Author Topic: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal  (Read 1159 times)

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Offline victorcharlie

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Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« on: July 19, 2006, 10:35:51 AM »
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/mideast_fighting_diplomacy

Yep, our european allies seem to see things a little different than we do again............

Why do we still call them allies?

Well, I can't say I'm suprised......just once in this young century, I'd like to see Germany or France agree with us about something.....

Have our cultures become so different that we can no longer agree or do you think it's because the former USSR has fallen and the rest of the world views us as the bully at the top of the hill that needs to fall?

I'm starting to believe we were better off when the USSR was an adversary, and europe had to choose their "buddy".........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2006, 03:40:11 PM »
Good point, sometimes it seems that way. I don't think they are an ally at all.

I think others view us similar to how some competitors view Walmart. Someone is allways shooting at number 1 & they will be hated( WM was used only as a comparison, I don't want that discussion).

Anyway, as the saying goes, Europe is allways there when they need us!
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2006, 05:37:26 PM »
   When England was "monarch of the seas"...the admiral of our fledgling Navy..John Paul Jones, said he wanted to sail up the Thames and "singe the King's beard"..or some such words to that effect..

   Seems like in the history of this world..most are jealous of and resentful; of, the "big guy on the block"

    ...Just human nature, I guess..
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2006, 06:50:41 AM »
I am fully aware of the history of the Jews from reading the Bible, and the history of the world, but I have failed to understand why we have been in bed with Israel for so long.  They have taken advantage of us at every opportunity, they have spyed on us, stole our military secrets, and on occassion fired upon US military ships and planes.  I firmly believe our problemes in the middle east are the direct result of our association with Israel.  I don't trust them and think incidents like the following are far more common than we know.


 
Subject:  Attack On The USS Liberty
 
   
 
'The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret
May 2, 2001

by Eric S. Margolis
The Toronto Sun

NEW YORK: On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab
Israeli War, the intelligence ship 'USS Liberty' was
steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off
the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armored forces were
racing deep into Sinai in hot pursuit of the
retreating Egyptian army.

'Liberty,' a World War II freighter, had been
converted into an intelligence vessel by the
top-secret US National Security Agency, and packed
with the latest signals and electronic interception
equipment. The ship bristled with antennas and
electronic 'ears' including TRSSCOMM, a system that
delivered real-time intercepts to Washington by
bouncing a stream of microwaves off the moon.

'Liberty' had been rushed to Sinai to monitor
communications of the belligerents in the Third Arab
Israeli War: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria, and
Jordan.

At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights
flew over 'Liberty,' which was flying a large American
flag. At 1400 hrs, waves of low-flying Israeli Mystere
and Mirage-III fighter-bombers repeatedly attacked the
American vessel with rockets, napalm, and cannon. The
air attacks lasted 20 minutes, concentrating on the
ship's electronic antennas and dishes. The 'Liberty'
was left afire, listing sharply. Eight of her crew lay
dead, a hundred seriously wounded, including the
captain, Commander William McGonagle.

At 1424 hrs, three Israeli torpedo boats attacked,
raking the burning 'Liberty' with 20mm and 40mm
shells. At 1431hrs an Israeli torpedo hit the
'Liberty' midship, precisely where the signals
intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more
Americans died.

Israeli gunboats circled the wounded 'Liberty,' firing
at crewmen trying to fight the fires. At 1515, the
crew were ordered to abandon ship. The Israeli
warships closed and poured machine gun fire into the
crowded life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors
were being massacred in cold blood, a rescue mission
by US Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was mysteriously
aborted on orders from the White House.

An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes
returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order. 'prepare
to repel borders.' But the Israelis, probably fearful
of intervention by the US Sixth Fleet, departed.
'Liberty' was left shattered but still defiant, her
flag flying.

The Israeli attacks killed 34 US seamen and wounded
171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of American
naval personnel from hostile action since World War
II.

Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told
Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.'
Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an
ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of
State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head,
Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was
deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did
three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense
Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the
attack.

In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's
assault on the intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's
mistaken missile strike on the USS 'Stark,' last
fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the
recent US-China air incident, the savaging of
'Liberty' was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon
Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted
Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel
later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There
were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to
attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.

Surviving 'Liberty' crew members would not be
silenced. They kept demanding an open inquiry and
tried to tell their story of deliberate attack to the
media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to
thwart these efforts, going so far as having American
pro-Israel groups accuse 'Liberty's' survivors of
being 'anti-Semites' and 'Israel-haters.' Major TV
networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book
about the 'Liberty' by crewman James Ennes' was
dropped from distribution. The Israel lobby branded
him 'an Arab propagandist.'

The attack on 'Liberty' was fading into obscurity
until last week, when intelligence expert James
Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book
about the National Security Agency. In a stunning
revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a
US Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft was flying high
overhead the 'Liberty,' electronically recorded the
attack. The US aircraft crew provides evidence that
the Israeli pilots knew full well that they were
attacking a US Navy ship flying the American flag.

Why did Israel try to sink a naval vessel of its
benefactor and ally? Most likely because 'Liberty's'
intercepts flatly contradicted Israel's claim, made at
the war's beginning on 5 June, that Egypt had attacked
Israel, and that Israel's massive air assault on three
Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began
the war by a devastating, Pearl-Harbor style surprise
attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed
their entire air forces.

Israel was also preparing to attack Syria to seize its
strategic Golan Heights. Washington warned Israel not
to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while
Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's offensive
against Syria was abruptly postponed when 'Liberty'
appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked
out of action. Israel's claim that Syria had attacked
it could have been disproved by 'Liberty.'

Most significant, 'Liberty's' intercepts may have
shown that Israel seized upon sharply rising
Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June 1967 to launch a
long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank,
Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.

Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes
Bamford: 'Despite the overwhelming evidence that
Israel attacked the ship and killed American
servicemen deliberately, the Johnson Administration
and Congress covered up the entire incident.' Why?

Domestic politics. Johnson, a man never noted for high
moral values, preferred to cover up the attack rather
than anger a key constituency and major financial
backer of the Democratic Party. Congress was even less
eager to touch this 'third rail' issue.

Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of
Honor for his and his men's heroism â?" not in the
White House, as is usual, but in an obscure ceremony
at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew member's graves were
inscribed, 'died in the Eastern Mediterranean..' as if
they had be killed by disease, rather than hostile
action.

A member of President Johnson's staff believed there
was a more complex reason for the cover-up: Johnson
offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of
Israel, and a cover-up of the 'Liberty' attack, in
exchange for the liberal toning down their strident
criticism of his policies in the then raging Vietnam
War.

Israel, which claims it fought a war of self defense
in 1967 and had no prior territorial ambitions, will
be much displeased by Bamford's revelations. Those who
believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and
Golan will be emboldened.

Much more important, the US government's long,
disgraceful cover-up of the premeditated attack on
'Liberty' has now burst into the open and demands
full-scale investigation. After 34 years, the voices
of 'Liberty's' dead and wounded seamen must finally be
heard.


Copyright Eric S. Margolis 2001

Offline ironglow

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2006, 12:05:21 PM »
Rockbilly;
  If you would take the hundreds of times the Islamofacists have attacked us in the same or worse manner..and post an equal length explanation and description of the attack..it would become obvious to you just why we favor Israel...as we should.
  At least we got an admission and an apology ..better than the USS Cole incident alone !

  The curious thing about the so-called USS Liberty attack is that neither of the governments supposedly involved accuse each other of anything outrageously egregious in that attack..

      This was evidentally a "friendly fire" incident...if you have seen photos of the "Liberty" one could easily see why that rusty hulk could have been mistaken for an Arab ship !
   
