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TM7

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« on: June 28, 2006, 02:09:30 PM »
from the Washington Post. Mr. Bush refused to deal with the Iranians--even CFR leader Haas waqs shocked....fyi.....TM7
.
In 2003, U.S. Spurned Iran's Offer of Dialogue
Some Officials Lament Lost Opportunity

By Glenn Kessler
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, June 18, 2006; A16

Just after the lightning takeover of Baghdad by U.S. forces three years ago, an unusual two-page document spewed out of a fax machine at the Near East bureau of the State Department. It was a proposal from Iran for a broad dialogue with the United States, and the fax suggested everything was on the table -- including full cooperation on nuclear programs, acceptance of Israel and the termination of Iranian support for Palestinian militant groups.

But top Bush administration officials, convinced the Iranian government was on the verge of collapse, belittled the initiative. Instead, they formally complained to the Swiss ambassador who had sent the fax with a cover letter certifying it as a genuine proposal supported by key power centers in Iran, former administration officials said.

Last month, the Bush administration abruptly shifted policy and agreed to join talks previously led by European countries over Iran's nuclear program. But several former administration officials say the United States missed an opportunity in 2003 at a time when American strength seemed at its height -- and Iran did not have a functioning nuclear program or a gusher of oil revenue from soaring energy demand.

"At the time, the Iranians were not spinning centrifuges, they were not enriching uranium," said Flynt Leverett, who was a senior director on the National Security Council staff then and saw the Iranian proposal. He described it as "a serious effort, a respectable effort to lay out a comprehensive agenda for U.S.-Iranian rapprochement."

While the Iranian approach has been previously reported, the actual document making the offer has surfaced only in recent weeks. Trita Parsi, a Middle East expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said he obtained it from Iranian sources. The Washington Post confirmed its authenticity with Iranian and former U.S. officials.

Parsi said the U.S. victory in Iraq frightened the Iranians because U.S. forces had routed in three weeks an army that Iran had failed to defeat during a bloody eight-year war.

The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its "legitimate security interests." Iran agreed to put a series of U.S. aims on the agenda, including full cooperation on nuclear safeguards, "decisive action" against terrorists, coordination in Iraq, ending "material support" for Palestinian militias and accepting the Saudi initiative for a two-state solution in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The document also laid out an agenda for negotiations, with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

Newsday has previously reported that the document was primarily the work of Sadegh Kharazi, Iran's ambassador to France and nephew of Iranian Foreign Minister Kamal Kharazi and passed on by the Swiss ambassador to Tehran, Tim Guldimann. The Swiss government is a diplomatic channel for communications between Tehran and Washington because the two countries broke off relations after the 1979 seizure of U.S. embassy personnel.

Leverett said Guldimann included a cover letter that it was an authoritative initiative that had the support of then-President Mohammad Khatami and supreme religious leader Ali Khamenei.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has stressed that the U.S. decision to join the nuclear talks was not an effort to strike a "grand bargain" with Iran. Earlier this month, she made the first official confirmation of the Iranian proposal in an interview with National Public Radio.

"What the Iranians wanted earlier was to be one-on-one with the United States so that this could be about the United States and Iran," said Rice, who was Bush's national security adviser when the fax was received. "Now it is Iran and the international community, and Iran has to answer to the international community. I think that's the strongest possible position to be in."

Current White House and State Department officials declined to comment further on the Iranian offer.

Paul R. Pillar, former national intelligence officer for the Near East and South Asia, said that it is true "there is less daylight between the United States and Europe, thanks in part to Rice's energetic diplomacy." But he said that only partially offsets the fact that the U.S. position is "inherently weaker now" because of Iraq. He described the Iranian approach as part of a series of efforts by Iran to engage with the Bush administration. "I think there have been a lot of lost opportunities," he said, citing as one example a failure to build on the useful cooperation Iran provided in Afghanistan.

Richard N. Haass, head of policy planning at the State Department at the time and now president of the Council on Foreign Relations, said the Iranian approach was swiftly rejected because in the administration "the bias was toward a policy of regime change." He said it is difficult to know whether the proposal was fully supported by the "multiple governments" that run Iran, but he felt it was worth exploring.

