Author Topic: Can a good Muslim be a good American?  (Read 3177 times)

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Offline WmRoy

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #30 on: August 03, 2006, 12:28:25 PM »
I thought that article just came out 2 August..? 

True.......... but did you really think you where the only one surfing the web?  ;)

Offline powderman

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2006, 03:45:22 PM »
TM7. The 1st thing mohamed did after forming his army was to start the slaughter of Christians. Entire communities were slaughtered. He delighted in torturing and beheading his conquered males in front of their wives and children, the pretty women were kept for a time for his personal pleasure, many were raped the same day they watched their husbands murdered. The rest, children too, were slaughtered, in the name of allah of course. He attempted to kill all Christians, and anyone else that refused to abide by his rules. Mohamed was just a tool of satan. I feel sorry for these people in a way, they've led their whole lives based on the devils lies, and they don't even know it. BTW, last night the news said that the Godless ones fired 230 rockets into Israel. Thats almost 1200 in the past 7 days, haven't seen the news yet tonight, I'm sure the total has risen drasticly today. The Godless ones evidently used the 2 day bombing ceasefire of Israel to move and replenish their rockets and other weapons. Yesterday morning I heard that Egypt told Israel to go on and finish the job, a huge blow to hezbollah I'm sure. POWDERMAN.  :( :( :( :( :( :(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
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Offline dave375hh

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2006, 03:26:27 AM »
I learned everything I need to know about Islam on 9/11/01! I do believe it really is them or us. I hope us wakes up in time to fight.
Don't bother telling me about Israel or the Palistinians, Iran or Syria, The root of this evil religion is Saudi Arabia. They are the ones keeping the pot boiling. We hurt our own cause by not demanding their co-operation in stopping terrorism at it's source Saudii Arabia! We don't hold their feet to the fire because we buy their oil, and they buy our military hardwear. All of our Pols suck up to them no matter what side of the aisle they're on.

Islam is the only religion I know of that states that anyone who can't be converted should be killed. That's their statment in the hard bound toilet paper called the Koran, not mine. They also breed evil in their schools teaching lies about Israel and the Great Satan the USA. They must be stopped before it's too late. If stopped means genocide OH! well it sucks to be Muslam!
Dave375HH

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2006, 12:44:21 PM »
....., but I always said you got to be a good Jew before you can be a good Christian .....
................TM7

 ??? TM, Are you serious or just being sarcastic?

TM,
You going to answer the question or do we get to assume you’re that ignorant?
    Ray

Offline WmRoy

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #34 on: August 04, 2006, 01:31:14 PM »
Some scholars believe we have more in common with Islam than Judaism...but I don't know.

I'd like to know your source for this claim?

Offline lakota

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #35 on: August 04, 2006, 03:30:07 PM »
I  don't believe any lasting peace will be possible as long as there is one practicing muslim.
 I also feel that the U.S. news media is on their side. I am constantly seeing images of Palestinians maimed in Isralei air strikes, but I have yet to see the results of Katuysha rocket attacks on Israel. Don't tell me that no Israelis have been injured.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #36 on: August 04, 2006, 07:51:00 PM »
I knew my response would be a little long here & I have put it off since this thread started as I have had a very busy week.

College religion courses, no bias there! ::) Let's also include what the newspapers think of this matter also & don't forget to ask Hillary.

You say that the Jews were first persecuted by Christians, but I thought the Jews persecuted  Jesus & then Paul being a Jew first persecuted Christians before any record of a Jew being persecuted by Christians. Of course you may have meant that Christians persecuted Jews before the Muslims did, doesn't matter as most of what you have been saying is nonsense anyway.

The bottom line is that you want some kind of parity in behavior established between Muslims & Christians & that premise is totally false.

