Israel

[jk3006]

Yes, they do acknowledge God, but they don't acknowledge Christ, which is their way to salvation.  They rejected Him.  They still reject Him.  They are as ungodly as anyone else.  In many ways they are as far away from God as other religions are.  Without repentance there can be no forgiveness of sins and there can be no blessing from God in giving them back their land.   

[woodchukhntr]

You have some good points, jk!  Perhaps my term "political Israel" is not quite right, I mean the state of Israel.  Among other reasons, Israel must exist for the last temple to be built and used during the first half of the Tribulation, check out Revelation.  The state of Israel and most of it's people are, as you show, and have been for most of it's history, disobedient to God's will for His people.  God has used Gentile nations; Assyria, Babylon, Rome, to punish Israel, but He has never broken His covenant promise to them.  The covenant promise to Abraham was single-sided, that is from God to Abraham where God promises to do something for Abraham.  It was not: if you do this, then I will do this.

[jk3006]

God has used Gentile nations; Assyria, Babylon, Rome, to punish Israel, but He has never broken His covenant promise to them.  The covenant promise to Abraham was single-sided, that is from God to Abraham where God promises to do something for Abraham.  It was not: if you do this, then I will do this.

I agree that it was one-sided.  My take on it is this.  The way that God formed that covenant with Abraham was to ensure that it would come to past.  However, I'm not aware of any time when God blessed Israel when they were exceedingly disobedient to Him.  Deuteronomy outlines the conditions for their occupation of the land.  As far as I am aware, those conditions haven't changed.  So, my point is not necessarily to argue whether or not they will get the land but that God will do it in His own time and in His own way that is consistent according to His Word.  I don't believe God wants us to support an ungodly nation just because they are Jews.  If they are in animosity with God then they are in animosity with Christians.  My conscience won't allow me to jump on the Israel band-wagon unless they as a whole repent of their sins and turn towards Christ.  I can't ever see that happening, but God's ways are higher than mine.   

[jk3006]

Wow, that's a darn good read!

I've heard of most of that info and due tend to align myself with the idea that there won't be a physical land for the physical Jewish people, but it's hard to convincingly argue from that view point.  I do agree that the Scriptures absolutely make it clear that the real children of Abraham are those of faith in Christ.  But, I have friends that I argue this with that also claim there to be a second covenant. 

As for the pre-tribulation 7-year theory,  I have always believed that was a misinterpretation of Scripture, but I admit I'm not knowledgable enough in the Scriptures to convincingly refute that.   The Kabalah, the Talmud, etc. are satanic, to say the least.  I think Christians forget who the god of this world is and how much power he has to manipulate and deceive people. 

To my understanding the Zionistic ideas creeping into the Christian Church were mainly a result of Schofield.  However, a close look at Schofield will show that he was most likely a very corrupt person with an agenda who was backed by VERY powerful and terribly corrupt people with an even greater agenda.   

[jerkface11]

 TM7 is there a single conspiracy theory you don't jump into with both feet?

[longwinters]

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It has everything to do with bigotry. Bigotry can't be reasoned with, so further discussion between us would be pointless. Though I am Catholic, a number of my first cousins are Jews and bigotry such as you've expressed makes me very sad to think that they must face such attitudes every single day. So, instead of allowing this to become a pissing match between thee and me, I'm backing out as a courtesy to Graybeard and the other fine moderators on this site. Any discussion between us on this subject isn't going to go anywhere good, so I'm trying to be courteous to anyone, such as RaySendero, who would like to discuss the subject on your terms. No big deal, just not interested in a fight, which is where I see this going.

+1

Long

[woodchukhntr]

It is going to be interesting when we get to the place where we can see the whole thing.  1 Cor 1:25 "Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."  Try as we may, we cannot get into God's mind to see the whole picture as He does.  Meanwhile, we will continue to play our part in His plan and pat ourselves on the back because we are so smart.

[jerkface11]

 So by not believing every harebrained conspiracy theory on the net I'm just showing that I'm an ignorant member of the herd?

[jamesrus]

Hey all

     There are two different Jewish peoples as i see it.

     Jews by birth, or in heritage.

     Jews by religion.

     The Jews are the chosen people.
 
     Gods chosen people will be the first brought into Heaven at the onset of Armegeddon.

     There are Jewish people by heritage who are practicing Christians all over the world today. I believe they are the chosen people. I believe they are the ones who will be brought to Heaven first.

     Jamesrus

[Cabin4]

So by not believing every harebrained conspiracy theory on the net I'm just showing that I'm an ignorant member of the herd?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing mind-set of most conspiracy mongers. The majority of them believe that everything tragic and or large scale that happens in the world today, comes from some secret underground bunker run by the "world order".

