Today red or Blue, a true & hard rift is occuring !

[JBMauser]

Saw and ABC show last night.  The gist of the show was that as we debate issues we tend to go to the extreme and abandon middle ground and that the division between red and blue counties and red and blue states are galvanizing.  Things are not considered or debated as to what is best in general or for the country as it is buttressed by liberal emotional idealism and conservative logical practicality.  The point is that we are becoming more extreme and divided.  Can it happen again? can we have the Union of Nuvo Socialist East and West States (with Wisconsin and the multi nation state of Hawaii) and the annexed area in Canada formally know as Quebec, And the Republic of American Sovereign States which is all others.  Will our great grand children live under the RASS or the UNSEWS with a common currency knows as the BUCK.  With English being the common language for diplomacy and the suggested language in the UNSEWS which has it capital in New York City and its government seat in the new Annex buildings to the UN building on the East side NYC.  The capital of the RASS in Charlotte NC which passed laws to permit Bars that did not have to serve food and still serve spirits to accommodate the demands of the People who legislate for the free Americans and also the proximity to lake Norman and itÂ’s great Bass fishing.  Atlanta lost out on this point.  Can we see a “Soft Secession”  As the Nuvo Commie Socialists and New Age liberals flee to rid themselves of the mentally ill (probably from Mad Cow)  mid west and South.
The UNSEWS legalized Pot and a bunch of other drugs and agreed to leave the Union with no shots fired as they ejected the Military from their territories and confiscated all guns and SUVs in their territories.  Some fighting has occurred as most of Pennsylvania wished to join the Rass and Philly wished to remain with the Nuvos.

Just a thought.  JB

[Bush Master]

Yes, a hard rift is occurring and there is nothing anyone can do about it. 90% of Americans do not understand liberty or freedom and wish to impose their opinions on the rest of their neighbors via a government goon with a gun. The clear majority of Americans are now socialists and the only argument left is how much of it and in what order to finish imposing it.

[wncchester]

Yeah, the "extreme" ends of the spectrum, political liberals and conservatives, are moving apart and show little desire to compromise.  As a political conservative I have some strong ideas as to why that is.

First, as a conservative, I hold to the values that have brought this nation to greatness.  Conservatives do tolerate different points of view and politely listen as liberals (think Moore and Sheehan and Kennedy and Gore and Kerry, and the screamers in the congressional gallery, et al) experess contempt for us and the nation as a whole because we disagree with them on points of policy.  But the personal contempt on their part shows they have no intention of compromising with us!  For them, compromise means letting them have their way in every area and to what ever length they want to go. 

No? Who wants to remove/restrict our rights as gun owners while forgiving criminals, us or them?  (They are sort of quite on the gun issue today because it has gotten they hurt at the ballot box but they are seething underneath and will be on the move against us as soon as they can do it.)

Liberals hold "compromise" as a high value and iIt can be a good thing.  Past conservatives have allowed liberals to take control of our schools, the judiciary, the media, and, to a large degree, the government, but I cannot bring myself to agree with compromise on clearly wrong policies like gay marriage, partial birth, baby brain sucking abortion, envy taxation for loafer redistribution, social experiments in the military, total government control of education, seeking to take my tools for defense and recreation under the guise of crime control, forbidding any mention of Jesus in public while any other religion, profanity and pornography is smiled upon and trial lawyers happily corrupt our legal system by adding billions of dollars to our medical bills, ladders, guns, power tools, women's make-up, etc, with silly lawsuits.   Liberals don't want conservatives to speak in public at all.  (Don't confuse wackos demonstrating at the funerals of our GIs with real conservatives, please!)

Okay, compromise with views that are, in themselves, just matters of opinion is good.  But compromise between right and wrong is not.  If a criminal gang burst into your home, tied you, your wife and childern up and then began threating to kill you all would you want to compromise?  I mean, would you suggest that perhaps they would settle for raping your wife and daughter, breaking your arms and legs and blinding your son rather than killing you all?  I believe that the things todays "liberals" want the rest of us to agree to things in that vein and much of it would eventually work to destroy our nation.  So, are we moving apart, and where is the middle ground?  Yes but we conservatives who have moved, it is the liberals who have, in fact, gotten more insane each passing year. 