"To use an oil analogy, we could have drilled a dry hole," he said. "But I didn't see what we had to lose. I did not share the assessment of many in the administration that the Iranian regime was on the brink."

Parsi said that based on his conversations with the Iranian officials, he believes the failure of the United States to even respond to the offer had an impact on the government. Parsi, who is writing a book on Iran-Israeli relations, said he believes the Iranians were ready to dramatically soften their stance on Israel, essentially taking the position of other Islamic countries such as Malaysia. Instead, Iranian officials decided that the United States cared not about Iranian policies but about Iranian power.

The incident "strengthened the hands of those in Iran who believe the only way to compel the United States to talk or deal with Iran is not by sending peace offers but by being a nuisance," Parsi said.

© 2006 The Washington Post Company

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/17/AR2006061700727_pf.html

Offline magooch

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2006, 04:30:12 AM »
Oh wow, we should impeach Bush and throw ourselves at the mercy of the great Persians.  Get real!!
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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2006, 12:17:56 PM »
It was a lost opportunity.  If an enemy honestly wants to discuss possible solutions to differences you cannot ignore them.  

There a few facts that we can count on:

1. We can't kick the whole world's butt, at least not simultaneously.
2. Everybody will not love us and some people will have different cultural values than us.  This will not change no matter how many embargos or brigades of infantry we bring to bear.
3.  We cannot force every nation to be a mini-America, heck we're having a time keeping America America.  Too many people wanting government guarantees that they won't be insulted or put in a situation where they might miss a meal.

just my 2c,
Ian
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Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


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Offline DWTim

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2006, 04:40:46 PM »
Sorry, but I just can't trust the Wash Post. I'm going to have to pick this apart.

Quote
and Iran did not have a functioning nuclear program or a gusher of oil revenue from soaring energy demand.

I find this dubious. In fact, the timetable inferred by this arcticle is wrong. Iran announced its nuclear program in early February of 2003. The invasion of Baghdad started in April. Iran had already allowed UN inspectors access to its sites. Actually... Islamic Iran has been purchasing nuclear technology since the early 90s, the only difference here is that they've succeeding in setting up the enrichment process "in-house".  Google on Iran's nuclear program history to see all the articles about it.


Quote
While the Iranian approach has been previously reported, the actual document making the offer has surfaced only in recent weeks. Trita Parsi, a Middle East expert at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, said he obtained it from Iranian sources. The Washington Post confirmed its authenticity with Iranian and former U.S. officials.

The only named source for the document obtained it from unnamed Iranians, and it was corroborated by unnamed, "former" U.S. officials -- as opposed to current administration officials. The author isn't standing on solid ground.


Quote
Parsi said the U.S. victory in Iraq frightened the Iranians because U.S. forces had routed in three weeks an army that Iran had failed to defeat during a bloody eight-year war.

Well, again we have a problem with the chronology of events, and the fact that Iran was already cooperating with IAEA inspectors, if only in a limited capacity. That didn't change after the fall of Baghdad. You can simply deduce this using logic, since their program has advanced since then.


Quote
The document lists a series of Iranian aims for the talks, such as ending sanctions, full access to peaceful nuclear technology and a recognition of its "legitimate security interests."

This isn't even news. Iran was and is courting 'western' countries for the technology, including Russia. Conspicuously missing here is the mention that the materials used in making a warhead are the byproducts of conventional nuclear reactors. Iran is sitting on loads of oil. Why are they blowing tons of money on a nuclear program when their economy is so underdeveloped? It would be cheaper and faster to utilize fossil fuels.

This is why the Bush administration didn't make any overtures; the Iranians weren't (and are not now) saying anything new. Ahmadinejad is willing to discuss anything but the nuclear program. At this point, it's probably not too outlandish to speculate that he is purposely interfering in Iraq so he can use it as a bargaining chip.


Quote
with possible steps to be achieved at a first meeting and the development of negotiating road maps on disarmament, terrorism and economic cooperation.

This mess of a sentence deserves an award. I've never such abuse of the passive voice in writing. "Possible steps... to be achieved... development of... negotiating road maps..." Nope, don't see any promises there, so why is Bush obligated to behave differently than any previous president?


