Author Topic: So what do you think should be a functional minimum? (Read 4693 times)

JJHACK · « **on:** July 20, 2006, 12:38:36 PM »

Funny how calm and gentle they look when you get a snap from inside the truck while passing the pride along side the road!

Trust me, this calm look would be very short if there were something he wanted, or something that upset him!

This guy is no bargain at this range either. Sure your bullet might kill him, in 30 seconds to a minute, but at 40 yards he will have 15 seconds to 45 seconds to give you a hard time before he goes!

What is needed to say about this? My camera is on a tripod 20 feet or so in front of him. I was set for a nice photo at the moment he decided he had enough. We took off as he came through the trees. We came back about an hour later to get my camera still sitting there untouched. I fully expected it to be thrashed because it had Human scent on it. For some reason he never touched it?

No gun made feels big enough in this situation, but I suppose until you get to this point it's easy to assume a smaller or more complicated action or special load should work "in theory". These conditions are no place to test theories. I suppose it's why extensive training is requiredy for a Professional hunter. Also why non residents cannot wander around by themselves in the bush to test those theories out!

Bigboar · « **Reply #1 on:** July 21, 2006, 11:27:29 AM »

JJ,

Great post.

Bigboar

leverfan · « **Reply #2 on:** July 22, 2006, 08:26:48 PM »

In order to determine a functional minimum, I would:

Book a reliable PH with good references.

Ask his advice on rifle/cartridge choice.

Follow it.

Practice with it before leaving for the hunt.

Trust my PH to have a good "stopper" rifle to back up my "hunter" rifle, just in case.

DanP · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2006, 08:51:14 AM »

Quote from: leverfan on July 22, 2006, 08:26:48 PM

In order to determine a functional minimum, I would:

Book a reliable PH with good references.

Ask his advice on rifle/cartridge choice.

Follow it.

Practice with it before leaving for the hunt.

Trust my PH to have a good "stopper" rifle to back up my "hunter" rifle, just in case.

Err... JJack *is* such a person... and HE's asking the question!

Dan

Grumulkin · « **Reply #4 on:** July 30, 2006, 12:38:55 AM »

I kind of like the 458 Lott. I'd go with something bigger like a 20 mm cannon but then it would probably kill me when I shot it.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #5 on:** July 30, 2006, 07:16:28 AM »

EVERY one of those animals has been taken with a 30-06 but this old guy is not going to be the one who tries it again just to prove the first time was not a fluke!!

Grumulkin · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2006, 03:55:15 PM »

I've gone through about 5 Peter H. Capstick books lately (well worth reading). In one he mentions two elephants that were taken with a single shot each with a 40 grain 22 LR bullet so I guess you don't really even need a 30/06 if you're very good and very lucky. Bullet placement and bullet construction are both the big keys to success. I will compensate for my lack of confidence with a big gun.

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2006, 10:05:31 AM »

me i would get something in the .500 Jeffries or 458win.mag. i saw on T.V they were hunting buffs and 4 shots from the 500 and 2 shot from the 458win took it down. on lion i would use the 30/06 or 300win but for big things better safe than dead.

Dusty Miller · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2006, 05:03:29 PM »

For Africa hunting, I'd use the '06 on a rodent!!

TreyAzagthoth · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2006, 07:45:57 PM »

hmmm 458 win mag, 470 nitro express.

leverfan · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2006, 09:42:32 PM »

Quote from: DanP on July 27, 2006, 08:51:14 AM

Err... JJack *is* such a person... and HE's asking the question!

Dan

Yep, and I believe he's asking it to get some of the armchair experts around here to think about their choices a little more carefully.

JJ knows what a hunter should bring, he knows what he should use as back up, so he doesn't really want an answer from me. I suspect he's tired of explaining why folks' favorite deer rounds won't really work as well for large African game. If I'm wrong, perhaps he'll correct me.

DanP · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2006, 09:56:34 AM »

For lion, I've read some hunters having been happy with their .340 wby. However, I understand when they're charging, their muscular development on the front of their chests is hard to penetrate. Normal DGR stuff with all the penetration you'd want for buff.

.416's, .458's, .475's are all "stoppers" with good bullets... but that's really not the answer.

Getting good shot placement, being determined to TAKE that shot (I've heard shooting lions who are charging you is hard -- one tends to shoot over them; best to go down on your knee and shoot kneeling -- do you have the guts to do that when he's coming at you? or is that just someone's armchair theory that I read?) -- Can you figure out the geometry to brain that elephant (brain near the back of its skull -- imagine a stick through the ear-holes, and aim for the middle of that... when he's at 20 ft?). How about that buff? Try to brain him? Hit him around -- maybe just below -- his left ear lobe? Be ready to shoot and keep shooting... you won't get many shots if you don't get him staggering... start by trying to break him down (a PH told me that...)

