gonna say on the issue. (Zip-lipped) Mikey.................

I agree with you 100% on the ethical aspects of that type of situation. If it takes more than one well placed shot, it could be that a good hunter just made a slight mistake, or that some unseen thing like a limb or something came into play. If it takes "multiple" shots, then it's not exactly what I'd call "ethical" either. It's a very well known fact that many deer have dropped in their tracks to calibers like the 22LR, and 22 magnum. If it took more than one well placed shot from anything larger to kill a deer humanely it'd surprize me. That case sorta sounds like some sloppy hunting to me, record deer or not.

I'm not advocating using "micro-calibers" for deer hunting. I'm just making educated comments on this particular case.

Keith L · « **Reply #14 on:** June 28, 2006, 04:33:08 PM »

I stopped hanging out on Rimfire Central when some of the folks over there were bragging about bringing down deer sized game (and larger) with .17 HMR. While it can be done in the hands of a skilled hunter there aren't that many of them around. Slob hunters will wound more game with mini guns, and in most cases won't try to find them giving all of us a bad name. While I don't subscribe to the theory that whitetail deer are made of cast iron, I do think enough gun to plant them is in order. Where I normally rifle hunt I don't have a shot over about 40 yards so my 30-30 is fine. One of the stands has a shooting lane with a 200+ yard range, and that guy uses a 7MM-08. Use the proper tool for the proper job.

Graybeard · « **Reply #15 on:** June 28, 2006, 04:35:56 PM »

Back in the day when the Jordan buck was taken the use of the .25-20 and .32-20 was quite common. Back then we didn't have magnums and darn few folks used anything much more powerful than those or a .38-40 or .44-40. Many black powder rounds were still in use. I guess the .30-30 was considered pretty big medicine in those days and was considered quite powerful. Those were more simple times and a man used what he had. A rifle like the .25-20 or .32-20 was plenty for the small game most commonly potted and was up to occasional double duty on deer when one was sighted.

I'd sure not recommend them for regular deer hunting but in the hands of an experienced shot and hunter it will do.

GregP42 · « **Reply #16 on:** June 28, 2006, 06:43:12 PM »

One of the first deer I killed as a boy was with my great grandfathers 92 winchester in 32-20, one shot and the deer ran about 30 yards. I have hunted with small rounds ever since then when I could, never had to take a second shot on a deer yet with the 32-20 (knock on wood).

Greg

Old Griz · « **Reply #17 on:** June 28, 2006, 09:50:34 PM »

:cb2: Yeah, well that's all fine and good I guess, but I ain't givin' up my high powered rife. Nope, my .30-30 is here to stay!

Cheesehead · « **Reply #18 on:** June 30, 2006, 05:24:57 AM »

Thanks everybody for the very useful information and insights on this interesting and historic cartridge. A special thanks to AJAX for recommending Handloader magazine. I actually found my copy of Dec, 2001! It is full of info and loads for various guns. I am looking forward to shooting a 32-20 lever rifle. I would bet it is a real pleasure.

Cheese

AJAX · « **Reply #19 on:** June 30, 2006, 08:55:21 PM »

Glad I could be of assistance. Cheese. I've been trying some loads for my M73 and it's quite fun to shoot. I found I could stuff 15 rounds into the magazine. With a 26" octogon barrel my arms began to ache emptying the mag offhand.

Yesterday, from sand bags I shot a 50 yd group that went .8". The load was 8.5grs IMR 4227 and what appeared to be a Lyman 311008 that I'd bought years ago. A previous trip to the range yielded a 1.7" group with an 8.0gr load. Not bad for eyeballs that don't quite focus on the open sights. I may need to aquire a mold the 311008 mold since that bullet seems to work better than another commercially cast bullet I tried.

Also, 4227 may be a little slow for the pressure levels I'm operating at since I was get a bit of unburned powder kernels. A note to your friends: the case necks are rather thin and all bullets should be firmly crimped so they don't get pushed back in.

Oldtimer · « **Reply #20 on:** July 01, 2006, 06:10:56 AM »

Since the Jordan buck was brought up, it might be useful to look at the history of its hunt. As noted already, Jordan used a 25-20 to kill it. The kind of rifle he carried was not mentioned, but it says that he emptied the weapon at the deer, and that the first shot was with the deer standing still, unaware of his presence. All this is a cautionary tale to those who want to use light rifles deer hunting. First, be sure of your shot. Second, be able to track well. And finally, remember to bring extra ammunition and keep your knife close at hand.