Quote
Current White House and State Department officials declined to comment further on the Iranian offer.

That tells us a whole lot.


Quote
He described the Iranian approach as part of a series of efforts by Iran to engage with the Bush administration. "I think there have been a lot of lost opportunities," he said, citing as one example a failure to build on the useful cooperation Iran provided in Afghanistan.

Iran is currently getting its way. They've got a package of incentives to look at, they have the attention of Europe as well. But they're not stopping their nuclear program, and they'll probably stall after the July deadline, too. Bush is much more accommodating than any previous president.


Come on guys, Bush can be a buffoon, but this way out there. We have a document inspected by a professor no one has heard of, verified by unnamed Iranian sources, supported by unnamed former U.S. officials, certified to be authentic by a Swiss embassador based on the included cover page. We've got a country that performed an act so unforgivable that we've cut off all diplomatic communication since 1979, but the weight is only on Bush's shoulders?

Since the Islamic revolution, Iran has tried to purchase a reactors on two occasions, and parts on two occasions, and ballistic missile technology on one occasion. The U.S. has attempted to interfere as best as possible, succeeding with suppliers in Ukraine and the Czech Republic. The whole of our "diplomacy" with Iran consisted of spying, discouraging other countries from assisting Iran with its nuclear program, and Clinton's embargo. This is all before Bush was elected.

Offline Casull

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2006, 08:35:56 PM »
Nice response DW.  I wonder why the Washington Post is "reporting" this load of s**t, and not the discovery of Sarin and nerve gas in Irag (read WMD's).  Actually the foregoing is rehtorical, as I do not "wonder" (I and anyone with their eyes open knows why).  After all, why would you want to report current news, when you can write a three year old editorial.
Aim small, miss small!!!

Offline magooch

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Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2006, 05:04:30 AM »
The article is just another Bush-bashing exercise and it's no surprise that you, TM7 have bought into it.  You don't like the President--Big Headline.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2006, 08:53:24 PM »
I would like to see the actual fax, not a newspaper report. Newspapers make Lawyers look like Saints, sorry I don't trust the lowlifes. If it turns out to be real then they will partner with some of the TV Whores to "show us the goods". We shall see but I doubt it. Bush has done some things that I don't like as well, but I am not on a hunt for crap. Be patient, worse leaders are on the way
to rescue us!!!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2006, 11:41:00 PM »
When oh when...are we going to realize that we cannot trust ANYTHING the Wash Post or NY Times has to say ?
   When a "newspaper of record" has stooped to the level where we must carefully examine each and every statement they make (to strain out lies of omission...and yes, lies of commission) as DWTim rightly did..then that newspaper is not worth the pulp it  is printed upon..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2006, 03:04:29 PM »
When oh when...are we going to realize that we cannot trust ANYTHING the Wash Post or NY Times has to say ?
   When a "newspaper of record" has stooped to the level where we must carefully examine each and every statement they make (to strain out lies of omission...and yes, lies of commission) as DWTim rightly did..then that newspaper is not worth the pulp it  is printed upon..
.
So, we should just forgetaboutit......???  The article may or may not be valid in total or in part. My point is it should be checked out.......it should be relatively easy to verify some of this...eg. with the Swiss ambassador's feedback, but the corporate media matrix is apparently going to drop this one and give a pass to the administration as we move ever closer to major war. Maybe I will try to contact the Swiss ambassador...? :-X  In any case, the article is indicative of how this administration and neocon advisors's operate, and so I wouldn't doubt that there is truth in it....we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe in General Powell's memoirs someday.

........................TM7

No, we don't have to let it pass, it will surface if true because of the millons of Bush haters & all of the major
media is in that group.  The article isn't indicative of anything in the admin. if it isn't true. No way will the media let it die even if we get into a major war, they are more worried about bashing Bush & have no concern
if ANYTHING they do endangers or hurts the moral of our troups.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2006, 01:02:06 AM »
  Oh Yeaah...
 
   From the NY Times to Le Monde....
     
