Author Topic: .223 for small deer (Read 6847 times)

xhare · « **Reply #30 on:** August 13, 2006, 09:04:32 AM »

What twist will stabilize the Nosler 60 grain partition or the Winchester 64 grain power point? Do you have to have a 1:9 inch twist?

nomosendero · « **Reply #31 on:** August 13, 2006, 09:44:55 AM »

No, I have had some bolt guns that would shoot up to the 64 with decent accuracy but not the best accuracy in those rifles. Remember that Win. started selling these before the fast twist 223 became popular.
I believe that this is why Win. came out with a 64gr. instead of 65gr. or higher, I have seen some rifles with a 1-12 shoot the 64 at about an inch or so & then when we tried the 68 gr. match bullets they patterned like a shotgun or keyholed.

So in some 1-12 rifles they will shoot well but in some they won't because they are on the edge. Also, with reloads the faster they are pushed(safely) the more likely they will shoot as in any other cal. where you are at the edge as far as twist is concerned. But remember in this application we are talking about CLOSE range only, so if it is a 1" group instead of 1/2" it is not a big deal whereas with
Varmits it would be.

jerkface11 · « **Reply #32 on:** August 13, 2006, 11:58:08 AM »

My CZ 527 has a 1in12 twist and it shoots the 64 grain power points very well. And from what i understand they're a great deer bullet.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #33 on:** August 13, 2006, 11:58:54 AM »

Quote from: xhare on August 13, 2006, 09:04:32 AM

What twist will stabilize the Nosler 60 grain partition or the Winchester 64 grain power point? Do you have to have a 1:9 inch twist?

Since you asked a related question in the NEF forum, the 1:12" .223 Handi will shoot the 60gr NP and 64gr Win PP very well, as it also does the 63gr Sierra #1370, there have been several threads on them. See my earlier post on 7/25 in this thread.

Tim

si72 · « **Reply #34 on:** August 13, 2006, 03:54:58 PM »

I use 223 for fallow and goats wallaby and even hares. I use the federal classic 64gr jsp for the first two and federal eagle 50gr hp for the latter two. My barrel is 1 in 12 twist and the accuracy of the 64gr is about moa. I dont think it's a problem shooting deer in the way you described good rest etc. I have a friend who is a good hunter and a good shot he hunts for meat only and his cal of choice is 204 ruger. He only takes neck or head shots for deer. I recently took two fallow and one was shot with the 223 just behind the front shoulder full broadside shot. When we cut her up we found a big hole through shoulder both lungs and found the projectile on the inside of the other shoulder. The bullet base was intact the tip was just mangled jacket. She dropped on the spot dead as disco when I got to her.

Best of luck to you both with your adventure together.

si

nomosendero · « **Reply #35 on:** August 13, 2006, 04:42:39 PM »

si72, welcome to GBO!!

si72 · « **Reply #36 on:** August 13, 2006, 10:30:24 PM »

Thanks cob
I have visited the site a few times following links from rfc posted by quickd. Happy to be here now as a member.

si

xhare · « **Reply #37 on:** August 14, 2006, 02:56:38 AM »

Thanks quickdtoo, that is exactly the kind of information I was looking for.

Blammer · « **Reply #38 on:** September 08, 2006, 03:13:51 PM »

Disco is DEAD?

aww mannnn, somebody should have told me!

si72 · « **Reply #39 on:** September 08, 2006, 04:10:46 PM »

Sorry blammer to be the one to break that bad news to you old son but hey don't worry cause the way things are going it will be back in within the decade (or did i miss that too) so keep the a line flares and the airplane collars j.i.c

si

Ramrod · « **Reply #40 on:** October 14, 2006, 12:21:17 PM »

I have alot of experience using .22 centerfires on whitetails. I think folks are making a mistake using the heavy "premium" bullet loads in the .223. A very poor compromise between velocity and weight. Too slow, not enough expansion. The 50-55 grain soft point bullet is the sweet spot for this round. The velocity stays high enough for good bullet blowup, which is the key to instant kills with this round. Try for a behind the shoulder shot. If you have to go for angles, or a shoulder shot, the FMJ works fairly well. It does tumble inside the body. I have some bullets I recovered that are flattened and bent to almost a 90 degree angle. Obviously, any bulllet will work for a neck or head shot.

