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Offline ransom

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h 4831
« on: July 04, 2006, 10:25:05 AM »
Why is hodgons new data for rem 7 mag 3 to 5 gr. less than the no. 24 manual  to me it seems they are trying to get us to switch from a outstanding powder to get more velosity from there newer powders where an I going wrong.
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Offline PaulS

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2006, 11:04:37 AM »
Ransom,
If you need an answer to your question I would suggest that you contact Hodgdon. They are very good about getting back to those who ask questions. We have no idea why the change was made. We can guess that it has to do with the newer piezo-electric measuring systems providing a more accurate picture of the pressure curve. It could be that the powder has undergone some minor change that requires a lighter load or that the components that Hodgdon was using have changed and required a reduction in loading. It might be that the load was hot enough to become a liability concern and they reduced it for that reason. I am sure they will tell you if you ask. Without an answer from them we can only guess.
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PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline longwinters

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2006, 06:42:33 AM »
I would be very interested in what Nosler says about that.  Please post their response.

Long
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Offline PaulS

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2006, 12:30:44 AM »
Longwinters,

Why would Nosler have a comment on a load from Hodgdon?

I know that you can get information from Sierra on loads that are not with their components but I didn't know that Nosler would do the same thing.
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PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2006, 08:45:10 AM »
If you take a look at the Speer manual from 30 years ago the recommended powder charges are cut back.  Speer even recommends that you dump your old manuals.  Like I would! ;)
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Offline PaulS

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2006, 06:42:00 PM »
I wonder how much the components have changed in thirty years.
I know that we have got better pressure mesuring devices and techniques than we did thirty years ago.
I also know that there are cheaper made guns out there today than there was thirty years ago. There are too many things that we don't have knowledge of to think we know why loads have been reduced. If you call or write to those people and let them know what components you are using, the way that you are using them and ask why a load that has seemed safe in your guns up to now is suddenly no longer safe maybe you will find out what has changed.
It might be a good enough reason to through that old manual away - it might be that with your components and guns it holds good information
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PaulS

Hodgdon, Lyman, Speer, Sierra, Hornady = reliable resources
so and so's pages on the internet = not reliable resources
Alway check loads you find on the internet against manuals.
NEVER exceed maximum listed loads.

Offline Siskiyou

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2006, 12:36:55 PM »
I use reloading manuals as a guide, start low and work up.  My ammunition has to work safely at a wide tempature range.  I maybe hunting on a 90+ day or a -20 day.  Every once and a while I might find that famous 75 degree day the labs find for testing.  But that is not my normal day time tempature.

Again I use a number of manual as a guide.  I start low and work my way up with my loads.  

I have found that when I use Serria bullets I normally have to drop my charge one or two grains.  Fine bullets but they seem to generate a little more presure in my rifles.  

Old manuals are fine if you play by the rules.  If you start out hot then you could be stepping into troubled waters.

A point of interest is my 1971 Serria Manual.  It was the most conservative manual I had at that time.  Speer and Hornaday published hotter loads.  My 24 year newer Speer manual maximum loads are the same as or a grain or two lighter.  Many times I have read writers compliants that Manual A loads are hotter the Manual B loads.  Clearly a selective reader who by passes the advice to start low and work up.  I sure some of these readers were not teachers pets.
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Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2006, 12:42:31 PM »
Quote from: Siskiyou on July 09, 2006, 08:45:10 AM
If you take a look at the Speer manual from 30 years ago the recommended powder charges are cut back.  Speer even recommends that you dump your old manuals.  Like I would! ;)

I haven't dumped mine either. The difference is that in the days of yesteryear the max loads in manuals were mostly based on loads worked up in real rifles like you and I have that were safe in those individual rifles using regular reloading techniques like we use.  That is why the manuals always said to start low and work up to the max load in YOUR rifle and not assume the max load was safe. The data in todays manuals is based on SAAMI specifications; either for pressure or a velocity range for a specific cartridge/bullet. Unfortuneately, at the insistance of many (including many on this forum site) that "new maximum loads NEVER be exceded" because dangerous things will happen besides the sky falling, many newbies assume any max load in a new manual is safe. The admonition "not to excede" leaves that distinct impression. "Tisn't so! I have found in working up loads (mostly with newer powders) that several maximum loads in the new manuals that were too hot for my rifles.

I continue to safely use the old and new data to work up safe loads for the rifles and handguns I use them in, just like I learned to do years ago. I do not take either "starting loads" or "maximum loads" out of any manual as God's gospel. I have found both to be wrong in the past.

Larry Gibson
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Offline fishdog52

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Re: h 4831
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2006, 03:31:07 PM »
I have a real laaarge pile of realoading books including several generations of manufacturer's data. The old  Speer #8 is a classic and my benchmark for reaching optimal performance.  Common sense & a chronograph will often get you to the best a caliber has to offer, and sometimes, it is well beyond the data currently being published.
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