   Whom do we trust more Wayne Gacey or Jeffrey Dauhmer ?...LOL
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2006, 09:30:52 AM »
You didn't ask me but, The Scriptures say that he is a liar & the father of it.
 When we search for the truth, we cannot get it from liars & besides, when Muslims talk or write to Non-Muslims they think it is OK to lie anyway as to them we are infidels & not real people. And most
newspapers think it OK to lie to anyone to promote their cause.

I thought the Israelis were attacked first but maybe not.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline WmRoy

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2006, 03:12:19 AM »
You cannot deal nor negotiate with a Muslim and especially not a fanatic (the President of Iran believes it is his destiny to bring about the end of the world and the return of the 12th Inman)!!!  Muslim's will only negotiate when they feel threatened or when they need time.  They will not negotate in good faith and they will not hold to their word.......... read the Koran, it is all spelled out in the Koran as to how to 'deal' with Infidels.

You will notice the twisted logic in his so called letter which is completely consistant with middle east thinking.  They are neither rational nor logical they have a hidden agenda and lie and twist words and logic to try and win any upper hand.  Don't believe this because I'm telling you........... believe it because this is what they are taught by their 'unholy book' the Koran which I believe everyone should look at so the hatred and evil contained in it's pages can be exposed.

God Help Us all..............................

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2006, 03:48:10 AM »
Good morning TM7

Yes Sir it is hard to sort through deception sometimes, no doubt. And sadly, some who say they are
Christians do this as well, but it is an accepted matter of practice with Muslims, big difference. It is
up to us & and to ask for guidance from  above to be aware of this.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2006, 05:41:26 AM »
Since we're discussing the Iranian situation here: Has anyone else heard the rumors that the rocket attacks on Israeli ships were Iranian ordnance fired by Iranian soldiers? No one is citing a source for this, so we may take it with a grain of salt. I have a hard time believing that the Iranian government would be so crass as to do it themselves instead of through Hizbollah.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2006, 06:42:46 AM »
Yes, I have heard this too & I would agree that it seems wild that the Iranians would do this at first
glance. But there are 3 reasons that they would.
1. Their leader is a nut case.
2. They appear to want a War right now & they feel we are stretched thin & they want the Arabs to unite now. I only agree with Bill O'Reilly about half of the time & he has talked about this alot lately & unfortunately I agree with him on this one.
3. An insane hatred of Jews fueled by their evil religion.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2006, 03:13:57 PM »
Iranian ordnance fired by Iranian soldiers

I heard on the news that Israel claimed to have information that it was Iranian miltary advisors guiding the others through the launching.  I first heard that it was an unmanned drone loaded with explosives, then later it changed to a radar guided missile... or was that a seperate incident?

Do I trust the media?  Nope.  Interesting reading tho.

Ian
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Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


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Offline WmRoy

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2006, 04:42:27 PM »
NS....mos'lems do not have a monopoly on deception in my view. They are not a secularized state, like us; i.e. their state, government and religion are combined---kinda like ours use to be to a degree. What they want is the West out the Middle East, and to be left to use the last of their black gold the way they want to, rather than going backward 300 years when the oil is gone.. Don't get me wrong....I don't necessarily trust them either. But then again I don't trust much of anybody these days here or there as deception rules. Just imagine how nice life would be if water were fuel.
.
DWTim....welll yes... rockets raining down on Israel no doubt come from Iran and other Mos'lem countries by way of Russian, Chinese, N. Korean, and even Euorpean/American design and parts. Probably Iranian advisors are deployed as well. Not shocking to me since they have thier buddies to watch out for just like us.I thought Almahdinejad's take, as an historian, on the historic legitmacy of Israel was unique.

.................................TM7




I guess it all depends on how far back in history you want to go........... and one thing is for sure there never was a Palestine............. seems to me that agreeing with the Crazy Iranian doesn't put you in real stable company!  But if you think they just want to be left alone then you are in for a sorry surprise or didn't you read about his speach to the UN or any of the interviews that he's given concerning the 12th Inman or how Israel needs to be destroyed?  He certainly doesn't want to just be left alone!!!

Muslims may not be the only ones who deceive but it is they who have taken it to an art form........... and in case you haven't read it already it's what they are supposed to do when dealing with infidels.

