Author Topic: Raids (Read 1865 times)

Bush Master · « **on:** July 20, 2006, 06:48:32 AM »

I found this today and in light of the fact that some of the people on this board claim this sort of thing never happens, I thought I'd post it:

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476

Well documented with links to the original news stories.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #1 on:** July 20, 2006, 09:28:07 AM »

Let's see...in 20 years 293 documented so-called bad incidents (some of which seem irrelevant) out of let's say some 20,000 incidents a year overall (Average. Up to 40,000 a year presently). Over 20 years, seven-hundreths of one percent resulted in the implied bad results. Wooooooo!! Scary!! Sounds pretty rare to me. Less than one bad result per year in 20 years in New York City, a city of 8 million people. When they come knocking at your door or anyone you know let us know. Let's all feel bad for non-violent drug offenders. The innocents I can feel for, but you have a far better chance of getting struck by lightning than be the innocent victim of a police raid.

Sounds like some pretty good scare tactics with little real data and mostly anecdotal evidence. The article implies that these raids are unlawful, when in fact they are sanctioned. I'm not saying that it is good that the police are becoming more paramilitary and that they use these forces for raids. But if they are indeed doing police work, I wonder how many raids would end up worse without such a use of force? How about arrests and convictions that result from these raids? How about lives saved as a result?

Casull · « **Reply #2 on:** July 20, 2006, 10:08:13 AM »

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this board claim that those sorts of things never happen. Just that they are extremely rare. Life isn't perfect, and mistakes sometimes happen. All you can do is try to minimize the chances.

dukkillr · « **Reply #3 on:** July 20, 2006, 02:03:33 PM »

Quote from: Casull on July 20, 2006, 10:08:13 AM

I don't think I've ever seen anyone on this board claim that those sorts of things never happen. Just that they are extremely rare. Life isn't perfect, and mistakes sometimes happen. All you can do is try to minimize the chances.

That's exactly right. Pull the statistics and tell me if you're more likely to be killed by peanut butter or a lighting strike...

Bush Master · « **Reply #4 on:** July 21, 2006, 05:03:43 AM »

TM7 got it right, it is indeed something to think about and decide if this is the type of policing we want to have here in the so-called land of the free. To make light of it just shows how callous and desensitized a high percentage the public has become. If they tried this back in my father's or grandfather's day, they would not have put up with it and if the police chief or mayor didn't put a stop to it, they would have, by force if necessary. Before you Pooh-Pooh that statement, I would remind you of the battle of Athens, Tennessee in 1946. You can state that you don't care, that you need to break some eggs to make an omelet(Stalin), but try telling that to the innocent people who have lost their lives or a loved one to this sort of military style attack. When it does happen, the police responsible are rarely disciplined, let alone fired or prosecuted and the tax payer has to pick up the tab to settle the law suit. Meanwhile, the culprits are free to be set loose on other innocents. By accepting this sort of thing, we are accepting our descent to third world status.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #5 on:** July 21, 2006, 07:01:13 AM »

All one needs to do is look at Randy Weaver's ordeal with fascist federal police who trumped up charges against him. Tanks at Waco are another indication of things gone bad.

All Randy Weaver wanted was to be left alone.......

Now, the patriot act federalizes all local police departments should the department of homeland security decide. It gives control to US marshal's, who are not elected officals.......they answer to no one..........

What ever happened to liberty?

victorcharlie · « **Reply #6 on:** July 22, 2006, 06:34:32 AM »

Why sure........we all must sacrifice....and because I'm such a good fellow I have nothing to fear right?

We've got all the liberty the Federal Government wants us to have right?

Bush Master · « **Reply #7 on:** July 24, 2006, 04:33:25 AM »

Yes, VC and TM7, we must trust the government at all costs, they only have our best interests at heart. The government will decide when and which freedoms we allowed to have, after all, they know better than we do what is good for us.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #8 on:** July 24, 2006, 06:36:40 AM »

Well said comrade......

Bush Master · « **Reply #9 on:** July 24, 2006, 11:24:48 AM »

Actually, from what I have been able to find out, you have a slightly better chance of being killed in a botched raid than being killed by lightning(Lightning = 50 - 54 per year, police = 55 - 60 per year). Virtually identical, but I remember a time when there was ZERO chance of you getting killed in a police paramilitary style raid. And, just for the record, Dukkillr did state quite clearly that he didn't know anyone this happened to and had never heard of a case like this.

