Author Topic: New Member Needs Help  (Read 830 times)

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Offline vern

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New Member Needs Help
« on: July 22, 2006, 03:03:28 PM »
I am trying to locate or build a black powder cannon for making some real noise.  I am not interested in firing golf balls or tennis balls, I just want to make some noise.  Years ago I experimented with some black powder and a lead pipe with excellent results but I wanted to make something a little safer and more professional.  I reload my own ammunition so I am familiar with powders and safety hazards.

Any help would be appreciated.   

Offline GGaskill

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2006, 03:08:31 PM »
First, I'll say DO NOT MAKE ANY CANNONS USING WATER PIPE!  It is not strong enough to make a safe barrel.

Next, you'll need to tell us about yourself and what equipment and machinery you have so we can make appropriate suggestions.  In the mean time, look all around the forum and its extensions and see what's there to be seen.
GG
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Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2006, 03:11:27 PM »
I am goog with my hands but I don't have any metal working tools like lathes, etc.  Carriages are no problem since woodworking is my hobby, but I may need to buy a pre-made barrel.

Is schedule 40 stainless steel pipe an appropriate material for a barrel?

thanks

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2006, 04:11:46 PM »
Vermin -
Welcome to the board!

Blackpowder and LEAD pipe ???  Lead has so LITTLE strength I'm surprized it wasn't a good bomb!

I suggest doing a LOT more reading (like a number of the threads herein) and consider something something commercially made until you've got your feet well placed on the ground.

Three things go together:  good design, correct materials and prudent loading practices.  Be a master at these three if you're building your own.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline Double D

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2006, 07:31:49 PM »
...is schedule 40 stainless steel pipe an appropriate material for a barrel?
thanks


In  word NO!  Use a seamless tube.

Welcome to the board!!! How's that for a welcome we start by telling you no! It a kindly and good intentioned no.

Gonna start you off with some home work.  First your reading assignment.

  • Warning
    Shooting cannons is not like shooting a big over sized muzzleloader.  There  is a completely different set of internal ballistics  involved.   Read up on cannon shooting before you acquire a cannon. Suggested reading is THE MORE COMPLETE CANNONEER  By M.C. Switlik with selected excerpts from other artillery manuals
    The book can be ordered from these two suppliers by clicking on these hotlinks:
    The Complete Cannoneer from Matt Switlik[/i][/url]
    South Bend Replica The Complete Cannoneer

And second another reading assignment, this from the Cannon resource list stuck to the top of the forum. It applies to anyone you might find to do business with especially on the interenet.

  • CAVEAT EMPTOR
    Contact these sites for information about their products before ordering. Dealers may not update their sites frequently. Dealers may list products that they no longer have and may have products not listed. It’s best to send them an email or make a phone call to inquire about what they have before[/b] ordering. On large websites use the website’s search function to find what you are looking for or use your browser find function to search.

    Do your research,before[/b] you order.  Query the Companies on http://www.google.com .  Use the Search function on GBO. Find out what is being said about the companies before[/b] ordering..  Make sure you know who you are dealing with and where they are before[/b] ordering..  Get contact information, including email address, business addresses, and telephone numbers, before[/b] ordering.

    Before[/b] you send money, communicate with the company.  Ask about delivery dates, back order and stock availability.  Lock down delivery dates.  If possible, pay with a credit card or postal money order.  Don’t send cash, grocery store money orders or cashiers checks.  Keep records of every contact and transaction.

    Keep in mind that a lot of these products are unique items.  You won't find them at Wal-Mart.  The items are often hand made by craftsmen who work out of their garage.  These people often have a real job and work on these products in their spare time. It is time consuming and costly to set up and make these articles.   Be patient.

    I can not vouch for the reliability of any of these sites.  You must deal with them with caution.  I am only providing this list a resource.
 

One other Before...Before you order make a query here on this board and ask about the company.
 

Offline GGaskill

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2006, 08:03:25 PM »
Even schedule 80 pipe in the sizes likely to be used for cannons is pressure rated at less than 1000 psi (and some sizes are less than 500 psi.)  This is more than an order of magnitude less than you should have when dealing with black powder pressures.  Stay away from pipe; it's not strong enough.

There are two ways to acquire a cannon--make one or buy one.  If you don't have a lathe (and probably a mill too), the first option is not available unless you can attend my cannon making class next summer (shameless plug.)  (-:
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2006, 01:02:59 AM »
Thanks to everyone for the advice.  Safety is a real concern for me, I have known friends over the years who are missing fingers from playing with things that go bang.  But is there a difference in the strength requirements between a noise making cannon and the real thing?  It would seem that if I am just going to be using an open ended barrel, that I wouldn't need something that could withstand 70,000 psi.  Does anyone know how the chamber pressures compare between firing a blank shot and firing a loaded cannon?  I don't want to scrimp on materials and make something unsafe, but I also don't want to invest in something that I will never use to fire projectiles.

Also, I love the smell of blackpowder smoke, should I seek the services of a therapist?

