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Offline wijim

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an ignorant member question
« on: June 30, 2006, 08:09:22 AM »
ok...so im pretty ignorant on handguns.  heres my situation...

i'll be on an archery elk hunt in griz and cougar country.  i'll be carrying my camp on my back as well as my bow.  my question is....i have a marlin guide gun in 45/70, and have the availabilty to borrow a .357 mag s/w revolver for bear protection.  the handgun will offer less weight and more portability...the 45/70 will be larger and more cumbersome...i know the 45/70 will kill very well with 405 cast bullets.  i dont know enough about handguns to know how it compares in the close range protection situation.  obviously i dont intend to use either one....but must be prepared to use something in case of emergency.  which one should i go with.  if i choose the 357, i'll have 2 months to familiarize myself with it.  the 45/70 i am very comfortable with using.  but as i said..its gonna add alot of weight and bulk to my pack frame and may not be as readily accessible.

Offline Redhawk1

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2006, 09:34:49 AM »
I know no matter what I say it is going to turn into one of them handgun vs rifle debates. But here I go. I would take the handgun, just for the fact of the ease of getting to it.  You are likely never going to need it but it sure makes you feel a lot better.  :D
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Offline wijim

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2006, 09:38:30 AM »
Quote from: Redhawk1
I know no matter what I say it is going to turn into one of them handgun vs rifle debates. But here I go. I would take the handgun, just for the fact of the ease of getting to it.  You are likely never going to need it but it sure makes you feel a lot better.  :D


cool..thanks.  im not looking for a debate on whats better.  the one that can protect me is obviously best.  i just dont know about 357 magnums....its the only one i could feasibly borrow or use.  many folks say or have said nuttin less than a 44 mag.

Offline shermbob

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2006, 09:59:34 AM »
You are going to get different answers from almost everybody on this one. Mine is leave the handgun home only because you are not familiar with it. Use the rifle in your words you are comfortable with it. All a hand gun will do for you is give you a false sense of security unless you put hours and LOTS of rounds thru it . My opion for what its worth.
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Offline Redhawk1

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2006, 12:05:27 AM »
Quote from: wijim
Quote from: Redhawk1
I know no matter what I say it is going to turn into one of them handgun vs rifle debates. But here I go. I would take the handgun, just for the fact of the ease of getting to it.  You are likely never going to need it but it sure makes you feel a lot better.  :D


cool..thanks.  im not looking for a debate on whats better.  the one that can protect me is obviously best.  i just dont know about 357 magnums....its the only one i could feasibly borrow or use.  many folks say or have said nuttin less than a 44 mag.


I was going to put the 44 Mag or above in my post also. If I were in bear country my 5 inch 460 or my 4 inch 500 mag would be on my hip.  :D
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Offline rockbilly

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2006, 10:00:30 AM »
:D Make sure you check the laws of the state you will be hunting.  Most states have a law against having a firearm of any type in your possession while archery hunting.  Better safe than sorry. :roll:

Offline Old Griz

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2006, 11:18:55 AM »
:cb2: I always get riducled for mentioning this, but check out this web site, too. This is a specially formulated pepper spray for bears, and is not the same thing as the pepper spray you can buy for protection against criminals.

www.udap.com/

In the back country I'm always armed with at least a .44 mag. But I also carry this, too.
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Offline Gun Runner

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2006, 09:14:03 PM »
When I go in the woods my 44 mag is on my hip. It dosent matter ifin I have a 22 rifle,my 30/06, 45/70 or 12 ga. ( dont bow hunt) Ifin I have set my rifle down and have moved away from it and need fire power I have the 44 at hand. It will stop anything that crawls, walks on 2 or 4 legs.

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Offline MS Hitman

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2006, 05:55:16 PM »
I'm not suggesting you willfully break the law, but I can say that my life is worth more than the respect I'd give a law that says I can't carry a firearm to protect myself.  

The .357 would more likely be with you than a rifle.  Borrow the .357 and put some rounds through it before you go on your hunt.

Offline corbanzo

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an ignorant member question
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2006, 08:28:55 PM »
Here's another for the .357, but just make sure you find the biggest cast bullets that are available.  I've seen quite a few kicking around for protection rounds which seem respectable for bears.  

Plus if you are bow hunting, you would most likely have to strap the rifle across your back, while holding the bow, which makes getting to the gun a problem if needed quickly.
"At least with a gun that big, if you miss and hit the rocks in front of him it'll stone him to death..."

