Author Topic: .223 for small deer  (Read 6703 times)

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Offline randyb

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.223 for small deer
« on: July 25, 2006, 09:06:17 AM »
I am not a big believer in using the .223 for deer, but IF one was to use this round, what bullet/manufacturer would you try in a gun with a 1:9 twist?  Thanks!
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Offline Hairtrigger

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2006, 10:18:12 AM »
I would not!

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2006, 01:26:52 PM »
I too am not a big fan of hunting deer with a 223 for the most part , that being said , if i were hunting some of the smaller southern deer that dress out at around 125 lbs or so and my shots were at 100 yards or less i would use on of the better quality bonded bullets in the 65 to 80 grain range .

Most of the deer up here in Ohio would need something larger than a 22 cal. bullet to drop cleanly , that is why i use a 12 ga. or my 41 mag handgun .

stimpy
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2006, 02:06:15 PM »
If I had to use a .223, I'd use the 60gr NP, 63gr Sierra SP or the 64gr Win PP and be real picky in shot placement, no shoulder shots, just close behind the shoulder. ;) Be sure to read the reviews with each bullet link below.

Tim

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Offline Blammer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2006, 06:31:21 PM »
55 to 64 gr bullets would be my suggestion.

I have seen first hand what a 64 gr Winchester power point will do to a deer. Two of them in the same day actually. They are quite an awesome bullet. One was shot at 50 yards the other at about 85 yards. Excellent penetration and expansion. The one shot at 85 yards the bullet penetrated the off side shoulder.

I am looking foward to trying Sierra's new 65 gr Gameking in 223 they also have a 55 gr Gameking in 223 on deer this year. I am a believer that the 223 is adequate for deer.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2006, 07:59:54 PM »
I would not!

Great post, I'm with you.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Savage .250

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 01:54:02 AM »
   I guess if you just "select" small deer you should have no problem. Course that means you have to "pass" on the bigger ones.  ;)
   It seems to me that to harvest a deer in a humane way is the object rather than see how small a caliber one can use.
   As noted above some guys use them and get good results but for me i like a little more rifle, a personal choice.
   
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline Brithunter

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 11:56:25 AM »
Hmmm the problem as I see it is defining "small Deer". Here in the UK .22 Centerfires are legal for Roe Deer only providing they meet these specs:-

Min 50 grn Bullet
Min Muzzle enregy 1100 ft lbs
Min muzzle velocity 2450 fps

    Nowhere else in the UK is this legal the legal minimum being .240" cal with min muzzle energy of 1700 ft lbs.

    Now Roe are Small deer, a big Buck may reach 60 lbs but more likely being around 50 lbs with Does being lighter still however saying that Roe are lost each year due to poor bullet placement or bullet reaction. A gamekeeper friend spent 4 hours bringing a Roe Doe to book as it was acting strangly, a couple of hours watching it before he noticed a spot on her side, she was in poor conditon it looked like as she was in the middle of a large field with no way to approach closer to get a better look. So he decided to cull her.

  When he got the the dead beast he found his bullet hole (using a .243 with 100 Grn Fedral perium ammo) about 1" away from a small .22" size hole which on examination had passed through both lungs. The exit side having a slightly larger hole and she was badly maggot infested on the entrance and exit under the skin. She was literally being eaten alive  :o :'(.

   Depsite a good hit penetrating both lungs the .22" bullet did not do enough terminal damage to drop the Doe. He for one has seen this too many times and does not advocate the use of any .22" cartridge on Deer.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 12:08:39 PM »
 Depsite a good hit penetrating both lungs the .22" bullet did not do enough terminal damage to drop the Doe. He for one has seen this too many times and does not advocate the use of any .22" cartridge on Deer.

                         ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My guess would be that that turns bullet placement into theory. A theory that becomes accurate only when all the componet's are properly selected and used. I'll bet a different shot placement would have pole ax'ed that doe. But it certainly say's something for selecting a prudent cartridge and load!
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Larry Gibson

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2006, 01:21:14 PM »
I am not a big believer in using the .223 for deer, but IF one was to use this round, what bullet/manufacturer would you try in a gun with a 1:9 twist?  Thanks!