Each item you mentioned to compare the Christians with Muslims is off base. To compare the treatment of Women was my personal favorite. Jesus brought about more liberation than ever to
Women which was carried out through the Christian age. For example, it was the Jewish tradition(and no doubt for the sons of Ishmael as well) to stone Women caught in adultery, but what about Men? So when the Jews asked Jesus about the situation he said, "he who is without sin cast the first stone". Well it takes two to Tango, doesn't it? So then after Jesus asks, "where are your accusers" , he tells her to go & sin no more. Not to keep your head down & be like a dog, but go in peace. The same with the Woman at the well, Jesus knew what her life was, but he did not look at her as sub human, he basically told her to get it straightened out. Paul told us we are told to love
our Wives as Christ loved the Church and gave himself for it, so we are to give ourselves for our Wives. He taught also that Wives are to be in submission but that does not mean that we are to dominate or rule with an iron fist. Same goes concerning the silence in the Church passage, which is in reference to usurping authority, which has to do with the fact that Christ's sacrifice & then the Church was a result of sin, first committed by Woman, it is explained for those who want to study.
This does not have to do with Women being mistreated in the Church, no more than Christ would mistreat the Church just because he is the head of it. And in the same thought the husband is the head of the family & of course the Wife has input & at times if the Wife is right about something then the Husband can agree & say, you are right & let's do it that way, but he still made the final choice. I don't know of any grounded Christians who have a problem with this, but I do know of
Christian critics that don't understand it. Well, too bad, but I don't know of anyone that is getting shot or blown up because of it. Christians do believe in equal work for equal pay & in general opportunity for Women.
Contrast with Muslims who don't believe that their Women should have edu., professional skills, really anything in the way of rights & to be treated like Cattle. This is too silly to discuss.
What religion is as liberating? Muslims, Ha. Hindu, Ha. Various Oriental
religions, Ha. And in what country founded in religious principles that are not Christian do the citizens enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy & at the same time you don't have to participate in that religion.
Please, give me a major break!!!!

TM7, this is just one item you discussed(Treatment of Women)

It would be easy to discuss each one, the slavery issue would be the toughest as the New Testament does not deal with it alot, but yes I have studied that too & it is not as tough as it appears. BTW, you forgot to say that Paul insisted that Philemon treats this man as he returns as a brother or as he would treat Paul. Anyway, more about slavery if you ever want to actually study together & for the sincere reason of seeing the whole story as it relates to Christians.

Yes, I like to do Bible studies with those who may be interested in becoming Christians but who are not sure, but I do not have interest in arguing with those who are looking for problems that they want to create by not looking at the whole scriptures. If you or anyone fall into that first group, that would be great, just e-mail me or PM first.

TM7, all of the other points you have made would not be that tough for me, but again I do Bible Studies for those who want Bible studies, not out of context Bible arguments so that a person can
justify non-Christians groups/ideas, besides this is "Round the Pot Bellied Stove" not Bible time.

TM&, this idea that the Muslims are no more violent than the Christians & other groups is a joke, I feel your presentation is actually an abomination!! I will post in this forum when I desire, & I see no need to put you on ignore as I have nothing against you, but there is no need to respond to me on this thread as I feel this thread is a joke & I have watched you suck-up to the Muslims in other places
and indicate these violent acts by Muslims are our fault.

I am removing myself from this thread & good evening.
 
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #37 on: August 04, 2006, 11:46:18 PM »
To present any real appreciation for this present arguement one must be a believer.
Only a believer will identify with the final conclusions.
Peace is not an option-or- it is just not going to happen.
Christianity is for salvation of the soul.
Islam is for the glory of satan.
I do not think a Christian would/could defend killing as a means to perpetuate Christianity.
I do not think Christian ethics prevents one from defending onesownself.
If we would maintain a purely worldly view of killing as a means to perpetuate truth then we would deny the death and resurection of Christ.
Death demands a final judgement-by any means.
Christ came to save not to kill.
To bring Christianity into this frey and declare this thinking to be Christian doctrine is way beyond my understanding of Christian ethics.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline powderman

