Hardcast vs. jhp for hunting? help!

[Gallahad]

I'm sure this has been covered somewhere, but I want to get specific.  I have used 240 grain xtp's for whitetail out of a 44 mag. I had complete pass thru, and deer went about 75 yds.  I'm looking at either a 480, or 454, and have considered using cast bullets, because of cost, and increased barrel life.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but cast bullets (hard cast) don't expand at all. They may fragment on large bone, but the wound channel would be much smaller than an expanding bullet.  If I shoot a deer thru the shoulder with a hard cast 300 gr. bullet, its going down. Problem is, I don't like shooting e'm thru the shoulder.  I try to save shoulder meat, and go for a rear lung/liver shot.  Is a big hard cast bullet, lets say 45 cal., with the biggest metplate I can find, going to do enuf damage to drop a deer within a trackable distance from where I shoot it? I'd like to know more about wound channels on game with hard cast bullets. Thanks for any help!

[Dusty Miller]

The common wisdom of the cast bullet is you can "eat the meat right up to the hole" as opposed to getting a bunch of ruined meat with an expanding bullet.  Can't say myself if this has any validity.

[dubber123]

I have only gotten 1 big game animal with a hardcast, a Russian boar.  The gun was a .475 Linebaugh, the load was a 425 grain Wide Flat Nose at 1350 fps.  My brother was hunting with me, and shot a near identical size boar with a 350 grain jacketed 45-70 at 2000fps.  Shot placement was identical.  Upon field dressing, it became obvious that the hardcast had done ALOT more damage.  I know this is only 1 instance, but I was very impressed, as was my brother, who now shoots only hard cast in his 45-70.  I would recommend the widest nose you can get.  I intend on trying the WFN's at under 900 fps. out of my 50-70 Contender, as several more knowledgeable fellows tell me they work great at slower speeds as well.  I won't know for sure until my next hunt in October.

[jhalcott]

Yes hard cast will Kill deer. No you wont get expansion.Linotype will often shatter on bones. HEAT TREATED wheel weight does not shatter as a rule. I shot a big doe on a crop damage permit with a 44Mag using straight wheel weight lead. The 240 grain slug went thru the deer at 50 yards.I hit just behind the shoulder,took out the lungs and heart.The deer walked about 20-25 yards thru some thick brush and layed down.After a half hour wait I went to her.

[Castaway]

A 45 caliber hole is about as large as a 30 caliber can expand to.  Think of it as a pre-expanded bullet if you like.   A heavy, hard cast bullet will start the hole big and keep it that way all the way both sides, even passing through bone without much deformation, leaving an inney and outey for easier tracking.  Pistol bullets kill diferently than rifle bullets, they don't have the velocity of a rifle for shock effect and too much expansion at pistol velocities is like pushing a parachute through the animal.  A good flat meplat like what's on a Keith-style bullet at 255 grains and 1,000 - 1,100 f/s out of your Ruger is all you'll need but with the Ruger you can boost it up a bit more if you like.  Having said that, I use the Lee 255 grain RNFP and never had to trail a deer or pig one very far.  As an aside, I tried 300 grainers and found I couldn't regulate my sights, struck 15" high at 50 yards and my rear sight was bottomed out on my Black Hawk.

[Haywire Haywood]

If you're really interested in how cast bullets kill, I'd recommend buying Veral Smith's book.  It's an education.  All the shock damage from high speed jacketed bullets supposedly inhibit free bleeding somewhat as opposed to a slower cast bullet with a 70%+ meplat.  He has a formula in his book for ideal velocity using I beleive bullet weight and meplat diameter. The hit also doesn't startle the animal as much either, so they have less of a tendency to run as far.  My buddy made shot on a doe with a 357 Maximum rifle using 180gr cast.  It wasn't a classic hit, missed the heart, took out the liver.  The result was complete passthru and she made it about 50yds.

Ian

[BRL]

Veral's book. I don't cast my own and don't plan on starting. Would this book still be good for a person who just reloads? Or, is most of the information discussing the casting process?

Thanks.

[Graybeard]

Hard cast will always work and does fine. Still on deer I personally prefer JHPs.

The story so commonly passed around that linotype shatters on bones is BS, it was started by someone who likely had never seen a bullet cast of linotype and has been propagated ever since most likely by others who have never used it. Just ain't so folks. I've been shooting them for over 30 years.

[jhalcott]

  You may be right Bill,the only bones I ever hit were ribs ! I'm going to try to get some leg bones from the butcher and sandwhich them in some wet newspaper.Shoot AT them  to see what happens. I shot some 15bhn 250 gr 35's into DRY phone books today .All I found was gas checks and slivers of bullets.

[EdK]

Veral's book ... Would this book still be good for a person who just reloads?

No, the book is not really focused on the casting process itself. It covers topics like:

How cast bullets vs. jacketed bullets kill
How to choose a cast bullet design for a certain firearm/cartrige and purpose.
How to measure your firearm to specify the correct cast bullet (or mold)

and more ... I have the book but just quoted these points from memory. It is indeed valuable even if you do not cast but just reload using cast bullets.

