209 Primers

[kb]

Has anyone compared the 209's for what is the hottest, and what is not?  The crud ring thing is annoying, and one would think that the manufactures would notice that there is a nitche in the market to fill.  Remmington has tried, has anyone tried theirs yet?

I have thought of the .25 acp breechplug, but I would rather keep it simple - one more thing to juggle around, but I might have to go this way if things dont improve....

kb

[Redhawk1]

I am using Remington's Kleen bore primers right now in my Encore Pro-hunter, and I shot 9 of the 250 gr. T/C bonded shock waves without a problem, I use triple 7 powder. I have on order from my gun shop the Winchester triple 7 primers. The Winchester triple 7 primers are new so I don't know how well they are going to work with the triple 7, but they are supposed to be made for triple 7  to help reduce the crud ring.

I also have a Encore 50 Cal M/L that I am using the 25 ACP primers and don't get a crud ring with triple 7 powder or pellets. I can shoot over 15 times without swabbing the bore, I am using the Precision Rifle DC 195 gr. duplex sabot's.  It is not any different than carrying 209 primers, but they are easier to handle over the 29 primers.

Hope this helps. 

[GRIMJIM]

I ended up doing the 25 acp conversion after reading so many good reviews on this site. It is kind of a drag having to buy the extra equipment to deprime and prime the cases but the advantages in my opinion far outweigh the 30 bucks worth of stuff you have to buy. tighter groups, less fouling and they are a little bigger and therefore easier to handle than the primers, especially with cold hands.

[Biff Mayhem]

I thought I saw these at Walmart yesterday.

http://www.winchester.com/products/newitems/whatsnewcontent.aspx?productid=36

[Redhawk1]

I ended up doing the 25 acp conversion after reading so many good reviews on this site. It is kind of a drag having to buy the extra equipment to deprime and prime the cases but the advantages in my opinion far outweigh the 30 bucks worth of stuff you have to buy. tighter groups, less fouling and they are a little bigger and therefore easier to handle than the primers, especially with cold hands.

I fell the same way, I tried to have my Pro-hunters breech plug modified, but the gunsmith said it could not be done in the 25 ACP. The new design in the breech plug will not let a rimless case to be used. So I am back to the 209 design and just have to find one that meets my needs.

[kudzu]

In my Savage MLII, I started out with the win. then switched to the Fed.
Was getting alot of crud with them. tried several more and settled on the CCI mag. They seen to get a lot less buildup and I am getting more consistant groups.

good luck,DM

[Nic_58]

I have used the .25 ACP conversion breechplug in my Omega for the last two years.  It works great and I can't argue with the accuracy that the gun gives me, but I do agree it is a pain in the butt priming/depriming/cleaning brass,etc.   It would be much simpler to use just a regular 'ole 209 primer.  I too have the Triple Se7en 209's on order from my local shop and I'm gonna try them in my Omega.  If they are clean and provide the accuracy I'm used to, then I'm probably going to retire the ACP conversion.  BUT, that is yet to be seen.  Only some time at the range will tell.  I've read 2 or 3 good reports on the new Winchester Triple Se7en 209's including this report......
http://modernmuzzleloader.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3882
It sounds like they are going to be a good product for Pyrodex/Triple Se7en users!

[JoeG52]

Here is another option.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jsp?id=0034484215982a&type=product&cmCat=search&returnPage=search-results1.jsp&QueryText=variflame&N=4887&Ntk=Products&Ntx=mode+matchall&Nty=1&Ntt=variflame&noImage=0

[Bullseye]

I tried regular CCI's and the crud ring was a little better but the accuracy went way south (from 1" to 4" groups at 50 yards).  I have had some of the Remingtons since last fall and got some of the Winchester 777's at Gander Mountain a couple of months ago.  I just have not been shooting the muzzleloader lately and have never tested either one.  It is on my list of things to do.

I actually order the 25 ACP conversion kit and the shellholder for my primer tool.  I then sold it before I ever used it.  I started thinking about having to clean the 25 ACP cases and then re-prime them and came to my senses and thought what am I messing with all this extra crap for.  I do get a small crudring using standard Winchester 209 primers, but I can load 5 shots at a time before cleaning and the accuracy is great.  Seems in my case this was going to be a lot more of a hassle to solve a problem I really did not have very bad.

[Redhawk1]

I tried regular CCI's and the crud ring was a little better but the accuracy went way south (from 1" to 4" groups at 50 yards).  I have had some of the Remingtons since last fall and got some of the Winchester 777's at Gander Mountain a couple of months ago.  I just have not been shooting the muzzleloader lately and have never tested either one.  It is on my list of things to do.