  Islamofacists killed 273 in the barracks in Lebanon  in 1987, I guess a couple dozen in the FIRST attack, on the World trade center, more in the Khobar Tower, more in the Clinton-aspen fiasco in Mogadishu, more in the ill fated Carter "rescue of embassy hostages", what..17-25 more on the USS Cole plus some in a Bali nightclub and others in German nightspots..etc,etc ..on and on..

   Didn't even hear you mention them.. 

   The writer for the Sun speaks of the three Arab/Israeli conflicts......who started all three and who got their butts kicked all three times ?

       Do you still not understand why many of us differently thinking Americans favor the side of Israel ?

....THen try this:

 1) How many Jews have blown themselves and others to bits in a Pizza parlor ?

 2)   "       "       "      "       "          "            "       "     "    "      in a day-care facility ?

 3)   "        "       "      "       "          "            "       "     "     "     in US Marine barracks ?

 4)    "        "       "      "       "         "            "        "     "     "      in various airliners ?

 5)    "        "       "       "      "         "             "        "      "    "    in the Khobar Towers ?

 6) How many Jews have flown loaded airliners into the World Trade Center buildings ?

  7) How many Jews have gassed the Khurdish people by the thousands ?

  8) How man Jews in recent years have beheaded people with a dull knife ( on video) ?

  9) How many Jews have smuggled shoe-bombs onto airliners, and attemptyed to use them ?

 10) How many Jews have flown our airliners into collision with our Pentagon ?

 11) How many Jews in recent centuries have "trashed out" the Church of the Nativity ?

 12) How many Jews have blown up public transportation in, Spain, France, England and India...just to name a few ?

 13) How many Jews have sworn to destroy the United States..."the great satan "..?

 14) How many Jews have taken mentally retarded adolescents and strapped "bomb-belts" on them and given them killing orders ?

    I could go on and on, but :..... NOW ARE YOU BEGINNING TO GET THE PICTURE... ?

   Perhaps our fellow forum members would like to read other things the Toronto Sun has to say about who are the terrorists..and what their view is on other current events.....    www.torontosun.com/comment/home.html
     
      Just follow that link and click on "comment".
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline ShadowMover

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2006, 04:13:31 PM »
Regarding our 'relationship' with Israel, just because the Arab side is acting badly, doesn't mean the other side is our bosom buddy, and is acting in our best interests. The Islamic side have been acting badly for years, and they are not likely to change, no matter what we do, but that doesn't mean we should overlook the anti-U.S. actions by our supposed ally, Israel. The USS Liberty affair is just one example of how they have kicked us in the teeth after we have given them hundreds of BILLIONS in aid and military support. " It has also been noted that the total U.S. Aid to Israel since 1948, if adjusted for inflation and interest, becomes $247 billion (Left Turn, May/June 2003)"  You can also reference their spying on us, by typing "Israeli Spy" in Google and read until you can't stomach it anymore. Here is an easy link:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/motherofallscandals.html

 I have no problem with Israel doing what is in their interests, but as an American I draw the line at putting Israeli policies and interests ahead of America's. Let's start looking out for the USA and start expecting our politicians to do the same.  If we tell Israel to stop spending our aid on new settlements, or to stop shelling civilian towns and they ignore our requests there should be consequences. Does Bush look or act like he can tell the Israelis to do, or not do anything? I don't think so either. Not many in the media or government are willing to say anything.

Get ready to pick up the bill for the shelling and invasion of Lebanon. All that ammo, rockets, and gas have to be replaced; and good old Uncle Sucker will be there with his check book. Make that the credit card, because we are already overdrawn at the bank after 'liberating' Iraq.



Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2006, 06:59:25 PM »
All of our major allies have cost us Billions, absolutely nothing new about that & we even have spent Billio9ns on those who are not Allies. Nothing unique here about the Jews. And all of our Allies work against us from time to time except possibly for England & they will pull away as the Socialist Liberals there are gaining power.