Certainly not my first choice for deer hunting but I have killed numerous deer with a .223. It was perfectly legal in the local where I killed them. They ranged from small blacktails to a large 220+ lb mule deer (nice 4 point that is hanging on my living room wall). The shots definately have to be "picked" but then shouldn't all shots at big game?  Problem is the number of available shots to pick from is less with a cartridge such as the .223.  If one is very certain of their ability then the proper shot is right behind the fore leg one third of the up from the bottom angaling forward into the heart lung area. A solid head shot works but is always prone (regardless of cartridge) to produce a wounded deer that escapes. I used two bullets; the 55 gr Hornady SX at 3200 fps out of 1-12" twist rifles or the 64 gr Winchester out of a 1-9" twist AR or a 1-10" twist Mini 14.  Aldeer shot in the heart lung area were shot as described above. The SXs never exited and blew up in the lungs peppering the off side rib cage with bullet fragments. The 64 gr Winchesters penetrated into the offside shoulders.  None of the deer such shot "dropped". All hunched up at the shot and walked 20-50 yards, layed down and died.  I have head shot 4 deer with the 55 SX, they all dropped at the shot.  If you choose to use the .223 use it carefully.

Larry Gibson

Offline nomosendero

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2006, 06:44:13 PM »
Hmmm the problem as I see it is defining "small Deer". Here in the UK .22 Centerfires are legal for Roe Deer only providing they meet these specs:-

Min 50 grn Bullet
Min Muzzle enregy 1100 ft lbs
Min muzzle velocity 2450 fps

    Nowhere else in the UK is this legal the legal minimum being .240" cal with min muzzle energy of 1700 ft lbs.

    Now Roe are Small deer, a big Buck may reach 60 lbs but more likely being around 50 lbs with Does being lighter still however saying that Roe are lost each year due to poor bullet placement or bullet reaction. A gamekeeper friend spent 4 hours bringing a Roe Doe to book as it was acting strangly, a couple of hours watching it before he noticed a spot on her side, she was in poor conditon it looked like as she was in the middle of a large field with no way to approach closer to get a better look. So he decided to cull her.

  When he got the the dead beast he found his bullet hole (using a .243 with 100 Grn Fedral perium ammo) about 1" away from a small .22" size hole which on examination had passed through both lungs. The exit side having a slightly larger hole and she was badly maggot infested on the entrance and exit under the skin. She was literally being eaten alive  :o :'(.

   Depsite a good hit penetrating both lungs the .22" bullet did not do enough terminal damage to drop the Doe. He for one has seen this too many times and does not advocate the use of any .22" cartridge on Deer.

So what was the cartridge, Muzzle velocity & bullet used here. 22 caliber may mean a 22 hornet, bullet may mean fmj (if the bullet was not found we don't know & may be reason for small wound channel). If we don't know what was used, what possible conclusion can we draw? And what are these other wounds the Warden
refered to? The rules indicate some small round is being used by someone, 50 Gr. Min, 1,100 ft. # of energy
& muz. vel. of 2,450, well the energy is close but the other numbers are way off, more like a Hornet or something.

I just don't like conclusions being drawn based on information that doesn't apply, which appears to be the case.

If anyone thinks this means that I advocate the usuage of the 223 for Deer, they would be wrong. The guns that I use for Deer begin at 25 caliber, I know the 243 works, but I prefer bigger rounds. And yes, the 223 will RELIABLY kill Deer, even large Northern types. Does this sound contradictory, yep!  Is it, nope!
The conditions at which this is 100% lethal is much more narrow than using a bigger round, which means like bow hunting you will have to turn down opportunities that could have been enjoyed with a bigger round.

