a 165g Ballistic Tip at 2882fps in a .30-06 and 3260fps in a .300 Win Mag, the .300 Win adds 50 yards to the point where the bullet drop is 10” below Point Of Aim (350 yards and 400 yards respectively)
Go back and read where I said a big mag starts to shine. I think you will see an amazing
coincidence.
That’s not a coincidence, I picked the loads and the comparison data intentionally because you had mentioned 350 yards and we were discussing shots out to 400 yards. Had I picked Maximum Point Blank Range when zeroed for a 6” target, we would have been talking about 288 yards and 323 yards for the .30-06 and .300 Win Mag respectively. I don’t see any “350 yards” in either of those distances, do you? In other words some people would believe that the Mag starts to outshine the .30-06 well before 300 yards, let alone 350.
Just a few factory loads:
.243 Winchester = WW 95g Ballistic Silvertip (3100fps), Federal 95g Ballistic Tip (3025fps)
.25-06 = Winchester 115g Ballistic Silvertip (3060fps), Federal 100g Ballistic Tip (3210fps)
.270 Winchester = Winchester 130g Ballistic Silvertip (3050fps), Federal 130g Ballistic Tip (3060fps)
.280 Remington = Winchester 140g Ballistic Silvertip (3040fps)
.30-06 = Winchester 125g PSP (3125fps)
Based on your own 3000fps criteria, the use of premium bullets is called for in many cases even with non-magnums.
Again with the muzzle velocities. The only two on that list that might still be faster than 3000 fps at even 40 yards is the 25-06 100 grain and the 30-06 125 grain. And they would be barely above it. The rest would easily be below it.
Your selection of 3000fps impact velocity is entirely arbitrary – but most people I know would consider that far too high for standard cup and core bullets. In fact, many people feel, based on experience, that 2600fps to 2700fps at impact is the maximum for reliable performance - meaning reliable expansion with no blow up. To achieve those impact velocities at all reasonable ranges, muzzle velocity needs to be limited to around 2800fps. Some people are comfortable going higher, I am not.
Also I know of nobody that uses the 125gr 30-06 bullet for deer hunting. Terrible BC for a deer bullet. I suppose it might make a decent coyote round if you didn't care about pelt damage. The 100 gr 25-06 would certainly not be my first choice for up close woodland shots but unless you had the barrel jammed into the deers rib cage you would most likely have no problems.
You make my point – it is very easy to make what some might consider inappropriate selections even with non-magnum cartridges. I would not use the 125g HP for deer either – I’d use a 130g FN instead, but my chioce is a 170g. As to Ballistic Coefficient, who cares when the average shot is 100 yards? I would be much more concerned about the bullet’s Sectional Density.
In other words a valid reason to carry “too much gun” would be because you like to?
Please! Now you are just trying to be ridiculous. I never said anyone not using a 30-30 is overgunned. And I gave a perfectly good reason that had nothing to do with caliber size as to why I use the rifles that I do. I've never heard of being over gunned with a 7mm-08 but okay I'll take that heat.
No, you did not say that “anyone not using a 30-30 is overgunned”. I’m saying that by your own criteria you are overgunned with your 7mm-08 or .25-06 and especially your .30-06.
Your reason was that, and I quote, “I like highly accurate bolt guns”. Not that they are needed, as they are not at the ranges you are talking about, but that you “like” them. Many deer have fallen to the .30-30 in the last century and in the hands of a capable shooter it will take deer well past the average ranges you are concerned about.
So yes – you are “overgunned” by your own criteria and you are so because of personal preferences and choices. Yet you condemn others for being what you consider “overgunned” because of what their personal preferences lead them to choose.
I thought you said you could shoot well – what do you mean by “I probably have only killed 3 deer in the last 10 years that I couldn't have killed with a 30-30”?
It means that I have killed at least 3 deer in the 300 yard range. A 30-30 with even the lighter 150 gr bullet in factory loads will drop about 29 inches at 300 yards. That's a lot. The 170 gr drops more. In factory loads the 150 grain bullet retains only about 565 ft-lbs of energy and the 170 grain bullet only retains about 720 ft-lbs of energy at that distance. Thats just getting too low. The 30-30 was never concieved or intended to be a 300 yard deer rifle and therefore I wouldn't use it as one. Having enough energy left to ring a gong at 300 plus yards does not make the 30-30 a long range deer cartridge.
Once again you are making all-encompassing statements that are patently wrong. Yes, depending on your load, if you zero your .30-30 at 100 yards, you can expect the bullet to be down around 29” at 300 yards. And if you zero it for 50 yards it will be down even further. But with proper load selection and zeroing the situation changes dramatically.