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #38 on: August 05, 2006, 03:25:01 AM »
I  don't believe any lasting peace will be possible as long as there is one practicing muslim.
 I also feel that the U.S. news media is on their side. I am constantly seeing images of Palestinians maimed in Isralei air strikes, but I have yet to see the results of Katuysha rocket attacks on Israel. Don't tell me that no Israelis have been injured.
Agreed Sir. The media is very biased. The other night niteline showed the damage done by Israeli bombs and whined about the poor INNOCENT civilians. They were supporters of the Godless ones, hezbolah, no innocents there. No mention of damage frome the 230 rockets Israel was hit with that day. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline RaySendero

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #39 on: August 05, 2006, 10:40:43 AM »
Go Israel - Wipe'em out!   ;D
    Ray

Offline nabob

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #40 on: August 05, 2006, 12:49:10 PM »
I don't think that it is going to do any good to suggest that people who don't believe one way or the other are not good Christians. The Bible has plenty of contradictory statements on these sorts of issues. For example, Psalm 18:37-39 talks about chasing one's enemies and conquering them. There are plenty of other examples of seeking both military and judicial justice on evil-doers. Jesus used a whip to drive money-changers from the Temple. On the other hand, there are plenty of examples of meeting evil with nonviolence, such as turning the other cheek and loving one's enemies.

I think pulling both ideals out of context might be a flawed interpretation of the message. Peace and justice are two sides of the same coin and favoring one to the detriment of the other misses the mark, in my view.

One danger I see is that a righteous outrage towards those that seek to terrorize us into submission can easily become a self-righteous outrage, where any  measure can be rationalized and justified. None of us are righteous in God's view, I don't think. No one's heart is pure, so we should be careful not to allow ourselves to become that which we fight against. Another danger is that seeking peace for its own sake, without justice, simply creates the conditions for more violence.   

I believe any government has the duty to protect its citizens. Our government is not instituted by Jesus Himself - it is instituted by us, collectively. Jesus made the point that His Kingdom was not of this world, so fighting the evil of terrorism with weapons of the Spirit doesn't seem to me to be the right way to go. Defense of the innocent is a duty, I think, that is certainly within the message of God. This defense, in order to be called a defense, must have at least the potential of protecting innocents or else is it no defense at all. So I see no difficulty in meeting the violence of the Islamic radicals with physical force.

The issue, though, is HOW you go about this. Do we do it in anger? That leads to over-reaction. Do we do it believing ourselves to be morally pure? That can lead to rationalizing horror. I think we need to do it in the spirit of Christ. When the money-changers had been driven from the Temple, He did not follow and demand their deaths. The problem had been solved and anything beyond that would have been unjustified. "Justified" and "justice" share the same root - "iustus", which should give us all pause. An action cannot be justified unless it is also just, which means:

1. Honorable and fair in one's dealings and actions: a just ruler.
2. Consistent with what is morally right; righteous: a just cause.
3. Properly due or merited: just deserts. [sic]
4. Law Valid within the law; lawful: just claims.
5. Suitable or proper in nature; fitting: a just touch of solemnity.
6. Based on fact or sound reason; well-founded: a just appraisal.

We need to keep justice in mind as we search for peace. We need to realize that our impurity of heart might cause us to mistake vengeance for justice and thereby lead us into actions that deny the peace we seek. I think if we keep in mind our own failings and question ourselves and humbly ask for God's guidance in doing the right thing, we won't go too far wrong.

But that's just my take on things.