When push comes to shove & we get into a full scale war, why would anyone be surprised if we are alone. Things have been going that way for many years.

You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline ironglow

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2006, 11:53:09 PM »
Normally, national leaders look after their nation's intrests FIRST.. No surprise there..

    ..But in that long missive about the USS Liberty...let's keep it in perspective; that was all about ONE " friendly-fire " incident..and being a "spy ship" was not likely flying a US flag...
   
     If they hoisted a flag AFTER the action started...it was probably considered an attempted Arab ruse.

   On the other hand, with the Islamofacists, we are talking about literally hundreds of " hostile-fire " events taking THOUSANDS of lives..

   I reiterate...when comparing Israel to the Islamic hordes (as Rockbilly attempted to do)...there is truly no comparison...

    Stack ONE event against HUNDREDS of events...let's "get real"...

   
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 04:21:10 AM »
Perhaps the unstinting support for Isreal could have something to do with the amount of Jewish faith members and families who have major interests in both you Congress and Senite houses ;) it's a classic case of the tail wagging the Dog!

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 09:56:42 AM »
But then again perhaps not.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline powderman

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 12:50:10 PM »
The USS Liberty happened 39 years ago. Israel was in a war and trusted no one. Even if they knew it was our ship, I'm sure they wondered about our motives. They took no chances. A friend of mine is retired Navy, he believes that Israel knew it was our ship, and a spy ship at that. I don't know, but we consider Japan and Britain allies, we fought brutal wars with them. Israel is the ONLY friendly face we have in the entire region, the others tolerate us, but they are not friends. God gave that entire region to Israel, the rest are trespassers. The Godless ones are sending rockets into Israel daily. Monday they said that over 700 had been launched in the prevuious 4 days, another 100 on Monday, 150 more on Tuesday. The Godless ones target civilians, the more innocents killed the happier they are. Israel has warned civilians that they are coming after hamas and told them to leave, they broadcast it on tv and radio, even dropped leaflets. They have gone to extremes to avoid civilian deaths. The Godless ones killed 2 children in Nazareth the other day with a rocket. They appologized because the 2 kids were muslim, not Jews or Christians. If a rocket landed in a day care center, or a school, killing innocenr Jewish children, they would dance in the street, just as they did over the American dead on 9 11 01. My ferevent hope and prayer is that we, as Americans, never turn our back on Israel. The Godless ones live to kill, they don't care who, as long as they kill non muslims. POWDERMAN.  :) :) :) :) :) :)
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2006, 03:40:10 AM »
Oh, OK. I have been misinformed. I thought the Iranian idiot was saying that he wanted to wipe out
all of the Jews. So you are saying that Isreal just wants a war, & it has nothing to do with self
preservation, hmmm! And I guess they should not want to push their enemies back, no they should keep them close so that the children can get blown up while playing in the schoolyard.

The nice LIBERAL view would be to wait until Iran attacks Isreal & then shout you had better do
something.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2006, 09:45:19 AM »
Ironglow.  By no means did I intend to imply that Israel is our only problem in that part of the world, I agree, the "Islamofacists" have caused the death of far more Americans, and destroyed much more property.  My position is, if you discontinue to support and aid Israel then many of our problem is that part of the world would go away. 

As far as I am concerned, I think Irsrael, Saudi, Jordon, and perhaps several others would put the screws to America given the opportunity.  The jews and arabs have been fighting since the beginning of time, and likely they will continue to fight until the end of time.  We put ourselves in harms way by sideing with either group.  In my opinion, the major reason we side Israel is the influence of the Jewish people in the banking industry.

Don't be fooled by the size of Israel, they are a powerful military machine and have the ability to overcome any agression they may receive from anyone in that area on their own.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2006, 11:20:00 AM »
Once again TM7, your looking at the big picture and not getting caught up in the details......