Seems to me you're for anything that hurts Pres. Bush and Israel and if it hurts them both at the same time all the better.......... forget about the fate of the rest of the world I guess.............. and forget if you are assisting a Mad Man in his plans to end all civilization!

The Iranians are getting close to over stepping and if in fact the military is over stretched then they are true 'fools' because our only option will be to vaporize their sorry country..................it's time we all realize that their leader has a death wish for the world!

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #17 on: July 17, 2006, 04:51:33 PM »
If it weren't for the West the Muslims would still be hearding their animals over their Black Gold &
would not be aware of it's presense.

This idea that they just want to be left alone is very telling. Ah, the old Liberal view it is all our fault.
It appears that WMRoy nailed it & I regret that.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2006, 04:51:39 PM »
  TM7;
 
    Youa sked me what the scriptures say about Satan's greatest scam....well here goes, take it or leave it.
   The greatest scam he ever pulled off was done very early on (Genesis ch 3) wherein he convinced Eve to partake of the "forbidden fruit" and got us all into this mess of having to deal with sin.
 
   His other great scam is not yet accomplished;
 
      As mentioned earlier, Satan is the "father of lies"...yes, sometimes Christians lie or sin in some other way.
 All men are sinners, and Christians are not a complete exception..we are still made of weak flesh..but a Christian should show a marked difference from "the world". Of course, there are some that claim to be Christian...Just as easily as I could claim to be an astronaught..

   The difference of Satan's type of lying is that he makes a regular practice and an art form of it !

    Living among a people as a friend and fellow citizen, while planning their murder and destruction is an exquisite art form of lying...

   Approaching a crowd of folks in a pizza parlor...or children in a day-care center in order to blow one's self and the innocent into a firey death, is deceit and lying on a grand scale.

        In Scripture, it is quite clear that Satan knew full well that his chances of winning the struggle between himself and Jesus Christ was over...on the very morning that Jesus was resurrected.

   Being filled with hate...and wanting to take as many as possible to Hell with himself..he started to plan a new struggle which although he could not win...would doom millions in the future.

Satan's big scam, continued...

      JUST SUPPOSE.. that in order to complete his plan (Satan being the "great pretender") Satan decides he will imitate God...by building his own "counterfeit church" and being a false Messiah.
  So at a time several hundred years after his defeat, he gets one willing servant to help him do just that..build his organization...and call that servant a prophet.
   
   Soon, this new religion is sweeping parts of the world but unlike the God whose very being is love, who says , " Here's my plan, you may take it or leave it."...this new religion says "here's our plan, take it or we kill you !"

      Satan's plan for the end times is to raise as much death, destruction and take as many souls with him to Hell as he can and for a time, he will rule this world..what is left of it.

       If he is to rule the world...he will need a whole hierarchy to assist him...If he were to build a false church, he would have his hierarchy in place for hundreds of years, just waiting to be put to work.
   
   Scripture says that in the latter days that Satan will come as a false Messiah and many will be fooled by him.
  This false Messiah will imitate the Christ in many ways..charismatic, intelligent, very gifted in persuasion and will appear to do many "signs and wonders". He will even have a false prophet introduce him into this world....and at one point, fake a "ressurection" after a head wound...

   He will rule as a "benevolent dictator" for 3.5 years and many, even in the Holy land will, fall for his lies...then he will show his true colors and turn into the worst and bloodiest tyrant the world has ever seen.

   Special targets of his fury will be newly converted Christians, the only kind that will be on earth, and those Jews that had formerly swallowed his lies..

 His favorite way of killing his "enemies" will be by beheading. God's enemies seem to like that way of killing God's people. (Mark 6:27 &, Luke 9:9 and Rev. 20:4)
 
  Now I ask you...does this sound anything like any organization/religion in existence today ?

  Is there a hateful, leader in the world's nations today, that is in hopes of ushering in this false Messiah and even now speaks openly about it ? 

  Is there a false religion that seems to be driven by an unnatural hatred ?

   Is there a false religion that seems to relish beheadings in particular ?