There was a time when even a Democrat president knew that a good economy wasn't based on high taxes on the business interests that were providing the best jobs!  Sadly, the Democrats used to be pretty social & political conservative at heart but that's no longer true.  Wackos now own that party, it has been bought and paid for by the mega-rich and they intend to use it to advance their looney ideas for social control of the rest of us.  They do that with taxes and taking away our constitutional liberties.

Not to say the Republicans have a shortage of liberal wackos but they are slightly in the minority, for now.

I'm not a Republican, not even sure what that even means anymore, but I'm for sure not a modern Democrat either.   The liberals will continue to use the Democrat Party to jam their social idiocy down my throat and enforce it by the power of police guns but I won't compromise on much more.  I will continue to stand on the same pricipals I have held for my 65 years while watching them move further and further thru the looking glass and into the land of Oz.

Jim <><

[nabob]

Oddly enough, liberals tend to see conservatives as having many of the same faults you relate.

Folks in the middle, like me, just wish all the finger-pointing would quit so we can maybe get back to being one nation again. Liberals and conservatives and their mutual disgust for each other are busily creating a lot of hard feeling that will take generations to get past. I can't think their war with each other is good news for the nation.

[victorcharlie]

Yes, a hard rift is occurring and there is nothing anyone can do about it. 90% of Americans do not understand liberty or freedom and wish to impose their opinions on the rest of their neighbors via a government goon with a gun. The clear majority of Americans are now socialists and the only argument left is how much of it and in what order to finish imposing it.

Yep.......

[JBMauser]

[Folks in the middle, like me, just wish all the finger-pointing would quit so we can maybe get back to being one nation again. Liberals and conservatives and their mutual disgust for each other are busily creating a lot of hard feeling that will take generations to get past. I can't think their war with each other is good news for the nation.

Nabob, I think the struggle is not only good it is necessary.  When I was a pup, there was an active Communist party that ran candidates for national elections and Socialists in the political scene as well. They are not visible any more and they are not gone, they have found their home in the Democrat party and are the fringe of the ultra liberals.  Soviet communists always thought that they would destroy us by taking advantage of our freedom and using it against us.  Today we have homeowner associations and town councils that act more like hard line communists.  They have a view that personal property is theirs to manage and for you and I to live in and use in the manner they outline and pay for the privilege (taxes).  you have no right to even fly an American flag on your property if they so deem.  The courts back them up.  I think the hard rift will come to a head and a snap back will occur, I am not sure where the snap back will end up.  The days of getting along are long gone when no one can agree on what the common good is or that you may need to earn a living from your home which is zoned residential and your are in a HOA.  I read somewhere where Bill Clinton had hatched a plan that went nowhere,  it was this.  If you paid $600 a month for your mortgage that you had for 15 years and you could rent your home to someone else today for $1200 a month he wanted to tax you on $600 a month income that you did not get but could have got but you got the “equity”. How do you get along with thinking like that?  JB

[nabob]

You go through the political process we've established in this country for making your desires known.

What does not do any good is calling people Socialists or commies or acting as if they are the Anti-Christ come to walk amongst us. All that does is make someone feel better by being able to scream at the opposition. The opposition is busily doing that to you. In the meantime, the folks in the middle, like me, worry more about the country than getting our fun times in by yelling at the opposition.

How about both sides putting aside their antics and acting like adults more interested in the good of the nation instead of railing at the opposition?

[victorcharlie]

I've posted this before but I think it needs posting again.

Read what Karl Marx said about it in 1848.


Read the 10 Planks of The Communist Manifesto to discover the truth and learn how to know your enemy...

Karl Marx describes in his communist manifesto, the ten steps necessary to destroy a free enterprise system and replace it with a system of omnipotent government power, so as to effect a communist socialist state. Those ten steps are known as the Ten Planks of The Communist Manifesto… The following brief presents the original ten planks within the Communist Manifesto written by Karl Marx in 1848, along with the American adopted counterpart for each of the planks. From comparison it's clear MOST Americans have by myths, fraud and deception under the color of law by their own politicians in both the Republican and Democratic and parties, been transformed into Communists.