Offline rifleman61

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #41 on: August 05, 2006, 02:15:19 PM »
With due respect to the condition existing
I accept my discipline
I will point out respectfully that every time I key in to a good majority of the bulletin boards all that I encounter are "personal" attacks on the Commander in Chief, officers of state, and in general attacks on any efforts made by our government, particularly in this war on terrorism.
So, as long as it is "patriotic" to attack and criticize the Commander in Chief, his Secretary of State and the war efforts of not only my family but the armed forces in general then it is by the same logic proper to attack the "attackers". No matter the subject it is generally seems to be an occasion for an attack on the President in some ways, shapes or forms.    There could be a "thread" that says "...George Bush walks on water..." and a party who ios ubiquitous qould almost instantaneously key in that's because "...he can't swim...".
I hit hard when I debate and I make no apologies for it.
Hit the wrong key and I hit back
Keep hitting the wrong key and I keep hitting back.
I will salute smartly and respond by saying,"...aye aye Sir..." and carry on.
But bnefore I do, I want to ask a question here.
I would really like to engage the debate, but honestly if you were sitting in my position how would you take the attacks on just about everything that "You" have lived by all of your life, and see that what you believe is made a mock of.
Please tell me here, how on earth do I not take that personally and how do I not make a personal reply?
I am told that I am "... a sick puppy..." I need to go see a doctor because I "...need help..."?, after reading some of the absolutely outlandish tripe posted for an intellectual argument?  Maybe there is someone on the bulletin board who is in need of help, but it is certainly not me.
Just what should be my reply here?


Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

Offline Sasquatch56

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #42 on: August 05, 2006, 05:07:10 PM »
Seems to me that y'all are spending an awful lot of energy trying to make your own personal view the last crushing argument.

Pardon me if I'm not impressed.

I've been following this Hamas/Hezbola/Israel brawl since it started. You folks can throw in all the historical quotes and citations you want, but the bottom line in the matter is that for whatever their reasons, these folks attacked Israel and Israel responds when attacked.

I hate to see all the killing goin' on, but if you try to harm the Israeli's they'll kill ya. It doesn't take a degree in political science to understand that. They made that real clear a long time ago.

I know a thing or two about war. Nobody, other than the seriously warped, likes the idea of killing. The Israelis are doing what they have to do to survive. If that's part of God's plan that's God's business not any of yours.

The septic tank government of Lebanon is responsible for the suffering of the people of Lebanon. You can make all the excuses you want to, but if you're going to be the government, you have to control what goes on within your borders. You have to have laws and respect them (something that seems to have been of little importance on this side of the puddle of late), and the means to enforce standards of acceptible behavior. The Lebanese government is derelict and their people are suffering on account of it. Everyobdy else needs to stay out of it.

Unfortunately, the U.N. is supposed to be getting involved in this and that bodes well for neither the Israelis nor the Lebanese (or the Palestinians at the other end). The U.N.'s record supports that assertion. God/Allah help the peoples of Israel and Lebanon, the U.N. will be the death of them all. I'm not much on "end of days" prophecies and such, but the U. N. is a serious problem. They did a bang up job of holding the Bosnian Muslims to ground so the Serbs could slaughter them and a wonderful job of keeping the peace in Rwanda (it gets real peaceful when all the people die and quit screaming) and another fabulous showing in Mogadishu. Luckily for them they are the power or someone might hold them to account for their officials robbing the Iraqis.

Yeah, I see the U.N. as a bigger threat than Islamic fundamentalists.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? Why is it necessary to ask that? I too have Muslim friends. Maybe they aren't good Muslims according to some mullah in Iraq. I don't care. They go to Mosque and pray and the rest of the time, they're just trying to keep the kids fed and the bills paid.

The point to that is that the need to evaluate folks seems to be a seriously high priority to a lot of people. All I care about is whether the guys is a good American. The rest of it is between him and his god. I guarantee his right to pray in Mosque and he guarantees mine to attend Mass.

I will tell all of you this one thing: We can and will lose this war if we allow ourselves to turn on one another.

Offline WmRoy

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2006, 05:15:23 PM »
Some scholars believe we have more in common with Islam than Judaism...but I don't know.

I'd like to know your source for this claim?