   
     So why would the world turn so nasty, so suddenly ?
   As the anti-Christ (counterfiet Christ) comes to power. the Christians wil be taken (raptured) out of this worldly mess. With the Christians goes the Holy Spirit who historically, has been a restraining force against Satan.

   So now, the one who formerly "restrained"...is no longer doing so ( 2 Thess. 2:1-14) the King James version uses the term s let and letteth..which curiously, means the same as restrain/restrains.

        I recall a very poignant scene from Mel Gibson's "The Passion"...where the unrepentant malefactor on the cross, obeying Satan's commands, blasphemes Jesus and dies..the appreciative Satan (illustrated as a raven) then picks out his loyal servants eyes...

      Each time i see a "stupidcide" bomber doing his lying deed..I can visualize old Satan picking out his eyes before consigning him to the flames..

   Perhaps that is why those in Hell will , in spite of the heat..be forever in darkness (Jude 13).

         Note: I'm not accusing any religion..just giving illustrations and asking you to decide...

   Perhaps, as some say, a religion has been "highjacked" by a minority within...if that is the case, it is high time for the majorioty to excise that wayward minority or have a "reformation" and help the rest of the world fight the "highjackers" ..as some may well be doing..in a surreptitious way...

   For those who feel their faith is being smeared...that is a good way to clear it's name..


If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #19 on: July 17, 2006, 05:03:59 PM »
Ironglow, well said!!!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2006, 12:58:38 AM »
Sure there was a Palestine! Herodotus talks about it, the Bible calls is "Philistia" - there are lots of mentions of it all over the ancient world.  The borders of just what constitutes Palestine were a bit blurry, though. Herodotus calls it the southern part of Syria, the Jews called it a narrow strip along the coast about where the Gaza Strip is today. Palestine was a moving concept, it seems!!

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2006, 02:01:02 AM »
TM7;

   I got shut down by a PC glitch while writing my last post..my reply to your question..

  I have finished it and you may want to re-read my last post.

   I can understand some of your frustrations with "W"..he is a bit too "spendy" on social programs for my liking also..but then no politician ever gets to the oval office in pristine condition..or without some kind of strings..
  Yes; unless they have some special info (and they well may)..it is fruitless to "talk' with Iran, Syria or N Korea and there IS NO talking with Hamas or Hezbollah...

  I often have to look at the "lesser of two evils" when making choices..
   
  What attributes are truly "conservative" ? Here are some as I see it !

 1) Protecting the ENTIRE first amendment

 2) Vigorously defending the second amendment...I mention these two amendments, since they seem to be most under attack.

 3) Protecting ALL American's lives...including the pre-born

 4) Limit government (and it's control)

 5) Do not burden citizens with excessive taxes

 6) stand tall for traditional values: God, family, marriage and decency

 7) Do not be inclined to try to meld this nation into some kind of "global community"...that is just an excuse to make our citizens work even harder...supporting someone across the world whose "culture" says they don't have to work..

 8) Speak softly but carry a big stick...keep America strong above all...while still dealing fairly, but firmly, with other nations

 9) A conservative will appoint judges to high courts that will maintain the traditional values mentioned in line #6 above.

 10) A conservative leader leads by example in his private life as well...showing respect for traditional (conservative) values and beliefs..

  ...Observing the contenders for the US Presidency in the last two elections and comparing their values and vision for America...I believe you must still conclude that you correctly voted for "W"..even if it was a "lesser of two" choice...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Online ironglow

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2006, 03:48:19 PM »
...But if Gore or Kerry had been elected, we would have missed on ALL points...LOL
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2006, 05:01:02 PM »
...But if Gore or Kerry had been elected, we would have missed on ALL points...LOL

No rational mind could argue with you on this. I want it all & all is not too much to ask since all of your points are basic to the America we once knew. Because of this I am not happy with Pres. Bush & a bunch of the Republicans in Congress. You can look at immigration & other issues & see that SOME
of the Republicans have it right.

But the Socialist Democraps are Liberal & stupid in TOTAL unison. They are bossed by the crazy left fringe, beyond hope & running on zero cylinders. It is obvious if these idiots ever get a 2/3 hold on
Congress & the Presidency, 100% of our rights will be gone in a blink with no stomach to defend this
country at all. 
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Online ironglow

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2006, 12:31:13 AM »
Right Nomo...