[BRL]

EdK, thanks for the response. I think I will pick up his book. I just wanted to make sure there would be enough info in it for a "non-caster". Thanks again!

[sharps4590]

I don't believe you'll be the least bit disappointed in the performance of cast bullets for hunting.  It's all I've used for over 20 years and only two animals have travelled more than 10 yards when hit well.  Most went down on the spot and died there.   Nearly all were heart/lung shots and I have to include the fact that I'm talking about 400+ grain bullets of 40 or 45 caliber fired from rifles.

Ain't no fly's on a 45 thru 54 caliber round ball either!

Vic

[fatmo]

 Tell me if I am wrong. I live in Alaska Southeast and carry a S&W 500 for bear protection. When choosing a bullet type I have been told several times to use hardcast bullet instead of jhp because the jhp will fill up with hair and not allow the bullet perform properly. Therefore I load my revolver with 440 gn hardcast bullets. Any truth about the jhp?

[pistolfan]

I've used a 44 mag with cast wheel weight bullets for many years. I've shot my fair share of deer and I can only think of a very few that got away, shooter error not bullet. I've hit them in the shoulder, you're right about meat damage there ruins the whole front of the deer, and in the lung heart areas, they go down quick. I don't shoot magnum loads either, more in the middle ranges. You will not have a problem with lead bullets. I always thought that at the velocities your shooting at JHP bullets don't expand much anyway. I can't belive that going through hair is going to effect a JHP bullet, not when it's zinging along at a good pace and close up, in that case it would be effected when used on any animal with fur. Enjoy your new gun. Peter aka pistolfan

[Lloyd Smale]

Bill I totally agree with you on lynotype. We done alot of penetration testing ALOT! and ive NEVER seen a lynotype bullet fracture. Now water dropped ww bullets ive seen fail many times especially at rifle velocities. semi wad cutters will fracture right where the nose meets the driving band. Best all around alloy ive found for hunting bullets in handguns and rifles is 5050 ww/lyno. Its plenty hard to hold up to bone and prevent leading and its alot cheaper then straight lynotype. Now the cast vs. jacketed debate on deer we will never agree on. Personaly id take a cast bullet over a jacketed in any hunting cituation. Sure jacketed bullets will kill something as small and frajile as a whitetail but its nice to know that at no matter what angle i shoot at i can put a bullet through the boiler room.

Hard cast will always work and does fine. Still on deer I personally prefer JHPs.

The story so commonly passed around that linotype shatters on bones is BS, it was started by someone who likely had never seen a bullet cast of linotype and has been propagated ever since most likely by others who have never used it. Just ain't so folks. I've been shooting them for over 30 years.

[wgr]

for hunting bullets  i use 8lb  ww . and add 2lb of linotype. i have used them in 44mag   357   30-30 and 8mm mauser.   have hit bone and never had one to fail. try to stay away from the shouder   but sometimes things happen   i dont worry about expaning    just find a bullet with the biggest nose you can put it through  a deers lung heart area and you wont have any problems

[WL44]

Lloyd,

I've seen you mention the 50/50 alloy often. But what I don't recall - I assume you air cool them?

Thanks.

Wim

[lovedogs]

I just started using cast bullets in one of my .44's for deer hunting this year.  In the past I've always used jacketed and jacketed HP's.  I've lost count of heads of game taken.  Never lost any but was always dissatisfied when a jacketed would fail to expand, would blow up, fail to penetrate, or fail in some way.  So I thought I'd try cast.  I like to cast and tinker anyway.  From what I've seen and my limited experience this fall on deer with cast I'm never going back to jacketed.  I'm shooting a 240 gr. RNFPGC at 1600 out of a Contender.  It shoots great.  It goes all the way through, leaving a good wound channel, but not excessive.  Like I said, I'm never going back to jacketed bullets in pistols.

[Lloyd Smale]

yes air cooled. Im am not a fan of water dropping any alloy.

Lloyd,

I've seen you mention the 50/50 alloy often. But what I don't recall - I assume you air cool them?

Thanks.

Wim

[burntmuch]

Just got a 4570 barrel for my handi rifle. This was the info i was looking for thanks.

[Mitch40]

Lloyd I hunt with a 460 S&W mag that runs around 55,000-60,000 psi. and 2,000 fps. In verals book it says BHN should be 30-35 BHN for that psi and the only way to get that is to oven heat treat. DO you think the 50/50 ww/Lino air cooled would be hard enough for that much psi with out deforming the bullet or leading the barrel?

[Mitch40]

Oh, And i use a 320gr LFN LBT GC bullet

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Sure jacketed bullets will kill something as small and frajile as a whitetail but its nice to know that at no matter what angle i shoot at i can put a bullet through the boiler room.

I've never quite understood this concern.  At impact velocities below 2000 fps, I just can't imagine a jacketed bullet not penetrating through the boiler room - no matter the shot angle.  Maybe not pass-through, but it ought to penetrate the vitals. 

Now if you're using HOLLOW POINT that might be a different story, but that's a characteristic of the nose design, not the jacket material.