Sir Charles deMoutonBlack · « **Reply #21 on:** July 01, 2006, 07:40:24 AM »

This is an interesting thread. The first CL I ever saw was in a gunshop in Campbell River BC Canada. That is prime country for "Mowich" (Columbia Blacktail deer - usually quite small) I was tempted, but my pockets were a bit light then.

I've got my sights on a "94 carbine in .357 at present. About the same class, I'd say.

What is most important, before you discuss what is "enough gun", is to check your State or Province, hunting regs! Often bureaucrats think they know more than you!

Savage .250 · « **Reply #22 on:** July 05, 2006, 07:08:20 AM »

Why not ? The .32-20 has killed them before and will kill them again.
Just don`t over due it`s limits and take "good" shots.
I`d like to have one but the lack of funds is holding me back

Savage .250 · « **Reply #23 on:** July 05, 2006, 07:09:42 AM »

  Why not ? The .32-20 has killed them before and will kill them again.
  Just don`t over due it`s limits and take "good" shots.
   I`d like to have one but the lack of funds is holding me back

R J Talley · « **Reply #24 on:** July 09, 2006, 06:50:22 AM »

I have found that using the Lyman 311316 GC bullet infront of 11 grains of 2400 produces a lod that has enough power to kill cleanly and is accurate enough to het well. That being said, if you have a revolver around the house or any of the less strong actions, do not keep this load around the house. It is way too hot for all but the modern M92 type actions or the single shots of recent mfg. I use a Browning M53 myself and love it to death.

Bitterroot Bob · « **Reply #25 on:** July 22, 2006, 02:03:48 AM »

Howdy,
I have loaded hard-cast 118-grain bullets to near .30 Carbine performance levels for my 1894CL Marlin. That said, the .30 Carbine is still marginal for deer, especially when the 1894C in .357 can handle 180-grain bullets at 2000 fps. With proper shot placement, I'd regard the .32-20 as a last-ditch adequate deer gun, but I'd prefer something a touch bigger. I would choose the .32-20 as my all around gun for taking a long trek through the woods, though. It is great for any thing that would feed the hiker, and my little rifle doesn't make the arms feel longer as the day stretches.

Bitterroot

Greeenriver · « **Reply #26 on:** August 15, 2006, 05:13:46 PM »

Way back when I was just ak and just starting to hunt deer, teh first three years I hunted with my Mom's rifle, and got a deer each year. It was a Model 92 Winchester in 32-20 and a fine shooting little rifle. Then my Dad got me a Remington hammerless pump rifle, again, in 32-20, that I used for a few years. I never figgered that a 32-20 was too lite for the normal Deer we have here in Michigan at all. The first 5 I ever got were with them 32-20's, and they never took over a couple shots. Probibly didn't need the second shot, but better safe than sorry.

I curently don't have a 32-20 rifle, but am looking for one, and have two revolvers in 32-20 that are a TON of fun to shoot. Try them sometime with the origional load, 20grns of BP under a 115grn Cast slug. That load will peg your "Fun Meter"!!! If I remember right, I think that the 32-20 was the 5th most popular caliber chambered in the Colt SA revolvers. Read that somewhere.

Greeenriver

Syncerus · « **Reply #27 on:** August 18, 2006, 11:41:39 AM »

Why screw around with something so obviously underpowered as the .25/20 when we can use something newfangled like the .300 Savage?

As Elmer Keith used to say, "I prefer to do all my hunting before I pull the trigger."

Do we need a .300 RUM to terminate an whitetail? Nope, but a .35 Remington will certainly do a nice job.

I'm with Mikey on this one.

Syncerus

Scott T · « **Reply #28 on:** August 19, 2006, 03:54:52 PM »

"That being said I feel it would be damned unethical to try and take whitetail with a 32-20, it is just pretty light for that kind of work. I would almost consider that caliber to be in the 'poaching' category for whitetail"

"damned unethical" is a bit of a stretch. I have killed a truck full of deer with a .30 Carbine because it was the only rifle we had. The .32-20 is probably better for deer than the .30 carbine. We never lost a deer and we killed them just fine.

I would not hesitate to shoot a deer with a .32-20 rifle, and I do not think anyone who knows me would think I am an unethical hunter.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #29 on:** August 22, 2006, 02:00:13 PM »

Im another one that shot and witnessed the shooting of a truck load of deer with a .30carbine. It was my first deer rifle and one of the oldtimers at camp used one to and he had other guns to chose from. He has probably shot more deer with his then anyone i know with any kind of a gun. I too have never lost one with a carbine. Put that little 110 behind the shoulder and you have one dead deer!