Offline Lloyd Smale

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2006, 09:20:35 AM »
sorry but in my opinion you dont have enough time to get proficient enought with a handgun to stake your life on it and even if you did id leave the .357 at home and step up to at least a 44.
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Offline Swamp Yankee

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2006, 02:19:25 PM »
 There is no right answer....With a 357 and a bear, shot placement is everything.If you don't hit him in a vital area things could go bad quick. With a cougar I would n't have a problem with the 357.  A 45/70 will drop anything in North America, but if the rifle is tied up in your pack will you have the time to get it out? I would feel a bit safer with a 44 mag [or something larger]  Just keep in mind bear are one of the few animals that can hunt  back.  My choice .....a large cal hand gun.....good luck ...Jim

Offline jerkface11

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2006, 08:22:10 AM »
 Since you said you aren't familiar with the pistol don't take it. You're better off with the .45-70 you know how to shoot than you are with a .357 you don't. Unless of course you have time to get to know the pistol. Then i'd go with a nice heavy cast bullet loaded hot.

Offline rockbilly

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2006, 02:04:13 PM »
wijim.  MS Hitman said  "I'm not suggesting you willfully break the law, but I can say that my life is worth more than the respect I'd give a law that says I can't carry a firearm to protect myself."

You didn't say where you would be hunting, but I assure you, you don't want to get caught in N.M. or CO. with a firearm of any type during archery season.  They are very considerate of your safety if you break their game laws, fact, they put in a safe place away from those things that might harm you.

A friend and I were dove hunting near Ft Summner N.M. He shot at a dove near a pond, when he shot several ducks flew away from the pond, a game warden watching from a distance arrested him and put him in jail, said he shot at the ducks.  They took his truck (almost brand new), gun, fined him $2500. and restricted him from ever again gettting a N.M. hunting license.  He spent four days in jail waiting to see the judge.

As I said, I would look very close at the state laws, and abide by them.  There is always a possibility of having a problem with a bear, but it is very remote.  Not worth the chance.

Offline Savage

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2006, 08:34:32 AM »
I don't bow hunt, but if I did, I'd hate to have to pack along a hangun as well. There had been some good advice on checking the loacal laws before making a decision to carry any firearm along while bow hunting. If I had to choose between the handgun/rifle for your application, the choice would be a handgun. In bear country it would be something larger than the .357!
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Offline MikeH

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #15 on: July 19, 2006, 11:53:36 PM »
 If it was me the rifle is out of the question. Too heavy and bulky. I'd take the .357 and practice. If its working for you take it if not dont. In any case do like OLD GRIZ says and get a can of bear spray.

Offline jhm

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2006, 03:49:35 AM »
Co. allow a handgun to be carried while bow hunting for Elk or they did 2 yrs ago, but the advice of checking with the state game laws is the correct thing to do as you hear LOTS of stuff on the net and the laws keep changing from yr. to yr. :D   JIM

Offline jamaldog87

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #17 on: July 20, 2006, 07:38:37 AM »
i would have bear spary. the 357mag is good but i would not put my like on it for bear. i have seen hog get shot with a 357mag and keep on comeing.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #18 on: July 20, 2006, 08:04:33 AM »
i would have bear spary. the 357mag is good but i would not put my like on it for bear. i have seen hog get shot with a 357mag and keep on comeing.

And just how much hunting experience do you have?  Shooting at an animal and hitting a non-vital area is not going to stop it, and bear spray is not going to do much for you either.
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Offline Questor

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #19 on: July 20, 2006, 08:13:05 AM »
I read an article on bear attacks in Outdoor Life not too long ago and the statistics are in favor of the guys who use bear spray. Pepper spray is much more likely to stop and turn a bear than a firearm. The difference was huge. Spray was effective in 90+ percent of attacks while firearms were effective stoppers around 40%. Don't quote me on the numbers, but the difference was that big. Spray is also handier than most firearms because it's worn on the waist in a holster. My understanding is that spray is the favorite among people who really need to worry about bear attacks.  This was counterintuitive enough for me to check into it further and the reality does seem to favor the spray.

Don't shoot (or spray) me. I'm just the messenger.