I know of about 200 Whitetails that have been harvested with the 223, 1 friend killed 114, another killed 50-60 Deer,  Me & my brothers have taken about 18 (experimental days). The man who killed 114 is a great shot & woodsman, he did not lose any, he is brutally honest. Myself & my brothers did not lose any & we used
one shot per Deer. The other guy that took 50-60, I know he lost one & he may have lost another, Its been a few years & I am not sure, so the ratio is good compared to others I am sure. But the Deer were shot under certain conditions as follows, & BTW, some of Deer were Soybean fed Black River Bottoms Bucks, 1 @
210# & a few others that general size & most were 125-150# Deer.
Here are the perimeters.
A 55 Gr. Soft Point bullet like the CoreLokt, Powerpoint Horn, etc., 53 Gr. or up Barnes TSX, 60 Gr. Nos. Part,
60 Gr. Horn. Soft Pt. the Swift or 55 TBBC, 65GK & some others, placed behind the shoulders to do a double lung shot (like a bow) & done at 75 yards or less (most woods shots) with a decent muzzle vel. will mean Deer steaks & this includes Big Bucks. A 250# Buck will not have rib bones twice as thick as a 150 # Buck, they will be thicker & wider, these bullets will go through that every time & destroy the Lungs, again if you use these bullets, load a good velocity & keep the range some. In other words, broadside shots & a minimum angle, in other words you want to penetrate both lungs without hitting the shoulder first, a no-no on a Big Boy.
If you for some reason need to shoot a 223, do it under these conditions. Most tree stand shots will allow this, but not all which goes back to using restraint.

This brings about the reasons I don't Deer hunt with a 223.
(1) Angles--- I place my stands where most shots will be broadside, but not all & the Big Bucks seem to be
more unpredictabe than the others. I want a round that I can place my bullet at the point of the shoulder facing me if I need to or slip a bullet in at the rear of the vitals & angle up to the far shoulder if the Deer is
standing at such an angle. I can do this evevy time with the rounds I use, I would have to pass on these
with a smaller round, unacceptable if the biggest Buck of the year seen was one of these!
(2) Distance---- Don't want to get into long range at all here but if I see a Deer I want at 300 yards or my personal maximum range (not going to say what that is) or even 200 yards, I want to take advantage of that
opportunity. The 223 has the flat traj. but not the bullet weight, retained velocity & energy to do this. I consider the max distance to be 100 yards to give a devasting wound channel & 75 yards and under is better.
Again, this would mean an occasional missed opportunity.
(3) Obstructions--- No, I do not believe in brush busting or thinking that I am using a round that bores through
brush reliably, what I mean is occassionally you may hit a small limb right in front of the Deer, it won't be a problem for what I use, but with a 22 cal, it could.
(4) Bloodtrail--- Seldom a problem if you shoot them under the perimeters I mentioned as they just won't go far, but if you shoot one at the edge of a Southern clearcut, it may take a while to find if the bullet doesn't exit, here I would use the TSX ofr Part. Some cleacuts I have hunted, I had to crawl to fine the Deer & pull them out the same way, a bloodtrail helps & with my guns I get one.

I mention all of this in case there is a reason that you need to use this rifle instead of a bigger, more desirable round. It can be used with total success (the only way to be) but please understand the limitations & have the discipline to turn down ALL other shots. But if you have acess to a bigger gun, why limit your opportunities? Good Deer are hard to come by & you ASKED ABOUT SMALL DEER, but do you want to turn down big ones?

BTW, for the 1-9 twist I woud try the mentioned 55 Gr up to the 65GK.

Good luck!!
 
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Offline S.S.

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2006, 05:11:26 AM »
With a controlled expansion bullet They seem to do quite well actually.
My brother hunts with one and has done very well with it.
His bullets are 70 grain soft points that he has loaded to his specs.
A friend of mine got one for his wife and she had dropped many
whitetail with it since. One she shot was at a considerable distance
across a plowed field. In the hands of a proficient shot with the right
bullet The .223 will cleanly harvest whitetail. Bare in mind though that
this is in Georgia and our deer here are on the smaller end of the scale.
I do not think I would go after the larger northern whitetail with a .223
 
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Offline dukkillr

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2006, 06:01:20 AM »
My question is always:  Why?  There seems to be a race to the bottom with regards to shooting the smallest bullet.  What reason could there be for deer hunting with a .223?  Will it kill deer?  Sure.  In the hands of an experienced shooter with a good bullet you could consistently kill deer with a .17 HMR or .22 LR.  Does that make it a good idea? 