ThunderStick · « **Reply #41 on:** November 09, 2006, 12:47:51 PM »

I ordered some of the Win. 64 gr.pp, and Sierra 55 gr game king bullets. I made up some loads and took them to the range this morning. In my CZ 527 my best group with the 64 gr was just a hair over 1 inch. With the Sierra 55 gr gameking .31! Just for giggles I took several bullets out to the shed and sectioned them. The suprise, the winchester 64 has about twice as thick a jacket as the 55gr GK. I can see this bullet (64) acting just like a FMJ unless a bone is hit or the velocity is high enough to cause that thick jacket to upset. BTW the jackets on the varmit bullets where notably thinner than on the GK bullet, I also think the hardness of the lead alloy has a lot to do with the performance of the bullet at the terminal, as well as the possible jacket seperation.
I think I am gonna lean with the previous post, and go for higher velocity and good bullet placement and stir clear of the 64gr pp for now.

ccoker · « **Reply #42 on:** November 13, 2006, 10:51:21 AM »

did you see the post I put up on the Federal ballistics report
the 64g mushroomed very nicely (the biggest) on ballistic gel and same with denim over it
it gets very good reviews on midwayusa

ThunderStick · « **Reply #43 on:** November 13, 2006, 01:35:55 PM »

Did you notice the range was 10 YARDS! Not exactally hunting ranges.

I would be worried about the bullet not expanding at lower velocity or longer ranges. This bullet test is built around using the AR platform for home defence in an urban enviroment.
I would love to see this same test at 100 yards and then compair the cavitation and penetration. I bet the penetration would be great, but the temporary cavitation would be lacking. Just my speculation though.

LEO · « **Reply #44 on:** November 13, 2006, 05:21:49 PM »

I have shot several deer with the 223 rem.. I have used 2 loads the first is Winchester or Federal 55 grain soft points, the second a handload using a 45 grain hornet bullet loaded hot. The first load was used for general situations, shots were carefully chosen taking only broad side chest, neck or head shots. The cartridge did alright but if the deer ran there was very little blood trail. The second load was used only when shooting in populated areas. The purpose of the load was to insure that the bullet did not exit and only head/neck shots were taken. I would not recommend the 223 as an all around deer round but for the scenario you described, I think it just might be the ticket. Go with the 55 grain soft points and call it good. I hope all goes well.

7x57mm · « **Reply #45 on:** November 14, 2006, 01:01:00 PM »

Barnes has a wicked little 50 grain slug the company recommends for deer and antelope. I don't know if the company makes .224 caliber bullets in the TSX, but if it did, that might be something to look at as well. Tom Purdom

ccoker · « **Reply #46 on:** November 15, 2006, 12:43:08 PM »

Quote from: ThunderStick on November 13, 2006, 01:35:55 PM

Did you notice the range was 10 YARDS! Not exactally hunting ranges.

I would be worried about the bullet not expanding at lower velocity or longer ranges. This bullet test is built around using the AR platform for home defence in an urban enviroment.
I would love to see this same test at 100 yards and then compair the cavitation and penetration. I bet the penetration would be great, but the temporary cavitation would be lacking. Just my speculation though.

I would think that since they are designated as "tactical rifle urban" that expansion and NOT over penetrating would be a huge priority

edwennink · « **Reply #47 on:** November 15, 2006, 07:38:09 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on July 27, 2006, 12:17:39 PM

As the deer was fly blown and being eaten alive by the maggots we do not know what rifle/cartridge combination was used to shot the Roe Doe nor who shot it first. We do know the one which put her down . Now as to the specs I listed they are those required as a minimum by LAW in Scotland and are not recomendations just the legal minimum and nothing more.

FYI, I was once driving up a gravel riverbed in New Zealand, when a Red Deer spiker cantered across and stopped to watch me from the other side.
I shot it with a 90gr Sako bullet from my 6mm Rem. behind the shoulder at about 60yds, and it dropped it on the spot.

When I rolled it on to it's back to gut it, my friend exclaimed, "My God, that 6mm makes a mess!"

To my surprise, on the opposite side to where I had shot it, was a large blackened crater, seemingly the size of a soup plate, right on the ball-joint at the point of the shoulder!
Further disection revealed it was only a surface wound, not an exit hole from the other side, and the wound was also lightly maggot infested.

My inquiries locally revealed that an acquaintance had shot a spiker a week earlier at the same place, at point-blank range, with a hot, hand-loaded 130gr .270 bullet! It had gone down as though pole-axed, but when he walked up unarmed to recover it, it lurched to it's feet and made off into the bush in the twilight, and he was unable to find it.The .270 bullet had vaporised, with a penetration of no more than a couple of inches.