You can surf the web on your own and do a comparitive religion search. But remember Mohaammed is just the last prophet responsible for the Qu'ran. Islam existed long before, and there was other prophets. Also remember that Jews were originally persecuted by Christians, which explains why they occupied many of the old arab cities in large numbers.   When I was a student many years ago, the comparisons and similarties of the three religions was commonly presented in college religion courses. Here's a few links:
.
http://christianityandislam.info/pages/progeny.htm
.
http://www.discoverislam.net/BookShelf/Islam&Christ/Islam&Christ1.asp
.
http://www.christianity-islam.com/
.
http://catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0009.html


.....................................................................................................................................................
Lakota....there won't be lasting peace until new Israel is allowed to exist, AND the Palestinian question solved. The 48 Partition agreement must be revisited, otherwise war and terror is certain. Currently, Lebonese civilian casualties outnumber Israeli civilian casualties 30:1.  Hezbollah has actually done quite well getting military targets. Seems to me the rocket attackets are relatively ineffective, but are great media stories.

........................TM7


I see nothing here that I have not seen before and nothing that convinces me that Islam is closer to Christianity than Judism.  Islam is a perversion (and as a perversion it is the polar opposite) of both Christianity and Judism and is in my opinion a Religion of Satan.  If that makes me intolerant in your book.......... so be it.......... I believe it is just being honest and realistic!

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2006, 01:05:32 AM »
Nabob-
Not to pick or harp on the thought, but maybe a little different slant on it.
The people have a right to defend theirownselves. We use government, local/state/federal, to apply this defense, but it is still us doing the defending of ourownselves--or-- if applied correctly, the government is us--we own it.
Islam would believe in God (allah, if you must) but the devils believe in God, and tremble. They seek no redemption or have no means of redemption other than rules.
Israel (a true Israelite) seeks the Messiah and would believe that in him will salvation be possible. they have long since not had sacrifices.
The Christian will confess Christ Jesus to be the Messiah (God with us) and looks at this world as temporary, looking forward to a greater peace than can be found in it, and the only means is faith in the one who promised to save.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline nabob

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #45 on: August 06, 2006, 01:40:14 AM »
No argument from me on any of your last post, William.

My only concern in writing is that I've heard from some in my parish that the only valid Christian response to the violence of Islamic terrorism is to accept it and turn the other cheek. I don't think that is "the only valid Christian response" and was trying to point out that a different response, meeting the threat of violence with physical resistance, is also valid.

The problem, as I see it, is when we go overboard and start saying things like "nuke them all" and "kill all Muslims". At that point, I think we've abandoned the search for peace through justice and moved into vengeance and in doing so, lose God.

In your opinion, does the desire for the greater peace to be found with God put a duty on us to not respond to threats of death in this world? I'm not saying that to debate or anything. I'm sincerely interested because I've heard that from several people and was wondering about your take on the idea of  self-defense vs. martyrdom. It is a topic that has engaged the Church from its very beginnings, that's for certain.

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #46 on: August 06, 2006, 02:26:57 AM »
Nabob, I tried to respond yesterday to your post but alas, something between here and there refused to work.

I can get behind what you are saying.  There is a reasonable violent response to violent aggression, but at the same time you have to moderate that response with intelligent thought, not just turn the spigot of missiles on full blast and break the knob off.

Moderates are what is needed here, intelligent and able to see both sides of the equation. 

Then again, it's hard to reason with someone who is hell bent on your destruction.  This applies to boths sides of the conflict.

I don't see TM7 as siding with Hizbollah, he is simply providing an alternative viewpoint, playing the devil's advocate if you will.  It's kinda refreshing to see something other than the "Kill all Muslims" posts.  I think the Agnostic typing this post sometimes has more Christian sentiment than some of the "peace loving" Christians that are ready to nuke the opposition.

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...

Offline lakota

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #47 on: August 06, 2006, 03:11:55 AM »
My problem with the entire muslim world is the fact that the so-called "good muslims" never go on record as condemning what these whack-job zealot islamofacists are doing. Their silence on the matter is just as bad as open support in my book.

I feel that it is a fundamental human right for one to worship whatever god and however, or not t worship at all, and these blood thirsty zealots would deny that right, and for that they should be destroyed, as should any zealot of any religion who would deny someone thier freedom of religion.