I actually order the 25 ACP conversion kit and the shellholder for my primer tool.  I then sold it before I ever used it.  I started thinking about having to clean the 25 ACP cases and then re-prime them and came to my senses and thought what am I messing with all this extra crap for.  I do get a small crudring using standard Winchester 209 primers, but I can load 5 shots at a time before cleaning and the accuracy is great.  Seems in my case this was going to be a lot more of a hassle to solve a problem I really did not have very bad.

In one of my muzzleloaders my groups got better with the 25 ACP as well as no crud ring, but with the new Pro-hunter I can't go with the 25 ACP conversion. So I am forced to use the 209 primers. But like you said, I am not having much problems with the Remington kleen bore primers and have yet to try the Winchester triple seven primers.  The only thing I really miss is the size of the 25 ACP cases when hunting in the cold and wearing gloves. The 25 ACP is a lot easer to handle than a 209. 

[poncaguy]

I had some misfires with 777 pellets and Reminginton 209's, switched to the Winchester, have had no failures............

[Redhawk1]

I had some misfires with 777 pellets and Reminginton 209's, switched to the Winchester, have had no failures............

I have had zero misfires with the Remington Kleen bore primers and triple 7 powder.

[Carroll B]

This year I will take in the woods my Omega with 777 pellets, Rem clean bore primers , and some alcohol prep pads (the kind you get at the drug store).  At the range I swab the bore between shots with the alcohol, it dries fast, and the 2nd or the 12th sabot loads like the gun has never been fired.  Today shooting a combination of Hornday 245 gr SST and some Barnes Spit fire sabots using both 777 pellets and also loose Pyrodex I put 6 holes in the target at 50 yds that could be covered with a 50 cent coin.  More then enough for the shots I get in the mid-Atlantic which are seldom over 40 yards.  I only plan to use the second shot if another deer comes by while I'm gutting the first one.     I don't feel like loading another case like the 25 ACP and the alcohol pads clean out the crud ring.

[Biff Mayhem]

I had some misfires with 777 pellets and Reminginton 209's, switched to the Winchester, have had no failures............

Which failed to fire..... 209 primer or the powder?''
What gun was used?

[NimrodRx]

Three years ago I personally had two occasions on which T7 (50grx2) pellets did not ignite.  The rifle is a .50cal Knight Disc Elite.  I was using Winchester 209 primers.  Both occasions occurred in the field and they both cost me a deer - one a dandy buck.  In both cases, I got a "pop" from my primer and then watched my sabot/bullet dribble out of the bore of my rifle.  Both occurred on down right miserable days.  I'm talking, cold, wet snow coming down pretty hard.  I'm certain I got moisture in the bore and during the course of the day it made its way down the rifling to the pellets. 

Now, I use loose T7 and cover my bore with a finger cot if the weather is inclimate.  Had I been using loose T7 3 yrs ago would my rifle have went off in those two situations?  Impossible to know.  I do know this though, shooting two 50gr pellets over a 300gr Barnes Expander consistently produces between 80-100 fps lower velocity out of my rifle than 100gr of loose T7 under the same bullet.  That tells me that either the pellets don't burn as well or they are a little shy of 100gr.  Either way, I still have a full box of T7 50 gr pellets on the shelf that will never see the bore of my rifle.  If anyone is in the mid-Michigan area, I'd make ya a heck of a deal on them (hazmat prevents shipping). 

[Biff Mayhem]

Use em' for fouling shots. Take one pellet and shove it down with an empty plastic sabot in front of it.  Makes noticeably less noise than a sabot/bullet.

[poncaguy]

Was using 3 777 pellets, primer popped, buy weakly, didn't fire the pellets.........did this 2 or 3 times, with different primers and different 777's.......put in a Winchester primer, fired right off........

[smoky]

Redhawk1,

You say that the new Pro Hunter won't take the .25acp converion because the new breech plug won't work with the rimless cartridge.  But what about the orignal from PR, that being a shortened 22 hornet case.  Aren't those rimmed, or am I mistaken?

Smoky

[Redhawk1]

Redhawk1,

You say that the new Pro Hunter won't take the .25acp converion because the new breech plug won't work with the rimless cartridge.  But what about the orignal from PR, that being a shortened 22 hornet case.  Aren't those rimmed, or am I mistaken?