Yet, I have a bush pilot friend, who lives on the opposite side of the same National Park where the aforementioned incident took place, who has been shooting Red and Sika deer for 30yrs with an AR15 and 50gr bullets. He always employs the neck shot, and to my knowledge, has lost only one or two deer.

He is now in his late sixties, and shoots few deer anymore bar the odd one for the freezer, and has recently taken to the heavier .223" bullets to compensate for his less acute vision in twilight!

Ed

NB...said bushpilot is named Charlie Janes, and has written half a dozen terrific books on hunting and flying in New Zealand, published by Reed Publishing in NZ.

ThunderStick · « **Reply #48 on:** November 21, 2006, 01:11:50 AM »

I harvested a nice 6 pt yesterday evening with the .223 and the 55gr Sierra Game King soft point bullet. The range was about 50 yards and I used a neck shot. He dropped in his tracks! I actually pulled down on the double lung shot just behind the shoulder, but changed my mind because it was so close to darkness and I didn't want to risk a tracking situation in the dark. The bullet didn't exit and I plan to recover it when I work up the meat in a few days.
Now I will tell ya. I wouldn't be comfortable taking a shot over 200 yards with the little gun, but for up close, from a stand shots it seems to be ok.

ccoker · « **Reply #49 on:** December 11, 2006, 03:57:13 AM »

re: 223 and deer

Sat afternoon my son got his first deer! he's 9 and I have him setup with a NEF superlight 223 with the stock shortened, with a Sightron s2 2.5-7 "shotgun" scope

nailed his first deer (spike) about 90 yards out, text book perfect shot behind the shoulder, deer jumped straight up and went off through the brush.. waited about 45 mins (hard for him to deal with!) my son found the blood trail and there it was about 50 yards out dead to rights. 64g Federal tactical sp went through both rib cages with a good 1" plus hole and through the opposite shoulder
too bad the deer didn't read where a 223 wasn't "enough gun"

I asked him what he thought the instant he pulled the trigger, his response "suasage!"
the other funny thing was when I showed him the entrance wound he said "but I aimed here" and pointed to a spot a 1/2" in front of the hole. ah.. thought I was going to weep

nomosendero · « **Reply #50 on:** December 11, 2006, 03:56:41 PM »

Quote from: ccoker on December 11, 2006, 03:57:13 AM

re: 223 and deer

Sat afternoon my son got his first deer! he's 9 and I have him setup with a NEF superlight 223 with the stock shortened, with a Sightron s2 2.5-7 "shotgun" scope

nailed his first deer (spike) about 90 yards out, text book perfect shot behind the shoulder, deer jumped straight up and went off through the brush.. waited about 45 mins (hard for him to deal with!) my son found the blood trail and there it was about 50 yards out dead to rights. 64g Federal tactical sp went through both rib cages with a good 1" plus hole and through the opposite shoulder
too bad the deer didn't read where a 223 wasn't "enough gun"

I asked him what he thought the instant he pulled the trigger, his response "suasage!"
the other funny thing was when I showed him the entrance wound he said "but I aimed here" and pointed to a spot a 1/2" in front of the hole. ah.. thought I was going to weep

Hey now, your going to have to talk to that boy about being cocky like that!

Congrats to your son, there is nothing like the feeling you get when you see your kids nail their first Deer, thanks for sharing!!

ccoker · « **Reply #51 on:** December 12, 2006, 01:21:04 AM »

I don't know where he gets that cockiness from
must be from his mom's side of the family

dpastordan · « **Reply #52 on:** December 12, 2006, 08:27:52 AM »

We have the little Sika deer in Maryland on the Eastern Shore. I have thought about using the 60 gr Nosler partitions in .223 on them as they are not much bigger than a German Shepherd. When I was stationed in Germany the .223 and the .222 were popular for shooting the Roe deer there - again a deer about the size of a German shepherd. When I was stationed at Fort Bragg the deer on the installation were very small. Most dressed about 70-90 lbs. My druthers for whitetail has been a minimum of .243 with 100 gra (which has served me well) but I can see where the .223 on a broadside shot with a premium bullet will work. I noticed in the regs for hunting in Wyoming they make the minimum caliber for hunting deer and elk as .23 caliber which stops the use of this caliber there. And then there are the Indians and Eskimos who hunt everything with a .22 Hornet [works for them but .... I question that practice].