It may not be P.C. but that is the way I feel.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline powderman

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #48 on: August 06, 2006, 04:13:36 AM »
We are not dealing with rational human beings here. We are dealing with a Godless subculture of people who have been taught  hate and death for thousands of years. They raise their children to hate all non muslims and that they will be rewarded if they blow themselves up and murder men, women, children, don't matter who or where they are, as long as they aren't muslim, Jews and Christians top the list. They remind me of mad dogs. You can't tame a mad dog. Israel knows what must be done, I pray they will quit listening to the pc crowd and destroy these mad dogs, once and for all. The lebanese govt is afraid of hezbollah more than they are of Israel. The lebanese army is now fighting Israel too. It's a matter of time before Israel hits damascus for the involvement of syria, then of course iran will get physicly involved. There will be thousands of the Godless ones meet their maker, but they aint gonna like it. Imagine abdul telling his son little ahab, put on this pretty coat, go over to that busload of Jewish school children, pull this string, and kill them all. For this, God will reward you with 72 virgins and take you to paradise. Imagine their horror when they realize that they'd been lied to all their life and they open their eyes in hell. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline rockbilly

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #49 on: August 06, 2006, 07:12:09 AM »
What prompted this post to begin with was a statement from another friend that history repeats itself.  Religion has been the major cause for most wars throughout history.  Previously it was not as frighten as today, when wars were fought with "sticks and stones"  the world as a whole was safe, we can no longer say that.  With the number of nuke weapons in the hands of muslins today we do have something to fear.  As evidenced on 9-11, we are at the mercy of every muslin in America, we never know when one will strap on a low grade nuke bomb and hit another city.  We are not truly safe anyplace, at a football game, concert, or even church you are subject to a terrorist attack.  As I see it, this threat will continue as long as there is a living, breathing muslin left.

Within the past few weeks the muslin opinion of christians and Americans has declined.  It is kinda like setting on a powder keg, when will she blow?

Offline WmRoy

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #50 on: August 06, 2006, 09:06:42 AM »
No argument from me on any of your last post, William.

My only concern in writing is that I've heard from some in my parish that the only valid Christian response to the violence of Islamic terrorism is to accept it and turn the other cheek. I don't think that is "the only valid Christian response" and was trying to point out that a different response, meeting the threat of violence with physical resistance, is also valid.

The problem, as I see it, is when we go overboard and start saying things like "nuke them all" and "kill all Muslims". At that point, I think we've abandoned the search for peace through justice and moved into vengeance and in doing so, lose God.

In your opinion, does the desire for the greater peace to be found with God put a duty on us to not respond to threats of death in this world? I'm not saying that to debate or anything. I'm sincerely interested because I've heard that from several people and was wondering about your take on the idea of  self-defense vs. martyrdom. It is a topic that has engaged the Church from its very beginnings, that's for certain.

I agree with you Nabob and I have never, ever suggested wide scale bombing or the use of Nukes.  Thou some here want to paint me with that brush it is simply not accurate and betrays the fact that they just aren't reading what I'm typing...........  The only REAL and FINAL solution is 'conversion' to convert the Muslims (entirely) to either Christianity,Judism, Hinduism or Buddism or even Mother Earth Goddess worship.  Therefore, we should immediately use all of our own natural resoruces to minimize our dependence on oil from Muslim nations.  THEN, we can inform them that as long as these nations do not allow Missionaries form outside of Islam to actively work (and the government would have to provide security)  in their countries, then we would 'flat out and completely' refuse to do any trade with them.  And that means pulling out all the McDonalds and Pepsi and what have you.  I would make it a crime for any Company to do business with these Countries, further more I would ban any Companies (from outside the US) that were trading with said Countries from doing trade with the US.  Will this ever happen?  Probably not because we have all the wackos that are afraid of allowing Relgious Groups to have any part of Government.