Offline Blammer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2006, 09:49:37 AM »
race to the bottom? naaa

if that were the case the 17 rem would be the most popular talked about cartridge debated for deer hunting.

the 223 is talked about because it is currently our military's choice of ammo. What does that have to do... well here it is...

the 223 is more prolific because of the military's choice, and therefore more available for hunting sporting purposes, thus more often considered a choice for hunting deer with, hence the debate yea or nea for deer....

Offline BUSTER51

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2006, 10:51:39 AM »
THIS IS JUST ONE OLD MANS OPINION,DON'T USE ANYTHINH UNDER A .243 ON DEER !

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2006, 12:02:26 PM »
race to the bottom? naaa

if that were the case the 17 rem would be the most popular talked about cartridge debated for deer hunting.

the 223 is talked about because it is currently our military's choice of ammo. What does that have to do... well here it is...

the 223 is more prolific because of the military's choice, and therefore more available for hunting sporting purposes, thus more often considered a choice for hunting deer with, hence the debate yea or nea for deer....

That's not quite true. Most likely the 17's are being used, just not talked about. I read where a guy championing the 223 for deer claimed two of his friends were using 14cal wildcats on deer. Probally true.

The 17 Rem is not the most popular talked about cartridge debated for deer hunting because it's not legal anywhere! If it were.....................Someone always want's to shoot the biggest animal with the fastest cartridge using the smallest bullet and the greatest range. The rest of us have to live with being viewed as being one and the same with these people.
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Brithunter

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2006, 12:17:39 PM »
As the deer was fly blown and being eaten alive by the maggots we do not know what rifle/cartridge combination was used to shot the Roe Doe nor who shot it first. We do know the one which put her down  ;D. Now as to the specs I listed they are those required as a minimum by LAW in Scotland and are not recomendations just the legal minimum and nothing more. I have only related the incident in answer to the original post.

I do have a rifle which is chambered in .222 Remington and I also have some Sako ammunition designed especially for Roe Deer. And if I ever get up to Scotland hunting Roe I may ................... may just take it and see just how it performs.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2006, 12:39:25 PM »
THIS IS JUST ONE OLD MANS OPINION,DON'T USE ANYTHINH UNDER A .243 ON DEER !

Who's opinion are you in reference to? By your response prehaps not my post. If you look at it carefully
I don't like to use a 243 either, even though they will work, but if someone uses a 223, they need to understand the limitations & knowing those it will work, but one more time, why if you can use a bigger gun?
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #18 on: July 27, 2006, 01:17:40 PM »
My question is always:  Why?  There seems to be a race to the bottom with regards to shooting the smallest bullet.  What reason could there be for deer hunting with a .223?  Will it kill deer?  Sure.  In the hands of an experienced shooter with a good bullet you could consistently kill deer with a .17 HMR or .22 LR.  Does that make it a good idea? 

Why indeed!! I asked that question in my first post, why limit your opportunities. And I gave reasons why I
DON'T Deer hunt with one. But if someone wants to we you & I will not stop them. So it makes sense to me
to show how you can use one successfully within a narrow set of parameters, & it is not merely an opinion.

I guess that I have not been aware of this race to the bottom, I hunt with a different crowd I suppose. You lost me on the 17 HMR comparison which is no comparison at all. If we use the 55 Gr. 224 bullet as a baseline, the 17HMR is less than 1/3 the weight, so to compare the other direction as well or 3 times 55 gr. is
165 gr. & the velocity is 700 feet per second less so to get 700 feet more would be about 3,900 FPS, the energy of a 17 is about 250 # or about 1/5 the 223, so to get 5 times the energy would be a good 6,000ft. lb., we may not want to shoot that one. The sectional density is also far less.
So to compare the 17 HMR with the 223 would be like comparing the 223 with a round that has a 165 gr. bullet moving at 3,900FPS & with 6,000 ft. # of energy!!!! Yea, we may need to bump the bullet wt. to get that energy.    In other words the 17HMR & 223 comparison does not make any sense to me, maybe someone could explain. Oh & let's don't forget the difference in bullet const. between the 17 bullet & the specific bullets I mentioned, which pulls it even further apart.
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Offline poncaguy

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #19 on: July 27, 2006, 02:58:31 PM »
Legal for deer in Oklahoma, I know a 55 grain in a 22-250 will drop them like a rock, lung/heart shot only.