Smoky

No you are not mistaken, I was told by David White that the modification could be done with the 22 Hornet cases, but you have to send in the new style breach plug and extractor to have them modified. The cost would be close to $75.00 to $100.00. He has all the measurements, he used my barrel and breach plug to take all the measurements. 

[S.B.]

Do you guys still use never seize grease and or teflon tape on your breech plugs with the new and improved primers?

[Redhawk1]

Do you guys still use never seize grease and or teflon tape on your breech plugs with the new and improved primers?

I use shooter choice high temp grease on mine. Even with the reduced chance of the breech plug fouling I like the shooter choice high temp grease.

[alleyyooper]

Just read an interesting article about the strengths of various 209 primers.  With all the talk around here about the infamous 777 crud ring, I thought I’d post the link here.
 
Strength ranking of various 209 primers are included within article.
 
Worth a read.

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

  Al

[GRIMJIM]

That was interesting, thanks for the post.

[Redhawk1]

Just read an interesting article about the strengths of various 209 primers.  With all the talk around here about the infamous 777 crud ring, I thought I’d post the link here.
 
Strength ranking of various 209 primers are included within article.
 
Worth a read.

http://hpmuzzleloading.com/Technical3.html

  Al

Very good read. Thanks 

[kb]

I do know this though, shooting two 50gr pellets over a 300gr Barnes Expander consistently produces between 80-100 fps lower velocity out of my rifle than 100gr of loose T7 under the same bullet.  That tells me that either the pellets don't burn as well or they are a little shy of 100gr.

I had the same question a few years ago, and decided to pull out my reloading scale.  The 50g pellets are lighter in weight then 50g powder in volume (in weight).

kb

[Busta]

The pellets have been manufactured by Hodgdon to be the equivelant of 50 grains of Black Powder by volume. Both 777 pellets and Pyrodex pellets have been made this way. That is also why 777 pellets are a lot smaller than Pyrodex pellets, that way they are near equivelants, not in size but energy wise. 85 grains of 777 FFG or 80 grains 777 FFFG loose powder is equivelant to 100 grains of Black Powder or 100 grains 777/Pyrodex pellets. So even though 777 loose cost more than other powders, you use less of it to do the same job.

That is also why a 777 3 pellet load (150 grains) is equivelant to around 110 -120 grains by volume of loose 777 powder. This same 3 pellet load (150 grains) will also be the equivelant of 150 grains by volume/weight of standard Black Powder.

Swiss Black Powder is also hotter than say Goex and other standard Black Powders and may be the exception to the above rule.

[Biff Mayhem]

The pellets have been manufactured by Hodgdon to be the equivelant of 50 grains of Black Powder by volume. Both 777 pellets and Pyrodex pellets have been made this way. That is also why 777 pellets are a lot smaller than Pyrodex pellets, that way they are near equivelants, not in size but energy wise. 85 grains of 777 FFG or 80 grains 777 FFFG loose powder is equivelant to 100 grains of Black Powder or 100 grains 777/Pyrodex pellets. So even though 777 loose cost more than other powders, you use less of it to do the same job.

That is also why a 777 3 pellet load (150 grains) is equivelant to around 110 -120 grains by volume of loose 777 powder. This same 3 pellet load (150 grains) will also be the equivelant of 150 grains by volume/weight of standard Black Powder.

Swiss Black Powder is also hotter than say Goex and other standard Black Powders and may be the exception to the above rule.

Actually, the 777 pellets mirror Pyrodex pellets in energy and speed for safety reasons/concerns -- not in volume.

The average three 777 pellet contains 126 grains (42 grains (volume) apiece).

That also "somewhat" explains poster KB's theory about 777 pellets being lighter in weight than Pyrodex.

[S.B.]

I was lucky enough to find one hundred Remington Kleen bore primers and a pound of triple seven loose powder last night. Some of you must have very understanding hardware stores where you live. Seem to take forever to get some of the stuff I'm looking for, around here? Moar of the time, technology changes before supply catches up with it around here.

[UtahRob]

I bought the 25 acp  kit and  have gone back to the Klean bore primers.
The brass primer holders in the 25 kit are a pain to re-prime and we  kept losing them.
I get great accuracy with the Klean bore primers and stocked up on them as soon as Wal Mart stocked them for the season.

Muzzlelloade deer season is two weeks away  . And Elk, Just around the corner !!!! 

                                                                                           Rob

[slave]

I have found the new Win 777 209 primers  reduce the crud ring as well as anything. My groups from an Encore and its pet load are as good as anything I have loaded. They do seem to allow a bit more blow by than some other 209 I have used.