Another thing to remember, Karl Marx in creating the Communist Manifesto designed these planks AS A TEST to determine whether a society has become communist or not. If they are all in effect and in force, then the people ARE practicing communists.

Communism, by any other name is still communism, and is VERY VERY destructive to the individual and to the society!!

The 10 PLANKS stated in the Communist Manifesto and some of their American counterparts are...

1. Abolition of private property and the application of all rents of land to public purposes.
Americans do these with actions such as the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution (1868), and various zoning, school & property taxes. Also the Bureau of Land Management (Zoning laws are the first step to government property ownership)

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
Americans know this as misapplication of the 16th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution, 1913, The Social Security Act of 1936.; Joint House Resolution 192 of 1933; and various State "income" taxes. We call it "paying your fair share".

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
Americans call it Federal & State estate Tax (1916); or reformed Probate Laws, and limited inheritance via arbitrary inheritance tax statutes.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
Americans call it government seizures, tax liens, Public "law" 99-570 (1986); Executive order 11490, sections 1205, 2002 which gives private land to the Department of Urban Development; the imprisonment of "terrorists" and those who speak out or write against the "government" (1997 Crime/Terrorist Bill); or the IRS confiscation of property without due process. Asset forfeiture laws are used by DEA, IRS, ATF etc...).

5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the state, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
Americans call it the Federal Reserve which is a privately-owned credit/debt system allowed by the Federal Reserve act of 1913. All local banks are members of the Fed system, and are regulated by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC) another privately-owned corporation. The Federal Reserve Banks issue Fiat Paper Money and practice economically destructive fractional reserve banking.

6. Centralization of the means of communications and transportation in the hands of the State.
Americans call it the Federal Communications Commission (FCC) and Department of Transportation (DOT) mandated through the ICC act of 1887, the Commissions Act of 1934, The Interstate Commerce Commission established in 1938, The Federal Aviation Administration, Federal Communications Commission, and Executive orders 11490, 10999, as well as State mandated driver's licenses and Department of Transportation regulations.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state, the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
Americans call it corporate capacity, The Desert Entry Act and The Department of Agriculture… Thus read "controlled or subsidized" rather than "owned"… This is easily seen in these as well as the Department of Commerce and Labor, Department of Interior, the Environmental Protection Agency, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, Bureau of Mines, National Park Service, and the IRS control of business through corporate regulations.

8. Equal liability of all to labor. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
Americans call it Minimum Wage and slave labor like dealing with our Most Favored Nation trade partner; i.e. Communist China. We see it in practice via the Social Security Administration and The Department of Labor. The National debt and inflation caused by the communal bank has caused the need for a two "income" family. Woman in the workplace since the 1920's, the 19th amendment of the U.S. Constitution, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, assorted Socialist Unions, affirmative action, the Federal Public Works Program and of course Executive order 11000.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries, gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equitable distribution of population over the country.
Americans call it the Planning Reorganization act of 1949 , zoning (Title 17 1910-1990) and Super Corporate Farms, as well as Executive orders 11647, 11731 (ten regions) and Public "law" 89-136. These provide for forced relocations and forced sterilization programs, like in China.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Americans are being taxed to support what we call 'public' schools, but are actually "government force-tax-funded schools " Even private schools are government regulated. The purpose is to train the young to work for the communal debt system. We also call it the Department of Education, the NEA and Outcome Based "Education" . These are used so that all children can be indoctrinated and inculcated with the government propaganda, like "majority rules", and "pay your fair share". WHERE are the words "fair share" in the Constitution, Bill of Rights or the Internal Revenue Code (Title 26)?? NO WHERE is "fair share" even suggested !! The philosophical concept of "fair share" comes from the Communist maxim, "From each according to their ability, to each according to their need! This concept is pure socialism. ... America was made the greatest society by its private initiative WORK ETHIC ... Teaching ourselves and others how to "fish" to be self sufficient and produce plenty of EXTRA commodities to if so desired could be shared with others who might be "needy"... Americans have always voluntarily been the MOST generous and charitable society on the planet.