Offline randyb

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2006, 01:23:32 AM »
Thanks for the input guys.  Everyone seemds to have valid arguements which center on use enough gun and be sure of your shot placement.  I guess I should explain my reason for the quesitons. 

1.  I use a .308 for deer
2.  I do have a .223 for varmits
3.  I go hunting in Georgia with my brother in-law. 
4.  As some of you know one of his sons has liver and lung cnacer.  Due to the tubes and other medical equipment larger bore guns can not be used due to possibly tear loose some of his tubes and such.
5.  My .223 could be used.  If so it would be from a blind on a food plot within very short range.    The boy is a very good shot also.
6.  Back up would be provide in the form of a larger caliber gun (the property owner uses a .270, my brother in law a .300 win mag or 30/30)

My main question was what load would be the best option within those parameters.  Thanks again guys and I hope no one gets too worked up over this.  I'm dealing with a similar situation here in Indiana where it is legal to use a .410 on deer.  (Which I don't think is enough gun BTW)
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2006, 04:02:01 AM »
Randyb, I wish the best for your son & I will certainly include him in my prayers.

Look's like you have this covered & under those shooting conditions things should go well.

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Offline flintlock

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2006, 04:11:35 AM »
Randy...I hope everything will turn out fine for your nephew...My brother went through cancer with his son when he was 14...kid loves to deer hunt and fish...This past year he was a freshman at UNC, so he has been cancer free for 3 years now...You have my prayers.....

You might notice that I didn't reply earlier, most guys are going to do what they are going to do...And for some reason folks will give their opinion, with no experience...When I was 15 or so (back in the 70s)...My first deer rifle was a 22-250...I used it for population control on our 3 farms in eastern NC...Lets just say that I killed a bunch of deer with it...It will work, especially on our smaller bodied southern deer and Nosler Partitions were not avaliable back then for a .22 caliber....

Fast forward to last summer....My brother traded for a Remington 22-250...He has a 15 year old daughter that has hunted with him since she was 6 or so...is deadly on squirrels with a .22...I purchased 2 boxes of Federal Premium 60 grain Nosler Partions...We had her shoot the gun several times...1 1/2 inch group at 100 yards....She gets in a stand that afternoon with her dad as she had done in the past..Except now she is the hunter....A 90 pound doe steps out at 50-60 yards...She drops her with one shot through the shouder blade...20 minutes later she does the same with a doe about 100 yards away...both bullets exited, both deer dropped, exit holes were about an inch wide...I cleaned both deer, and they were just as dead as if she had used a .270...

We have to start these kids hunting sometimes....if you wait until they are 16-17 and have a drivers license..You have waited too late....Personally I have used a .243 since 1980...Its plenty for deer...
(for our southern deer within 300 yards)....

If your nephew has cancer and can handle a .223, get a box of 60 grain Partitions and go at it...Tell him to kill one for me.....Good Luck

Offline Blammer

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2006, 04:11:43 AM »
good deal!
with a blind, you can easily pick a good shot.

I would recommend the Winchester western 64 gr Power point. should bring home the venison for him.

Make sure you take lots of pics of the good times had by all!

Offline nomosendero

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2006, 07:48:30 AM »
The Nosler 60 Grain would be my first choice for your son if your gun likes it. Take a look at this
article, especially the later part of the article, good stuff.

http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/bullet_bone/Bullethitsbone.html

God Bless
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #25 on: July 29, 2006, 10:54:52 AM »

That's an excellent article Rod...and while many wouldn't ever use a 223 for deer...it does pays to do your reasearch feild testing and load developement before using this caliber.....I always get a chuckle out of those who feel the 223 isn't suitable for whitetails (under controled ranges)...Here in my area...it and the 243 are what the Missouri Conservation Dept. endorse for their shooting programs..and youth hunts...and are the single shot Handi rifle's...for ease of loading and shooting...and most of all safety...Of course it doesn't hurt that they are also usually tack drivers as well....
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline S.S.

