Boring out a Remington Rolling Block?

[John C]

I'm about to acquire an old Remington Rolling Block from a friend, who's Dad purchased it in the '50s.

As best I can tell, it was a spanish rolling block originally chambered in .43 spanish.  At some point, the Spanish army rebarrelled it to 7mm mauser.

My buddy's Dad, before he passed away, mentioned that the barrel is shot out.  I haven't confirmed this, but have no reason to doubt it.  

As a tribute to ol' Dad, I would like to return this old rifle to shooting condition.  I also want to shoot some CAS side matches.  To this end, I want send this old rolling block out to have the barrel reamed and rifled to .45-70.  Does anyone know a high quality shop that can do this?  Preferably in the Utah/Arizona/Nevada/Colorado/Idaho/Wyoming area?  

Is this even practical?  I only want this rifle for black powder equivalent loads, and it appears that the .45-70 was similar to the .43 spanish.  Obviously, .45-70, though not original to this rifle, is a more practical round.

Would it be easier just to rebarrel it?

Thanks,

John C

[Charlie Detroit]

I think I'd just rebarrel the old gal. That way you can get exactly what you want in length, cartridge, outside contour (these old babies look great with a full octagon barrel), etc.
Probably a whole bunch cheaper, too.

[tw]

You may want to contact Cliff LaBounty he is very highly respected in the reboring and gunsmithing field.  He has also been very willing to advise people as far as what he thinks is the best move for a particular gun.  Ask around about him I am sure you will get good reveiws.  He is located in the North Western part of the country and can be reached at 306 599 2047.  Check with him before you decide which way to go with your rifle you will be glad you did.  TW

[tw]

Sorry about the typo the area code for LaBounty is 360

[John C]

Thanks, fellas.  This is exactly the info I'm looking for.  I guess the final decision will come down to cost and what the exact condition of the internals of the rifle are.  I am under the impression that rebarrelling with a quality barrel will run the in the range of $500.  I assumed that reaming out the bore will run half that.  Although a new barrel will be new, of high quality, not 100 year old spanish steel.  Ah well, no matter what, it's still a helluva deal on an original Remington Rolling Block.

-John C

[Crispin Goodall]

John C.,

You might want to try Dan Pedersen at www.cutrifle.com
Cliff will confirm Dan's abilities with re-boring. Dan is located in Arizona.
928/445-3655

Bset.

[John Traveler]

John C.,

To the best of my knowledge (I collect old Remington Rolling Block rifles), it is not practicable to re-bore a .43 Spanish rolling Block barrel to .45-70.  The new bore dimensions for .45-70 (.450" bore, .458" groove) will not clean up an old and corroded .43 Spanish bore (.436" groove).  Further, the old .43 Spanish used a larger firing pin diameter and breech block hole, which are not safe for the high-pressure 7mm Mauser cartridge.

Those old .43 Spanish barrels were made of "semi-steel" (what we call wrought iron today) and would be marginally safe for use with moderate smokeless powder loads.

This would be absolutely true if the barrel has been relined to 7mm Mauser as you stated.  The relining would have required a re-bore to accept the liner, and further use in 7mm could have weakened the action.

I've examined 7mm relined barrels used in M1916 Mausers made at Oviedo, and must admit, the liners were closely and correctly fitted, and soft-soldered.

Your best bet is to rebarrel with a modern octagon barrel for the CAS type shooting you want.  I have a couple of them and they shoot great!  But, be advised that the firing pins will still have to be bushed for optimum safety.

HTH
John

[John Traveler]

I forgot the other important thing:  The .43 Spanish chamber  is too large in diameter to re-cut to .45-70., and the barrel is too thin to bore out and re-line to .45-70.

I just checked the dimensions on my .43 Spanish rifles and confirmed this.

[John C]

John T.;

Thanks for all of your information.  I have been having an email discussion with another gentleman on this board, and he mentioned that the Spanish army bought #5 rolling blocks originally chambered in 7mm mauser.  I will be receiving this rifle from my buddy this weekend, and will have a chance to check the tang markings (which I am told can be 1897 or 1902 or even 1910) which will give an indication of the exacts specs of the gun.