Do changing words, change the end result? ... By using different words, is it all of a sudden OK to ignore or violate the provisions or intent of the Constitution of the united States of America??

The people (politicians) who believe in the SOCIALISTIC and COMMUNISTIC concepts, especially those who pass more and more laws implementing these slavery ideas, are traitors to their oath of office and to the Constitution of the united States of America... KNOW YOUR ENEMY ...Remove the enemy from within and from among us.

VOTE LIBERTARIAN, the only political party in America that still firmly supports and diligently abides by the Constitution of the united States of America.

None are more hopelessly enslaved, as those who falsely believe they are free....

[JBMauser]

.

What does not do any good is calling people Socialists or commies or acting as if they are the Anti-Christ come to walk amongst us. All that does is make someone feel better by being able to scream at the opposition. The opposition is busily doing that to you. In the meantime, the folks in the middle, like me, worry more about the country than getting our fun times in by yelling at the opposition.

Nabob, calling a spade a spade is not a taunt, calling them progressives or liberals is smoke and mirrors in some cases.  How can you deal with those who show no interest in the rights of the individual to own and use property if you do not identify their goals to remove those rights and place them in the hands of the few. 

My question to you is this, if you and I have different ideas on what is good for the country why can't we argue about that.  My point is that more and more people who used to be in the middle are starting to see more clearly what each side sees as "good for the country goals" to ultimately be and they are choosing one and rejecting the other and digging their heals in. 

you can have creeping socialism over take capitalism but the only snap back from socialism to capitalism is a revoloutin or just short of same.  Many are looking at China to see how it digests a little capitalism,  The USSR had trouble with it.

There are those who if left to their own devices would make every one of us criminals by passing laws making something we have always done illegal.  Could be making your child finish the food on their plate, child abuse.  or spitting on the ground, Public health issue.  And put you in jail and take away all your guns as a fellon or something.  The one I am waiting for is smoking in your own home with other non smokers and children in the house.  That should be good for 5 years at least. 

The point of the TV show I saw was the hardening or opinions.  What they failed to discuss was the polarity of the goals of the various groups.  JB

[nabob]

You say you are calling a spade a spade but that's what they left says when they call you a retrograde NeoNazi. Neither of you are looking to persuade or convince the other. All that is happening is people are making themselves feel good by yelling at the other side.

Politicians love this sort of nonsense because they can ensure their continued election by their newly whipped-up base of support. What they hope is that you don't notice that there isn't much difference between Democrats or Republicans. Both want to first of all ensure their own career at your expense. Buying into their line of bull is what we do when we focus on yelling at each other instead of working out our differences.

By the way, I've voted Libertarian for some years now. I don't favor either major party and I'm not going to cooperate with their agendas by allowing them to distract me. That's what I figure they are doing when they start trying to get us yelling at each other and focusing on how much we hate the other side. 

[wncchester]

Well, guess some folks are willing to compromise right vs. wrong an effort to just get along. 

But not the hard-core Democrats.  Just ask 90% + liberal Senator Liberman; no one can suggest those liberals are willing to cut any slack to any of their own who stray from the Soros/Kennedy/Moore/McKinney/ et al, goup-think liberal positions so how or why might the rest of us expect to intelligently "compromise" with them? 

Mr. Neville Chamberlin once compromised with obvious evil in an attempt to achieve "..peace in our time."  Didn't work tho, he just delayed the storm for a brief time but that acutally made fixing things much harder on about 50 million people before it was all done.  But, on the other hand, as a good moderate politician, the very Politically Correct Mr. Chamberlin really tried to be nice and I guess that counts for something.  Or does it?  Oh well.....

[nabob]

Our political system was designed to be a series of compromises, and what exactly constitutes "right" vs. "wrong" is often a matter of opinion. We each take those opinions to the political arena where we are often forced to compromise in order to get most of what we want.

Compromise is not a dirty word. It is the nature of our political system.

With regard to Neville Chamberlain, viewing the opposition as a bunch of Nazis is part of the problem these days. Neither side wants to admit that the opposition is comprised of fellow Americans. They'd prefer to paint each side as budding Hitlers.