Casull · « **Reply #10 on:** July 24, 2006, 12:34:02 PM »

Please, please show me some legitimate source providing information on 55 to 60 innocents killed in botched (read wrong address, which is where that issue arose) paramilitary police raids per year.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #11 on:** July 24, 2006, 05:23:56 PM »

Death of an innocent tallied at 40 over a 20 year period. That's 2 a year on average, not 55 to 60 a year as these reactionaries propose. Now you guys can continue to stroke your egos over your libertarian ideals. Its seems like a good support group for you.

Bush Master · « **Reply #12 on:** July 25, 2006, 04:16:53 AM »

I first must correct an error. I staed in my previous post that police kill 55 - 60 people a year in bothced raids. That is incorrect, police kill 55 - 60 innocent people per year total, not just in botched raids but also shootings by beat cops and detectives.

Casull, I am showing you nothing. You have nothing to add to this conversation, after all everything is just peachy with the country according to you. So go ahead, pay your taxes, vote republican and keep your head in the sand.

EsoxLucuis, this thread is for discussion of second amendment and policital issues, if all you want to do is insult people, why don't you go to open mike night at a comedy club? In every single one of your posts you come across as are very arrogant. You have a high and mighty attitude for some unfathomable reason as your posts do not reveal any great knowledge, wisdom or insights. Join Casull at Starbuck's, keep voting republican and sipping that kool aid.

Casull · « **Reply #13 on:** July 25, 2006, 04:37:30 AM »

BM, of course you're going to show me nothing. Because you have nothing to show. As usual, when someone calls you to the mat, you get mad and call names. Talk about having nothing to add to the conversation.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #14 on:** July 25, 2006, 05:59:13 AM »

Bush Master, have you ever considered that the facetious banter between TM7, victorcharlie and you might insult others? You assume that because a response does not fit in with your particular world view that you know everything about that person's attitudes and philosophies. Well, I don't think you have a clue. I guess you guys can dish it out but can't take some pointed observations.

Bush Master · « **Reply #15 on:** July 25, 2006, 07:20:45 AM »

EsoxLucuis, Not one of us ever called you names nor did we ever reply in an arrogant fashion. You, on the other hand, reply to everyone who disagrees with you in every thread in an obnoxious and condescending way. I have noticed your replies in several different threads and every single one of them you talk down to people.

Casull, give it a rest, after your fake lawyer thing I don't give you any credibility. If you really think some lame lawyer wannabe can get me mad you are sadly mistaken.

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #16 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:04:14 AM »

That would be your opinion. If you don't like direct talk, either don't write the inane stuff you do or don't read my posts.

Bush Master · « **Reply #17 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:12:27 AM »

It is your opinion that you are even handed and respectful, neither of which you actually are, you wouldn't know direct talk if it were smiling in your face. I would say that it is you who offers up some of the most inane stuff I have ever seen on this board, northern piker. Why don't you stick with something you are familiar with?

EsoxLucius · « **Reply #18 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:34:24 AM »

Deja vu all over again. Pot calling the kettle black.

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=12668;sa=showPosts

Bush Master · « **Reply #19 on:** July 25, 2006, 08:57:16 AM »

I am failing to follow your so-called point here do you have one for a change?

Casull · « **Reply #20 on:** July 25, 2006, 09:37:18 AM »

BM, I really don't know why it bothers you so much what I do or don't do for a living. I only mentioned my profession in a prior thread because you accused me, and apparently anyone who doesn't agree with your inane drivel, as being an uninformed Joe sixpack. By the way, that is quite a mistake when you claim 55-60 innocents killed in botched paramilitary style police raids, when you are talking about all accidental police killings. Particularly when you further claimed that the chance of that happening during your father's or grandfather's time as ZERO. Am I to believe that fifty years ago police never accidentally (or purposefully for that matter) killed anyone. Oh well, you'll just twist the facts to fit your next tirade (or more likely just make them up).