Sorry this is not well worded but I don't have time to really formulate my thoughts.......... maybe later.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #51 on: August 06, 2006, 11:19:18 AM »
Quote
But bnefore I do, I want to ask a question here.
I would really like to engage the debate, but honestly if you were sitting in my position how would you take the attacks on just about everything that "You" have lived by all of your life, and see that what you believe is made a mock of.
Please tell me here, how on earth do I not take that personally and how do I not make a personal reply?
I am told that I am "... a sick puppy..." I need to go see a doctor because I "...need help..."?, after reading some of the absolutely outlandish tripe posted for an intellectual argument?  Maybe there is someone on the bulletin board who is in need of help, but it is certainly not me.
Just what should be my reply here?

I see a definite difference between cricticizing the public figures for actions on the job and taking personal jabs at GBO members. That is why I allow what could be considered attacks on them. Public figures are in the public eye and are subject to public scrutiny.


Bill aka the Graybeard
President, Graybeard Outdoor Enterprises
256-435-1125

I am not a lawyer and do not give legal advice.

Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life anyone who believes in Him will have everlasting life!

Offline rifleman61

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #52 on: August 06, 2006, 03:16:18 PM »
I will bite my tongue
"...Aye Aye Sir..."

Anchor's Away/Semper Fi
CPO Bull

Offline powderman

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #53 on: August 06, 2006, 04:17:39 PM »
WEll, I must admit that I take a dim view of folks who disrespect the president of the United States. I detest the term bushco, etc. I truly believe that if weren't for the agressive actions by president Bush, that we would have been hit several more times by these Godless scum. Theres another forum I frequent that is totally anti Bush, my replies have been 4 or 5 over 2 years or so. They hate Bush and Israel over there. My last 2 posts were deleted. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline lakota

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #54 on: August 06, 2006, 10:13:47 PM »
I agree with Powderman. This Nation is safer as a result of the Presidents actions. I dont agree with the way a lot of things have been handled, but wrong or not we are safer as a result.
Hi NSA! Can you see how many fingers I am holding up?

Offline williamlayton

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #55 on: August 07, 2006, 12:36:36 AM »
I have no problem with self-defense.
I do have a concern with kill 'em all and let God sort it out.
I cannot do anything about their attitude or beliefs.
I can present but I cannot convience.
I do not know who is the good, the bad or the ugly.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #56 on: August 07, 2006, 02:03:23 AM »
What prompted this post to begin with was a statement from another friend that history repeats itself.

Bring on the Crusades!  ;D
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
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Offline WmRoy

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #57 on: August 07, 2006, 05:16:47 AM »

WmRoy. In all due respect, I see alot of your posts, including those posts in the non-biblical forum, as whipping up alot of animosity, even hate, towards Moslems in general.

............................TM7

I will challenge you to produce even one post where I stated that I hate Muslims!!  I have always and have said it often that I have no problem whatso ever with the Muslim people!!  It is the religion that I have no use for!!  There is a difference............ I do not hate Muslims, in fact I would love nothing better then to see each and everyone of them leave the vile religion of Islam behind and become a productive member of the world society.......... I do recognize Islam as the tool of Satan that it is and therefore believe it should be confronted at every gate..... I am not advocating violence nor hatred but simply awareness and recognition of what the religion truly is.  And yes I am aware of the differenct sects of Islam and the Islamic People don't even recognize as Islamic the 'liberal' and 'moderate' sects, and these sects are generally very small.  I have read the Koran and some of the Islamic Law, it is a frightening read and I really have to say if you haven't researched it than you owe it to yourself to read it!!  Of course if you don't believe in faith of any making then you really won't understand how dangerous it really is!!  God Bless and Good Bye!

Offline WmRoy

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Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: Can a good Muslim be a good American?
« Reply #59 on: August 07, 2006, 09:48:27 AM »
Interesting read, but note that it is an editorial, an opinion.  It isn't being portrayed as factual reporting, just his perspective.   You can't half trust the stuff that the media claims to be "factual", so I have real doubts about the stuff that doesn't even bother to claim it.

Ian
Kids that Hunt, Fish and Trap
Dont Steal, Deal, and Murder


usually...