But JJack gave the answer he's going for: no gun feels big enough in those situations, if looking at the pictures didn't make that point... The point is to get the idea of theories out of one's head...

Jack -- what is your answer: what is enough? and does it have so much to do with the gun, as it does the readiness of the person holding that gun?

Dan

jamaldog87 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 01, 2006, 02:31:34 PM »

your very right. but if you had to get a gun i would think from seeing people hunting them on T.V a 458win.mag should do it. i saw them put down a elephant head-on( they got 3 shot to the back of the head after it was down to kill it) but DanP your right if you can't hit it or take the shot no gun will help you.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #13 on:** August 02, 2006, 03:21:11 AM »

I'd use a fiberglass dbl wall shaft tipped with a Magnus Stinger and pushed by 85# @ 29.5". BUT if you don't have the nads for it best stay in the truck or camp with the old lady doing laundry.

Coppertop · « **Reply #14 on:** September 07, 2006, 09:23:16 AM »

JJ

I'm wanting to go to Africa and have a firearms question for you. At this time I'm only planning on going one time and only really want plains game. Gemsbok is the only animal I REALLY want and then to take some others like warthog and bushbuck would be great. I don't really want any DG or any Buffalo but won't say no if a good one stands up and begs me to shoot it. I also hunt deer, Elk and other game here in Wy. -

Now finally to my question. Is a .325 WSM a functional minimum? I am wanting to get one gun for all my hunting. I have a .270 win. and have hunted it for about 20 years but it is getting shot out (rifiling) and it's a good excuse for a new gun.

Thanks for all your help.

JJHACK · « **Reply #15 on:** September 07, 2006, 09:50:57 AM »

The 325 would not be legal for the bigger animals but is a near perfect plains game rifle. I can see no down side to the round for most of the worlds big game.
It's limitations would be for Rhino, elephant, hippo, and Buffalo. These are legal issues not just functional issues. Since that new rifle will cost a thousand bucks or so and the trophy fee for the bigger animals will be 10 times that amount or more, in some cases much more, it's prudent to spend enough to get the rifle that will really knock them down and work properly then to try and use a functional but marginal cartridge that could cost you the expensive trophy fee for an animal you never recover.

I like the info I've seen on the 325, and from my experience with various cartridges it sounds as if it's got the whole range of big game covered pretty well. Just not the few "super sized" big game listed above

Don Fischer · « **Reply #16 on:** September 08, 2006, 11:38:27 AM »

JJ, I would shoot the dangerious game exactly the same way you did, a camera. I know this is off track but, you take some beautiful photo's! I've looked at your site several times. Go there just to look at the gallery. Like flora and fauna best. Great stuff!! Digital or film?

JJHACK · « **Reply #17 on:** September 08, 2006, 02:37:40 PM »

Wow, thanks Don!

I usa a Canon 1SIS digital

and a

Canon AE1 with a huge selection of lenses up to 300mm f2.8 which is a whopper of a lens.

I also use a 200mm f1.8 which is my favorite match for great wildlife photos. Still big and heavy stuff compared to digitals though

Don Fischer · « **Reply #18 on:** September 09, 2006, 04:19:58 AM »

It takes big heavy stuff to shoot big heavy stuff!
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.Sorry, I couldn't resist that!

nasem · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2006, 06:41:02 AM »

You just gave me a new idea for a new thread....

How come there is never a semi-auto gun that can handle bullets like 375 H&h, 416 or even the 458 Lott.

Prebanpaul · « **Reply #20 on:** October 19, 2006, 05:07:07 PM »

NASEM THERE IS A GUN THAT WILL DO JUST THAT. IT IS A M1 GRAND THAT IS CONVERTED TO SHOOT THE 458 WIN MAG. I WILL TAKE MY 500 SMITH OVER THERE AND BE DONE WITH IT.

jpsmith1 · « **Reply #21 on:** October 20, 2006, 12:31:40 AM »

It's amazing how littlle I've read here about the .375 H&H. It's the classic 'big game' caliber and proven potent enough for all game in Africa. My dream is to SOMEDAY hunt there, but right now, I've got kids to raise.

I think that, truly, the key is shot placement. Toting a .416 or .458 if you aren't competent with it is worse than carrying your '06. If you can't hit the target, the odds of JJHACK having to do the worst part of his job increases.

Here's a thought to stir up trouble. What about a .45-70? Loaded with 500 grain hard cast bullets, it's a penetration machine and the compact lever action allows several rapid follow-up shots without removing the gun from the shoulder. Add a peep sight or 2-5x scope and you've got yourself a game gun, I'd say.