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Offline Old Griz

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #20 on: July 20, 2006, 05:47:20 PM »
I agree, but get ready for all the stupid comments about seasoning the meat before they eat, the wind just blows it back in your face, etc., etc., etc.
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Offline PaulS

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #21 on: July 20, 2006, 06:05:18 PM »
If this is a guided hunt your guide will carry "protection" for the hunt. Most states won't let you carry a firearm when hunting with a bow. There are some exceptions but if you don't have a guide then contact the game department to find out. You can lose it all if you are caught hunting with a bow and carrying a firearm.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2006, 12:31:43 AM »
I agree, but get ready for all the stupid comments about seasoning the meat before they eat, the wind just blows it back in your face, etc., etc., etc.

Don't need to say it, you already did that for us.
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Offline Questor

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2006, 01:41:05 AM »
This whole bear defense thing is typical of "what you don't know can't hurt you" thinking.  The science is there now. Why is there any further room for speculation?
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Offline PaulS

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2006, 12:39:09 AM »
This whole bear defense thing is typical of "what you don't know can't hurt you" thinking.  The science is there now. Why is there any further room for speculation?

Because people like to speculate and have a hard time believing aanything that they have not witnessed first hand.
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Offline Old Griz

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2006, 09:59:30 AM »
Because people like to speculate and have a hard time believing aanything that they have not witnessed first hand.

Fortunately, the number of people who have witnessed first hand (and survived) a bear attack on this forum can probably be counted on one finger or less!

I pray that keeps up. Would sure hate to lose anybody.
Griz
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Offline PaulS

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2006, 02:50:12 PM »
Amen to that Griz!
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Offline WNY_Whitetailer

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #27 on: July 23, 2006, 07:08:27 PM »
This whole bear defense thing is typical of "what you don't know can't hurt you" thinking.  The science is there now. Why is there any further room for speculation?

Because people like to speculate and have a hard time believing aanything that they have not witnessed first hand.

Amen Brother Paul...My thoughts exactly...All the comments about other peoples opinions are really no necessary.  I don't know what will stop a bear so I can't comment...I bet a cinder block to the head might tickle them a little though.
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Offline Redhawk1

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #28 on: July 24, 2006, 12:54:32 AM »
You three can slap each other on the back as much as you want, but the reality  is, there is no way to practice for a bear attack.  All we can do as outdoors man is prepare mentally. No one really knows how they will act in such a situation, so speculating is all we have. Do you have any better advice as how to prepare for such a situation other than to speculate?

Here is a perfect example from another site.

Man (Freeper kanawa) stabs bear to death
The Record.com ^ | Jul 22, 2006 | MELINDA DALTON


Posted on 07/22/2006 5:30:03 PM PDT by kanawa


A Waterloo man and his dog made a harrowing escape from the clutches of a vicious black bear Thursday while portaging near Wawa, Ont.


Tom Tilley, 55, killed the nearly 200-pound bear by jumping on its back and stabbing the aggressive animal with a six-inch hunting knife after his dog alerted him and distracted the bear.


"Love is a very powerful emotion and my thought right away was, 'You're not going to kill my dog,' " Tilley said yesterday.


"I really consider my dog a hero. Without that first warning I would have had the bear clamping down on my neck."


Tilley had planned on spending 12 days portaging through the area near Wawa with his American Staffordshire, Sam.


Four days into the trip, as he was making his third trip back to the water near Abbey Lake to retrieve his gear, he heard his dog growl and noticed the bear closing in on him. He said he did what he's been taught to do when a bear is close -- he starting waving his arms and slowing started backing away from the animal.


The bear moved off the trail, but a few seconds later reappeared, cutting off Tilley's escape route.


"That's when I knew I had a serious problem . . . I was lunch," he said.


Sam, who was behind Tilley before the bear moved up the trail, was now between the bear and his owner. Instead of taking an aggressive stance, the dog stood sideways blocking the bear's route.


"The bear took a few steps down the trail and clamped its mouth on the back of my dog," Tilley said. "By attracting the bear's attention like that and distracting the bear from me it gave me the quick opportunity I needed to run around to the back of the bear, get on its back and with my knife start stabbing it."


Tilley had recently purchased the knife that would save his life after reading the story of Jacqueline Perry, the young Cambridge doctor who was killed by a bear last September.


Perry's husband attempted to fend off the animal with a Swiss Army Knife -- the only weapon he had.


"When I read the report about her death, it really hit home to me that these things are possible," Tilley said.


"I owe her husband a real debt of gratitude because if I hadn't heard her story and got that knife, I wouldn't be telling this story."