backstrap · « **Reply #53 on:** December 15, 2006, 12:43:37 PM »

3 Years ago my step son used my h&r 223 on his deer a buck and doe here in Okla u have to use a bullet wieght of 55gr or more i had the rifle sighted in for 55gr HP wolf ammo the buck was 40 yards broadside the deer ran 50 yards and fell over dead the does was 50 yards broadseide she ran 20 yards fell over dead this year i shot a small doe at 60 yards she ran about 100 yards the reason i think this 1 ran so fare because she seen me i wouldnt be scared to shot a deer with this set up but i wouldnt shoot past 100yds if i did this i would go to a bigger gun

Capone · « **Reply #54 on:** January 04, 2007, 04:00:24 PM »

Quote from: ThunderStick on November 21, 2006, 01:11:50 AM

I harvested a nice 6 pt yesterday evening with the .223 and the 55gr Sierra Game King soft point bullet. The range was about 50 yards and I used a neck shot. He dropped in his tracks! I actually pulled down on the double lung shot just behind the shoulder, but changed my mind because it was so close to darkness and I didn't want to risk a tracking situation in the dark. The bullet didn't exit and I plan to recover it when I work up the meat in a few days.
Now I will tell ya. I wouldn't be comfortable taking a shot over 200 yards with the little gun, but for up close, from a stand shots it seems to be ok.

I did the same thing w/ my 270 this year at 30yds the 130gr core lok was just under the skin on the other side, I have the bullet somewhere Ill have to find it. I have a friend that use a 223 amost all the time using hand loads of some sort 55gr I just dont remember which ones but every deer he took with it dropped in its tracks reguardless of where he hit in the vitals.

emsemt911 · « **Reply #55 on:** January 21, 2007, 11:51:47 AM »

My family uses the .223 all the time w/ great sucess. Just get proper ammo and shot placement. Look at the site below for some discussion and articles

http://www.predatormastersforums.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=0&Board=22&Number=52307979&fpart=&PHPSESSID=

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/ammunition/centerfire_22_biggame
http://www.gunsandhunting.com/articles/bullet_bone/Bullethitsbone.html

rugerfan01 · « **Reply #56 on:** January 22, 2007, 02:12:25 AM »

Quote from: 7x57mm on November 14, 2006, 01:01:00 PM

Barnes has a wicked little 50 grain slug the company recommends for deer and antelope. I don't know if the company makes .224 caliber bullets in the TSX, but if it did, that might be something to look at as well. Tom Purdom

They build a 53 grain TSX, I have a box right now that Im going to start developing a load for my 223.
Hope it shoots them well.

By the way I agree with everyone about the 223 not being the perfect round, although with someone that will take only perfect shots it will get the job done. I have recoverd everyone that i have shot with mine no more that 50 yards from the shot.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #57 on:** January 22, 2007, 10:24:54 AM »

I'm not a fan of anything under .25 for deer hunting, but that's me. For a .223, use any premium bullet like the Partition, Trophy-Bonded, Barnes X, etc. Swift is supposed to be coming out with a 75 grain Scirocco that should work great in a fast twist barrel. Keep it within 200 yds, better at 150 or less. Aim for the vitals, broad-side. Don't try to get fancy. Deer aren't armor plated, and the military has been killing 150-400 pound two-legged "critters" for years and years with the .223. Do you think that a soldier wouldn't shoot someone who's 300lbs with his M-16?? And when they have armor on? I don't think so. Is the .223 ideal? No, but thousands of animals are killed very dead every year with cartridges that aren't ideal.

BigLost · « **Reply #58 on:** March 26, 2007, 07:31:19 AM »

tho not a proponent of .223 for deer by everyone for all deer,,after seeing what it and the .17 Rem. will do to big tough red 'roo's and heavy thick furred northern wolves,,,there is just too much imperical evidence from the field to say the .223 WITH PROPER BULLETS will not get the job done IF you do your part.Confidence and riflecraft.

Spanky · « **Reply #59 on:** March 26, 2007, 02:29:35 PM »

I think too many people are focused on raw firepower instead of accuracy these days!! No matter if it's a 70 lb. doe or a 250 lb. Saskatewan buck, if you put one in the boiler room, it's lights out time!! The most powerful magnum out there does no good if you shoot a deer in the leg with it!! Deer are far from bulletproof!! Hit 'em good and watch 'em drop!! Even with a little .223

Spanky