EL,,,,,who was talking to you?,
Sorry, fellows, didn't know this was a private party.

Bush Master · « **Reply #21 on:** July 25, 2006, 09:53:11 AM »

What you do for a lving is of no concern to me, it is your lying that bothers me. I admitted my mistake and corrected it and you take me to task for that too. I do not recall there being nearly as many accidental police killings of innocents and niether did my father or grandfather, so compared to 55 - 60 today that is an icrease of several hundred percent. There is no common ground for us Casull, you are bigoted, narrow minded and steadfastly refuse to even contemplate anything that challenges your preconcieved ideas, the very definition of an uninformed Joe Sixpack. That's fine, go back to your network news and your beer and enjoy your superiority over the rest of us poor mortals. I love poking you with a stick to see your reaction, I find you funny, amusing, you know, like a clown.

victorcharlie · « **Reply #22 on:** July 25, 2006, 09:57:08 AM »

Quote from: EsoxLucius on July 25, 2006, 05:59:13 AM

Bush Master, have you ever considered that the facetious banter between TM7, victorcharlie and you might insult others? You assume that because a response does not fit in with your particular world view that you know everything about that person's attitudes and philosophies. Well, I don't think you have a clue. I guess you guys can dish it out but can't take some pointed observations.

Well, pardon me......didn't mean to insult anyone........

Do I love liberty? Yes I do........Do I trust my security with anyone other than myself? No I don't.

I have been a very loyal Republican all my life having never voted for a democrat in a general election.

Am I very disappointed in the Republicans? Yes I am, especially the Senate and the Whitehouse.

Do I want more of the same? No I don't, and both parties seek the same end..........It's just a difference in how we get there.

I didn't start as a Liberitarian......but the principles of government have changed so much over the past couple of centuries that I'm convinced that the current administration/government is no longer concerned about life, liberty or the pursuit of happiness.......and has forgotten the constitution and the principles it was based on and has embraced Marxism.

I watched a 1998 interview with Chief Justice William Renquist a couple of nights ago......one of the things I got from his observation is the way the country moves with the political winds.........

I'd like to see the wind out of the south for awhile..........

Again, ask Randy Weaver if he thinks this is a police state.............

victorcharlie · « **Reply #23 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:03:25 AM »

Sorry to post again so soon, but did anyone catch the report of black men, tortured by Chicago police during the 1970's and 1980's in order to gain a confession to a crime that they had no proof the men commited?

ShadowMover · « **Reply #24 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:04:02 AM »

Every 'law enforcement' group I know of from taxi cab authority cops to BLM rangers are starting their own SWAT teams. Who can pass up a chance to dress up in black and play Ninja warrior?

For those who want to look at a web page with some information here is one:
http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

I doubt if it is a complete list. I know of a few where I live that are not on the list. A hooker was arrested and the cops went to her apartment after taking her to jail. Her boyfriend, who was asleep there, with her kid, was awakened by these two guys breaking in, in civilian clothes, and was choked to death. A knock on the door would have saved his life in this warrant-less search.

If you want just use Google with:
"police raid" deaths
as the search words and start reading. It's a long list. Many are legitimate, but many are not.
BTW the Bill of Rights guarantees us to safe and secure in our homes, papers and possessions, not that the police will be safe or should be facilitated in their actions.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Bush Master · « **Reply #25 on:** July 25, 2006, 10:22:10 AM »

Yes, Victor Charlie, I caught the report and the State's Attorney is claiming the statue of limitations has expired so they cannot prosecute the cops.

ShadowMover, Cato was very adamant about this only being a partial list and they are sure there are many more that never made it to the news.

Casull · « **Reply #26 on:** July 25, 2006, 11:41:55 AM »

you are bigoted, narrow minded and steadfastly refuse to even contemplate anything that challenges your preconcieved ideas, the very definition of an uninformed Joe Sixpack

That's funny BM, I was just going to say the same thing about you. I'm glad I amuse you, as you have caused me so much joy. I know all I have to do is question any of your ideas, and you will make an ass of yourself, guaranteed. It would be nice to have you simply respond with facts or reasoned thoughts, but I quess its easier for you to scream "narrow minded bigot" and think you made your point. Any way, you keep poking and I'll keep laughing.