After making sure the animal was dead, Tilley realized he had suffered a wound to his hand and Sam had two puncture marks on his back. He needed to get help, but was a two-day portage away from civilization.


Dragging his canoe across the short portage, Tilley paddled for about an hour before he came across a pair of Americans who happened to have a satellite phone.


They called for help and two hours later, a cargo plane arrived to take Tilley back to Wawa for medical attention.


He was treated and released from hospital.


News of his feat passed quickly through the small community, with a population of just over 3,000.


"He had a lot of cojones to do what he did," said Brenda Grundt, who operates the local news site Wawa-news.com and drove Tilley two hours back to where he'd left his van after the incident.


LUCKY TO HAVE KNIFE


"It's pretty amazing. Here's a guy that wouldn't be here if he hadn't happened to have a knife on him."


As for Tilley, it wasn't until he was back in his van alone with Sam that he took in the gravity of the situation.


"I just thanked God I was alive and that my dog was alive and cried a bit, but they were tears of thanks and relief," he said.


The Ministry of Natural Resources has sent the bear's body to Guelph and Ottawa for testing.


"It's very unusual for a bear to attack a person (and) pretty amazing this gentleman was able to kill it just with a knife," said Jolanta Kowalski, spokes-person for the ministry.


Because Wawa doesn't have a veterinarian's office and a specialist wasn't available to treat his hand, Tilley decided to push through and make the long journey home that night.


Back in Waterloo, news of his experience trickled back to amazed friends and family. Despite the danger, Tilley said the incident hasn't erased his love of the outdoors.


"My daughter says I'm not allowed to go up there anymore," he said with a laugh. " But I left my canoe there knowing I'll have to go back to get it."
from We had already walked the portage trail twice and a pair of solo canoeists had passed through also, so there was no reason for a normal bear not to be warned of the presence of humans. On my third trip back for more gear Sam who was walking beside me started to growl. I turned around and there about 20 feet back was a big black stealthily closing in. I had heard nothing. Without Sam's warning, the first I may have known of the bear's presence may have been his jaws around my neck. I did what I was supposed to do, made myself appear bigger, made lots of noise and while facing the bear walked backwards. I had immediately unsheathed my knife and had it in hand. None of my actions were scaring away this bear and it kept approaching. I began to have an inkling that I had a problem here. The bear then went off the portage trail, through the bush, past me and came back on to the portage blocking off my retreat. Now I knew I had a serious problem. Sam who had been behind me was now in front in relation to the bear. I began moving backwards again in the opposite direction,waving my arms and making loud noises. Sam rather than facing the bear in aggressive posture was turned sideways blocking the bears movement forward. The bear from his slightly higher position on the trail came down and clamped his jaw on to Sam's back. I've been told the purpose of this is to snap the spine rendering the meal incapable of escape.
I've in the past discussed with my friend and breeder and even here on FR, what to do in the highly unlikely case of facing a predatory bear and it being momentarily distracted by my dog. The consensus was I should take advantage of the opportunity to escape, to validate my dog's sacrifice by saving my own life. But, boy, reality can sure be different than hypotheticals. While the motivation for my action was my love for Sam, my choice may have given me greater odds of survival than running away would have in this instance. I would have been running towards the end of the portage where my gear was but my canoe was still at the beginning of the portage. I had no way to truly escape the area and would have been left with the difficult possibility of facing this bear, when he was done with the appetizer, in a frontal attack armed only with the knife. What would I have done, offered him my one arm to chew on while I stabbed with the other? Of course none of this was going through my mind at the time, I only saw my beloved canine friend being attacked and an opportunity to stop it.

All thanks to God for seeing me and Sam through this safely. And while nothing can mitigate the loss of Dr.Perry, her husband has my deep gratitude for sharing his story with the media and motivating me to buy the knife.

And Sam....I've said many times in the past that he is a gift from God to me. He had already help 'save my life' by the opening up of my heart that resulted from his coming into my life, But now he has been instrumental too in saving my physical life. Folks that have heard the account are planning to apply for him to be inducted into the Purina Hall of Fame, I certainly believe he has shown himself worthy of that honor.


1 posted on 07/22/2006 5:30:04 PM PDT by kanawa
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Offline jro45

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Re: an ignorant member question
« Reply #29 on: July 24, 2006, 04:05:19 AM »
If I were you I'd get at least a 44 Mag. My self I have the 500 S&W but I beleave a 44 mag is alot better then a 357 for bear. Good Luck to you whatever you chose.