As far as my personal selection for caliber to hunt with. I'd either take a .375 JDJ or .45-70 in a T/C contender or a .454 Casull revolver. Loaded to max, all three are PROVEN on big game and would be very satisfying on a personal level to use.

When the game bites back, though, it might be prudent to carry both...

Don Fischer · « **Reply #22 on:** October 20, 2006, 06:08:28 AM »

One thing that stands out, to this arm chair critic, is the general feeling is that nothing is really big enough. That being the case I would think that the right choice would be the largest cartridge with a suitable bullet that you can handle. What good does it do to carry a 458 Lott if you can't shoot it? I would think that in the case of a normal 1st shot, we're not talking about a charge. Therefore that all important 1st shot needs to be placed as well as possible. That might not be done if your worrying about loosing a few teeth to the rifle on recoil. I don't know if the 375 H&H is legal for all that game, but if it is, I'd concentrate on which bullet to use in it. About that I'll have to do a lot more thinking but probally some type 300gr solid on all but the lion and premium expanding 300gr on the lion.

jro45 · « **Reply #23 on:** October 21, 2006, 09:58:06 AM »

I would say the 375 H&H shooting 300gr bullets with some solids. Shot placement is critical.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #24 on:** October 22, 2006, 09:08:19 AM »

And I would say that shooting at any of the above animals with anything that can be fired from the shoulder, shot placement would be critical. The point being that these are all concidered dangerious game and most, maybe all, may well NOT be stopped with a solid body shot.

deltecs · « **Reply #25 on:** April 15, 2007, 01:00:09 PM »

If we are the ethical hunters we tout ourselves, then the ideal weapon and caliper is one that places the bullets exactly where we want them for an humane, quick, relatively painless kill. This reasoning should apply for all game and not just shot placement on DG. JJ's question was what is the functional minimum for DG? The minimum is already decided by African Regulations per country. After looking at these photos, would a person still think the .338 Winchester is an adequate rifle for stopping a determined DG charge? And is the weapon in the hands of us hunters in this situation, big enough to do the job? It might be too big too. Which weapon combination of caliber, bullet selection, optics, and weight is the right one with enough oomph to place the critical shot in the right place under duress? That's for us to determine long before we get to the safari.

GEMSBUCK · « **Reply #26 on:** April 16, 2007, 06:15:19 AM »

Quote from: deltecs on April 15, 2007, 01:00:09 PM

.... After looking at these photos, would a person still think the .338 Winchester is an adequate rifle for stopping a determined DG charge? And is the weapon in the hands of us hunters in this situation, big enough to do the job? It might be too big too. Which weapon combination of caliber, bullet selection, optics, and weight is the right one with enough oomph to place the critical shot in the right place under duress? That's for us to determine long before we get to the safari.

I don't know about you or JJ but I'd rather be standing shoulder to shoulder with someone that is good with a 338WM than someone whom is afraid of a 458 Lott and can't handle it well, when that buffalo or lion decides we interupted his nap.

deltecs · « **Reply #27 on:** April 16, 2007, 10:31:22 AM »

Quote from: GEMSBUCK on April 16, 2007, 06:15:19 AM

Quote from: deltecs on April 15, 2007, 01:00:09 PM
.... After looking at these photos, would a person still think the .338 Winchester is an adequate rifle for stopping a determined DG charge? And is the weapon in the hands of us hunters in this situation, big enough to do the job? It might be too big too. Which weapon combination of caliber, bullet selection, optics, and weight is the right one with enough oomph to place the critical shot in the right place under duress? That's for us to determine long before we get to the safari.

I don't know about you or JJ but I'd rather be standing shoulder to shoulder with someone that is good with a 338WM than someone whom is afraid of a 458 Lott and can't handle it well, when that buffalo or lion decides we interupted his nap.

Me too, if you notice I clearly stated that it might be too big too. The object was to handle the largest weapon applicable to the game and handle it well. I'd much rather be standing shoulder to shoulder with a man who can handle a 404 Jeffrey or 416 Rigby that is good than with either suggestion with the .338 or .458. This applies to weapons used in Alaska too.

K.K · « **Reply #28 on:** April 17, 2007, 03:56:28 PM »

I agree. The only thing that I have hunted is whitetails, so far. I will go to Africa some day soon. I practice with, and shoot big bores frequently, but I have never felt the recoil or worried about it on game. Certainly, I would not be worried about recoil in those situations! Great photos!

jim dab · « **Reply #29 on:** April 19, 2007, 07:06:23 PM »

Coppertop as far as the WSM is concerned I will probably to have to buy the one I kind of talk a friend into buying. Simple fact is they jam alot, at least this one does and it's not the only one I've heard of that jams. Paying alot for a hunt and travelling half way around the world you don't need feeding problems.

Jim