Thanks,
Vermin

Offline GGaskill

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2006, 02:49:03 AM »
But is there a difference in the strength requirements between a noise making cannon and the real thing?  It would seem that if I am just going to be using an open ended barrel, that I wouldn't need something that could withstand 70,000 psi.  Does anyone know how the chamber pressures compare between firing a blank shot and firing a loaded cannon?  I don't want to scrimp on materials and make something unsafe, but I also don't want to invest in something that I will never use to fire projectiles.

Your questions hit pretty much the salient points on this subject.  The difference between a noise making cannon and a shot launching cannon is the operator.  Unless you can guarantee that it will never ever be used to fire a projectile, it is an accident waiting to happen when someone does so.  Maybe not you, maybe not while you own it, but unless it is destroyed when you cease to use it, the problem remains.

Technically, one of the problems of backyard/home shop cannon making is the lack of engineering put into them.  The chamber pressures are not known, so people take that as an excuse to do no calculations and use poor designs.  Normally the maximum charge for a projectile launching shot is about half that of a blank shot.  The extra powder in a blank shot becomes the "projectile" so that pressure is raised to the point that the report is a boom instead of a whoosh.  So there is some pressure developed even though we don't know the actual number.

The use of 70,000 psi material does not mean the actual stresses in the material are allowed to reach 70,000 psi.  Normally you limit the actual stesses to about half the maximum stress to prevent fatigue failure over a number of shots.  But building to the absolute minimum of material is not something that should be done without actually doing the math, and that requires tested chamber pressure figures, and still doesn't address the issue of the barrel eventually being used outside the design criteria by launching shot.

The "literature" is filled with reports of people injured or killed by explosions of defectively designed and poorly made "cannons" so the risk of such a device is very high.  Many times the guns have been fired more than once without accident before they finally let go.  I strongly suggest you stay away from an inadequate design.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2006, 03:09:24 AM »
I see your point and couldn't agree more.  I am looking to buy a pre-made barrel with a bore diameter somewhere around an inch.  I have already checked the web sites recommended on this forum and have found them to be useful but I didn't see many selling just the barrel and in the size I want.  Does anyone knew of a reputable barrel maker who builds a barrel this size?

thanks
Vermin

Offline Double D

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2006, 03:28:51 AM »
Good sound advice there coming from George..

You would be surprised how many people new to the field come here and after we give them this advice,  argue.  I thank you for listening.

Go back to the cannon Supplies post stuck to the top of the board and look at the very first post in that thread.  That is a list of our board sponsors.  Contact each one of those people and ask them to make you a cannon.

If you can't find one of our sponsor to make you just the barrel, contact each of the companise on the resource list and ask them.  My guess is you will never get beyond our sponsors to this list.


Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2006, 03:39:15 AM »
Thanks Double D and George.  I want to keep all my fingers and have fun!

Safety first.

Offline CU_Cannon

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2006, 03:59:38 AM »
Welcome!  It is refreshing that we have someone that is both aware of the dangers and wiling to listen to the advice given. 

You might try a Hern barrel.  I don’t have any experience with them so I can’t comment on their quality.  Others can jump in and give more specifics on Hern barrels the pros and cons of their barrels.  You can’t beat the amount of cannon you get for the price though.

Offline Santa Dave

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2006, 10:05:47 AM »
Just to illustrate the point:
A member here had a cannon that they had been firing blanks out of for quite a while, thinking that blanks were safe. One day it turned into a bomb (no one was injured :D) and as they poured over the weckage they discovered that it was a LAWN ORNAMENT! Never designed to be fired at all! But THAT information was lost! :'( (there are photographs on this forum but I can't find 'em :-[)
 So the real message is:
IF YOU ARE SURE THAT YOUR CHILDREN OR THEIR CHILDREN(or anyone else) WON'T EVER TRY TO FIRE A PROJECTILE FROM IT. BUILD A NOISE MAKER! But if you arn't sure------------
Dave
It would be sorta like building a .38 spec with a long enough cylinder to hold .357 shells YOU know never to put in .357s but what about the next guy?
Wear Something RED on fridayTo show YOUR support for our troops! Even if YOU don't support the war!

Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2006, 12:11:49 PM »
I get the point!

After doing some research here on this board, what is the purpose of the breech plug on a golf ball mortar?  It would seem that a solid piece of metal would be stronger?

Offline GGaskill

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2006, 12:15:49 PM »
If you are looking at the contest golf ball mortars, they were built using some supplied 2" tubing and a short piece of 2" round (solid.)  The breech plug closes the tubing.  Normally, for such a small bore, you should make it from a piece of solid round.  The contest guns were made as a challenge to see what ideas and techniques forum gunmakers would come up with.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline vern

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2006, 12:37:41 PM »
thanks George.  I know it's hard splainin all the details to a newbie, but I learn quick.

Offline Rickk

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Re: New Member Needs Help
« Reply #16 on: July 23, 2006, 03:25:18 PM »
If for some reason you think that 1 inch is all you need, looks at Brookes.  Their Dictator mortar is 1 inch, and under $100. I have one on order, so I havn't fired one yet, but I have played with a couple of smaller mini's and they are a lot of fun.

For bigger, with a $$ budget to stay under, Hern probably can't be beat. Hern uses seemless liners. Many of Herns  are 2.25 inch seemless bore.

If you want even bigger, check with the sponsors for something custom.

Keep in mind that really big is really heavy, and if you start medium, you can always go bigger.