[Cabin4]

So by not believing every harebrained conspiracy theory on the net I'm just showing that I'm an ignorant member of the herd?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing mind-set of most conspiracy mongers. The majority of them believe that everything tragic and or large scale that happens in the world today, comes from some secret underground bunker run by the "world order".

.
Well ummm,,, that's what the government said about the 'official' 911 Conspiracy Theory that we are all suppose to accept without question or proper investigation, and also about the elusive Sad'dam WMD.  Except the Taliban said if you want to find who is responsible for 911 look to countries that train pilots to fly large aircraft,,,it would be those country(s) fault because Afghanis don't train anybody to fly anything.

.....TM7

Well ummm..... when the conspiracy mongers enlist the Taliban to support their position, you have to ask yourself a question ... what the heck goes through their mind? The Taliban was one of the worlds most oppressive regime's where the  concept of Free Speech or the Second Amendment as examples, would NEVER be tolerated. With the Taliban, you did "Accept" whatever they said, or you were brought to the town square and beheaded..... And now we are suppose to take what the Taliban tells us about 9-11 as the gospel...

Okay... I think I understand this one now

Unbelievable and ridiculous to the point were I can't stop laughing.

[Cabin4]

So by not believing every harebrained conspiracy theory on the net I'm just showing that I'm an ignorant member of the herd?

Unfortunately, that seems to be the prevailing mind-set of most conspiracy mongers. The majority of them believe that everything tragic and or large scale that happens in the world today, comes from some secret underground bunker run by the "world order".

.
Well ummm,,, that's what the government said about the 'official' 911 Conspiracy Theory that we are all suppose to accept without question or proper investigation, and also about the elusive Sad'dam WMD.  Except the Taliban said if you want to find who is responsible for 911 look to countries that train pilots to fly large aircraft,,,it would be those country(s) fault because Afghanis don't train anybody to fly anything.

.....TM7

Well ummm..... when the conspiracy mongers enlist the Taliban to support their position, you have to ask yourself a question ... what the heck goes through their mind? The Taliban was one of the worlds most oppressive regime's where the  concept of Free Speech or the Second Amendment as examples, would NEVER be tolerated. With the Taliban, you did "Accept" whatever they said, or you were brought to the town square and beheaded..... And now we are suppose to take what the Taliban tells us about 9-11 as the gospel...

Okay... I think I understand this one now

Unbelievable and ridiculous to the point were I can't stop laughing.

.
   What the heck are you talking about? Bubble breaking a bit? Nobody is enlisting the The Taliban (which means student btw) to support anything except in your mind. It was merely their response on the whole matter and common sense at that. The Bush administration were talking and dealing with the Taliban right up to 911...principally about the the transasian pipeline. Bush even had a few of them to his ranch for beer and bar-b-cue. But when the deal was going forward with an Argentinian company,,,watch out!! 
   Just because certain racist and ethnic prejudices prevent you from ever lending an ear to what anybody except your beloved president says, doesn't mean some common sense can't be found elsewhere.  All they said was don't pick on us...we didn't and couldn't train pilots to fly kamikazi airliners, and so if you want to solve your 911 conspiracy story look to countries who could/did train people to fly airliners...your answers may be found there. And ask Bean Laden's brother who had frequent meetings with the Bush brothers and was whisked out of the country on 9-12.
.
BTW...this thread is about Israeli matters, chosen people, milleniumists, dispensationist, rapturist, Jesus' path, Bible re-writing and interpretation, semitism, palestinian apartheid, etc. If you want to discuss various 911 conspiracy-reality theories pick one of the existing threads, or make a new one. Thanx.

...TM7

Your the one who brought up the Taliban, not me. Your the one who deviated from the subject thread, not me. And somehow this makes me racist....... okay.... Did you forget to take your meds today or something? Your having a problem with focusing.

[Cabin4]

You're the one that interpreted what the Taliban said as reported by myself, from a rather xenophobic perspective. Probably about the only logical statement to come from them in many a year. You immediately jumped to insinuations in an attempt to be derisive.  My report on theTaliban statement was a challenge to your belief in the official 'conspiracy theory' ( an accounting never proved) injecting an element of logic into the equation. Thus, you had to fall back on derision.

As moderator of this forum,,,we can a) start a new 911-taliban thread, b) continue to discuss Israeli religio-politico matters here, c) reopen an existing 911 thread.  Either is fine with me as I'm interested in how you view the world operates.

...TM7

I'm open to sharing my view of how the world operates. In addition, I'm open to taking criticism and giving it. I think that method best helps to highlight the differences. If another thread will help support this approach,  lets set on up if your in agreement.