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2006, 05:32:52 AM »
As far as I remember, Any Centerfire expanding bullet of .22 cal or larger is legal
for deer in Georgia. This to me is pretty ignorant on the part of our Game and Fish folks.
22 Hornet, 25-20 , 32-20 All Legal !
If I were so inclined to load .38 short Colt rounds into my .357 Mag lever gun
And go after Whitetail, I would be completely legal in doing so.
On the other hand, All Handguns have to have a retained energy at 100 yards of 500 foot-pounds !
As far as I have found, No factory round does this in anything smaller than a .44 mag, and most .44 mag rounds don't either ! We must ourselves be good steward of our game resourses, it is obvious that our gov't agencies do not have the sense to do it. We all should know what rounds will cleanly
take any given Game animal and at what ranges. If we all use common sense.
 
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Offline 7x57mm

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2006, 08:47:41 AM »
don't ya just love it when you ask a straight forward question about one topic and get a boatload of non-relivant answers. At the same time, this is a forum and when you ask a question, I guess you have to be prepared for anthing. You asked about bullet weight. Nosler Partition makes a dandy little 60 grain pill. I do not know for sure if it will stabilize wity your twist barrel, but it should. I saw it drop a medium-sized 4x4 mule deer. The animal was right at 115 yards away and broadside. At the shot (just behind the front legs and smack in the middle of the breadbasket) the deer took a step forward, wobbled a bit, took another step and then just settled to the ground. The bullet smacked the upper part of its heart. 223s are used in Texas cull hunting. It may not be an ideal whitetail deer caliber, but then, neither is a .460 Weatherby Magnum. Both, however, will get the job done. By the way, that 60 grain pill was loaded to about 3,150 fps with Winchester 748 powder. Tom Purdom

Offline grouper sandwich

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2006, 07:54:42 AM »
I think that under the conditions that you mentioned a 223 would be the perfect choice and Federal Premium Nosler Partitions would work very well.  I shoot Barnes 53 gr TSX's in my 22-250 for Georgia deer, but have used the FP NP 60's and have been pleased with the results.  And for visual proof that the little .22's will do the trick, here's a video from Hunting Footage.com of a youngster pounding a montser buck with a .222.  Enjoy and good luck to your Nephew!

http://www.huntingfootage.com/data/507/thumbs/kades_buck.jpg

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Re: .223 for small deer
« Reply #29 on: August 02, 2006, 04:16:09 AM »
The thickness of chest wall is nearly identical whether a 300 lb muley or a 100 white tail doe.  It is dumb to assume that a 64 grain Winchester Power Point will kill the doe but bounce off the big muley buck!

I started my eldest daughter out on my super accurate Savage .223 heavy barreled prairie dog rifle.  After two sessions, she was hitting dixie cups at 100 yards every time.  Then we switched to Winchester's excellent 64 grain Winchester Power Point and her shooting remained constant.

We set up crossed shooting sticks overlooking a Y shaped canyon.  Then we patiently waited for dusk. She shot and killed a big muley doe at a distance of approx. 125 yards or so.  The little bullet broke a rib going in, destroted both lungs, and broke a rib going out the other side. Next year, she replicated this event.  Her third year of deer hunting, I trained her to use our old Remington slide action action rifle in .243 as she can carry it herslf. She toppled another big doe from the same exact spot. All three does weighed approx. 165-180 lbs live weight.  Each animal was toppled by a single shot fired through its chest from a broadside angle.

Now she hunts mulies with my Glenfield 30-30 carbine as she simply likes it better.  This carbine is equally deadly and I won't argue whether .243 or 30-30 kills them "deader".

My best friend has toppled many antelopes at long distance with his 220 Swift and 52 grain bullets by  Barnes.  These solid copper bullets do not explode as varmint bullets do. For those who disbelieve this amazing performance, I suggest building a bullet catch box filled with soaked newspapers.  Plan to be impressed by depth of pentration and diameter of wound channel!

Nosler now builds 60 grain partitions.  These bullets are also good deer getters for the patient hunter who waits for a broadside shot through the ribs. I do not recommend the 22 cartridges for impatient deer hunters who will shoot at anything brown in coloration.
TR