The fight between the jews and the Muslems go all the way back to Abrahams blessing.  It doesn't take much encouragement to get these 2 different peoples to fight, as that's what they both want to do............

We, as good capitalist, are sure to profit from it no matter who wins or looses.

Personally, from my own christian perspective, I believe the jews are gods chosen people and thus will win out once the prophecy of John has been fulfilled.  Therefore, when it comes time to pick a side, I'll have to go with the jews...... although I'm not one of gods "chosen people", I am sanctified by gods grace and through my faith and await the day when all those kneel before him.........and the nation of Isreal recognises him as there own.

Besides.....ain't nobody every whipped the Isrealies..........
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline nabob

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2006, 01:06:17 PM »
Well, except for the Romans, the Persians, the Philistines, the Assyrians...

That WAS, however, a few years ago!  :D :D

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 04:25:59 PM »
TM7, you are assuming I have not studied or dug deeper because my thoughts don't dovetail with yours even though we agree on many things like immigration, a false assumption & one I have not made about you.

I think that we agree that both parties are not totally innocent. I believe you have about the same attitude toward the Jews that I have toward the Arabs/Muslims. No biggie to me.
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Offline ironglow

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 04:47:54 PM »
Hmmm !

   Noone has whipped the Israelis...except for the Romans, the Persians, the Philistines and the Assyrians...

    ..Really ?

  The Israelis are a powerful nation today...where are `the Romans, the Persians, the Philistines  and the Assyrians...

      As I see it...last man standing is the victor...LOL
If you don't want the truth, don't ask me.  If you want something sugar coated...go eat a donut !  (anon)

Offline nabob

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 12:17:36 AM »
For goodness sakes, it was a joke. Don't get your knickers in a twist.

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 01:13:04 AM »
Nomosendero......not trying to discount your view of history, but just suggesting there are other views from the mainstream's ideas and position. The mainstream slant always supports more government, more internationalism, more corporatism, more profit for elitist, more interventionism, more secrecy and corruption, more taxes real or backdoor, more export of jobs, more distintergration of borders, more United Nations, more world government, and more of whole lot of other crapola;  and less freedom, liberty, family, and God for you and me. There's a plan to their maddness if you look into it is what I'm suggesting.
.
IG....how long was the Roman Empire a force in the world? How long has Israel been a force in the world? How many taxpayer dollars have gone to build the Israeli surrogate, now designed to be progenitor of a elistist agenda?


.................................TM7




Bingo!
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 02:52:58 AM »
The mainstram slant toward more Gov. is not new, no doubt & I did not knoe that any questioned that.

This "agenda" will be a tough one since Europe for the most part is anti Jew & obviously the UN is as well. It makes for a very odd fit in the NWO & an inconsistant one. 
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Brithunter

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #20 on: July 27, 2006, 11:02:32 PM »
Hmmm,

Quote
This "agenda" will be a tough one since Europe for the most part is anti Jew & obviously the UN is as well

    Not sure about Europe being Anti Jewish  ??? but I don't think that all of Europe has been taken in. Now I am surprised that the Holocaust has not been brought up, sure it happened but not all and not even tha majority were Jews. The Nazis killed millions of Handicapped and Gypses along wiht those who opposed them. The difference it seems is that only the Jews have profited from it all  ???.

     And now it seems that Isreal can act just like the Nazis and attack, imprison and  execute anyone they feel like and no one ............................. no one is supposed to complain? Another ting since when has a religion become a race?

     

Offline ShadowMover

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Re: Riff develops between the US and the EU over Isreal
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2006, 06:29:33 AM »
TM7, you metioned this : "It is interesting to trace the beginning of fundamental Islamism, or Wahabism. It can be traced to England of all places. When I was travelling around in Afganistan, many years ago, it was shocking to see the children's school books put out by our own USIA and US for AID agencies.....simply shocking and revolting."
 It sounds interesting, can you give more details?