Also, just to clarify, this rifle is currently in 7mm mauser, and I was looking to bore out this to 45-70, if possible.  If this gun was originally made in 7mm, would it have a correct (or at least usable) firing pin for .45-70?  I guess I don't understand exactly what your referring to when you were talking about the .43 firing pins.  What exactly is the problem with these?

The gentleman whom I have emailed about this mentioned that he has rolling block replacement barrels made when these spanish guns hit the US market.  He has 7mm and .43 barrels with good bores for $50, and .444 marlin for $75.

Finally, how does the .43 spanish stack up against the .45-70?  Other than the fact that the brass is so outrageously priced!  Actually, I'm curious to know how the cartridges spec'd out against one another from a military perspective of, say, 1875.

Thanks again for all of your help!

-John C

[jeff]

John

Rebarreling your RB to another caliber will also require extractor modifications because of differences in the rim diameter.   The 43 Spanish is not a cheap case as you indicated, it is also the same as the sharps 44-77  which is also costly.  Since you are considering rebarreling, theres another caliber that could be considered and that the 38-55 Winchester.  Then there's the need for sights, proper treewood and most likely some trigger work.

I would suggest that you contact a gunsmith experienced in rollers before you venture too far.  Also consider acquiring a barrel from a 'known' source.  The barrels that you referenced may not have the quality that you  would want considering the costs that would be incurred in your project.  Consider talking to or emailing Lee Shaver.  He is well know in the BPCR community and knows rollers very well.  You might also consider a Green Mountain barrel, they cater to the black powder group and have a reputation of providing high quality products at very reasonable prices.  Lee's web site is http://www.egunsmith.com/

good luck

jeff

[John Traveler]

John C,

The M1897, M1902, and M1910 7mm Remington Rolling Block rifle barrels are identical in barrel thread and exterior dimensions.  the difference is in the front sight attachments:  The M1910 has a band-type front sight, where the earlier ones had brazed-on square bases supporting an inverted barleycorn-shaped front sight.

A 7mm RRB barrel can NOT be rebored to .45-70.  It is too skinny from just forward of the chamber all the way to the muzzle.

In comparing the US .45-70 service cartridge to the .43 Spanish service cartridge, remember that at they represented the BP cartridge state-of-the-art at the time of their design and adoption. The .43 Spanish leaned heavily on the developments of the German 11mm M1871 rifle and cartridge, which was the world's first production metallic service cartridge and rifle.  In power and  accuracy, they are very similar.  The .43 Spanish used a .439" diameter lead bullet.

In the late 1880's, Spain restandardized on the 11mm Reformado ("reformed") cartridge, which used a .454" brass-jacketed lead bullet in the old .439" groove diameter barrel.  Almost all .43 Spanish rifles were rechambered to this improved round, and South American countries followed suit.  Surpisingly, the .45-70 will also chamber and fire in the .43 Reformado chamber!  Base diameters differ by some 0.015" or 0.020".  Enough to make modern shooters nervous, but I suspect illiterate peasant soldiers didn't care much as long as it fired.  This was the Remington rifle and cartridge used by Cuban Militia soldiers that Americans faced in the 1898 spanish-american War.  Spanish .43 rifles had the long-range volley-fire sights, which indicated that shooting and hitting at 2,000 yards was of military value.

As previously stated, the old Remington No. 1 Rolling block rifles had larger firing pins and holes than the 7mm RRB rifles (No. 5 in Remington advertising).  The smaller 7mm holes/firing pins are safe with modern .45-70 ammunition and for rebarreling to other calibers.  The old No. 1's are NOT unless the block has been re-bushed for use with a smaller firing pin.  A punctured primer and the gas blowback in the RRB action is dangerous because it can cock the hammer and unlock the breech during firing.

I've seen a few of those Numrich Arms barrels for the RRB.  I had one in .444 Marlin and it shot okay.  It was half-octagon, and marked "Creedmore" or "Buffalo Creedmore", or some such.

I'm not familiar with any modern re-manufacture of .43 Spanish RRB barrels.  Could you provide the name and contact of the barrel source?  Send me email, please, to:

johntravelerman1@hotmail.com

I would appreciate that.

[John C]

John T.;

Email sent.

-John C