  As I prefaced my post, no PERFECT person has ever graced the oval office..our vote is to the most qualified...

 With that in mind and keeping in mind recalling who Bush's two opponents were..I still must quibble with TM7s last reply...where he said i was remiss with points 3 1,3,4,5,& 7..

  Let's review these given points:

 1) Protecting the ENTIRE first amendment:
         Noone has gagged the press..so the first part is a non-starter..
  For the second part..protecting our freedom to speak about our faith and practice it...

       Is there anyone on God's green earth that thinks for one moment that Gore or Kerry would have protected this precious freedom better ?

  3)Protecting ALL American lives, including the pre-born..
   
   Bush has protected American lives by waguing a war on terror that he did not start any more tham Israel started the present conflict.
   
  Gore & Kerry have both already stated that they would cut-and-run...then stay home and play rope-a-dope with the terrorists here at home.
     
  As for the PRE-BORN Gore and Kerry would be to them as the Hezbollah would like to be to the Israelis .

  4) Limited government..
   Remembering that all my posts have been comparative in nature :

   ...Does anyone here really think either Gore or Kerry would have reined in the government more...
  especially since the unions, including the Civil Service Unions ...own the Democrats !

  5) Taxes...President Bush has reduced federal taxes for all who pay taxes...pretty simple and equitable formula...If you pay a little taxes, you get a little tax cut..I you pay a lot of taxes, you get a larger tax cut..If you pay NO TAXES..you get no tax cut !

   Any other "graduated" formula would be edging toward Communism..

  6) Keeping us out of the "Global Community"...very simple..

  The Democrats generally, LOVE the UN and most all it's ideas such as One World govt and
all those phony "human rights" organizations it spawned.
   
     Democrats especially like the UN's new move toward "Global Gun Control".. After all, it has been Democrats that have "led the charge" in efforts to outlaw handguns, outlaw all guns in certain cities and it was democrats that wanted to outlaw ammo...and it was a Democrat that wanted..now listen carefully...wanted EVERY CARTRIDGE serial numbered and all our reloading powder laced with "taggants".

  Then there's the " Kioto Accord" a plan designed to cripple America's productivity and reduce our employment levels. This accord if signed, would have put us under the strictest "environmental" controls in the world, while placing NO controls upon such countries as China and India..

   Gore would have signed the Kioto Accord in a heartbeat..as would have Kerry.
 Then we could buy 100% Chinese products...as long as we STILL COULD BUY...after all..no job, no money..

    Worth thinking about !!!

If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #25 on: July 19, 2006, 10:00:49 AM »
WELL SAID TM7..........

It still amazes me how you've figured it out the same way I have........that makes you a pretty smart fellow in my book.

We live in a fascist police state, complete with cameras on the corner and birds in the air.......

There is no power the Federal government is not willing to assume......if they want the power, they get it........

Mr. Bush is the best democrat that's ever been elected....the very first thing he did was cut a deal with Teddy Kennedy.......I still don't know why the democrats don't love him.......he's spent far more money than any democrat......

The House of Representatives seems to have a grip on what mainstream america wants.......but I have no clue why the Senate can't get there act togather........

We'll soon be flying the baby blue flag of the UN as soon as we all embrace multi-culturalism and diversity........then it's the demise of the middle class world wide........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #26 on: July 19, 2006, 03:12:39 PM »
They don't love him because he did not grab our guns like the Democraps tried but could not because they did not have the votes.
They hate him because as he showed with his veto that he is not eager to kill babies.
They hate him because he doesn't respect the rights of Terrorists like the Democraps do.
They hate him because I and workers like me got a tax cut.

I am very disapointed with Pres. Bush but to watch the way that the Democraps hate the man & think at the same time that they are the same is weird indeed.

My brother gave me info about the Constitution Party & I may have found a new home. But rest assured that no Democrap will EVER get my vote, I know their platform & they don't stray far from it.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: Washington Post, page 16, Bush and the Iranians
« Reply #27 on: July 19, 2006, 05:32:01 PM »
...And I'm done discussing this issue...
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)