Let’s take 3 factory loads, the Federal 125g HP, 150g FN and 170g Partition, and my own loads using the Speer 130g, 150g and 170g FNs. Instead of zeroing for 100 yards or 200 yards, we will assume a zero for Maximum Point Blank Range using a 6” diameter target – meaning the bullet will never be more than 3” above or below the target from the muzzle to MPBR.
Let’s’ get some assumptions out of the way first:
Federal 125g HP = 2570fps M.V., .153 B.C., .188 S.D.
Federal 150g FN = 2390fps M.V., .268 B.C., .226 S.D.
Federal 170g Partition = 2200fps M.V., .252 B.C., .256 S.D.
CH Speer 130g FN = 2512fps M.V., .248 B.C., .196 S.D.
CH Speer 150g FN = 2440fps M.V., .268 B.C., .226 S.D.
CH Speer 170g FN = 2260fps M.V., .304 B.C., .256 S.D.
In lieu of better data, I used the 125g HP B.C. listed in Lyman 48th for the Federal 125g HP load. I also assumed the Federal 150g FN is the Speer, a sister company, so that the only difference between the Federal 150g load and mine is a few fps.
With that out of the way, and using “Point Blank” as the ballistic calculator, here are the MPBR, drop at 300 yards and energy at 300 yards for each of the loads.
Federal 125g HP = 218yds MPBR, -19.1” @ 300, 430fpe @ 300
Federal 150g FN = 227yds MPBR, -14.5” @ 300, 832fpe @ 300
Federal 170g Partition = 207yds MPBR, -20.5” @ 300, 740fpe @ 300
CH Speer 130g FN = 235yds MPBR, -12.7” @ 300, 754fpe @ 300
CH Speer 150g FN = 231yds MPBR, -13.5” @ 300, 873fpe @ 300
CH Speer 170g FN = 218yds MPBR, -16.5” @ 300, 921fpe @ 300
No 29” drops in that mix of loads, unless you see something I don’t.
By contrast, a 158g Hornady FP-XTP has a B.C. of .199 and a S.D. of .177. Pushed out the barrel of a .357Mag carbine at 1650fps (Hornady 5th maximum load) it starts out with 955fpe at the muzzle, retains 784fpe at 50 yards and 646fpe at 100 yards. Most people consider this an acceptable for deer at 50 yards and many would have not problem at 100. Regardless, the Federal 150g load delivers more energy at 300 yards than the .357 Mag load does at 50 yards (832fpe vs. 784fpe) and does so using a bullet with a higher Sectional Density (.226 vs. .177). My 170g .30-30 handload delivers more energy at 300 yards than the .357 Mag does at 10 yards, and again does so using a bullet with a higher Sectional Density (.256 vs. .177). If you don’t consider the .30-30 with the right loads and zero capable at 300 yards, I can’t help but wonder what you think of the .357Mag?
You mention 1000fpe as all that is necessary for Alabama deer. The deer hasn’t lived that can tell the difference between 1000fpe and 921fpe, which is what my 170g load delivers at 300 yards. And it does so with a bullet with a higher Sectional Density than your .25 caliber 100g bullet (.256 vs. .216).
You are comfortable taking a 400 yard shot with a .25-06 and a 100g Ballistic Tip but not with taking a 300 yard shot with an appropriate .30-30 load. Let’s compare Federal’s .25-06 100g Ballistic Tip load at 400 yards to my .30-30 170g load at 300 yards...
Federal 100g BT = 3210fps M.V., .393 B.C., .216 S.D.
CH Speer 170g FN = 2260fps M.V., .304 B.C., .256 S.D.
Federal 100g BT = 311yds MPBR, -12.3” @ 400, 1185fpe @ 400, 2310fps @ 400
CH Speer 170g FN = 218yds MPBR, -16.5” @ 300, 921fpe @ 300, 1704fps @ 400
A few thoughts come to mind:
1. If you know the range and the trajectory, the 4” difference in drop is insignificant. (If you thought otherwise you would be arguing FOR magnums at 400 yards, right?)
2. Momentum is often a better indicator of penetration capability than energy. In this case, while the .25-06 has a 29% advantage in energy, the .30-30 load has a 25% advantage in momentum, a 70% advantage in bullet weight, and a 19% advantage in Sectional Density. It has been shown repeatedly in various tests that a bullet traveling slowly will usually out-penetrate a bullet of similar or lighter weight that is traveling significantly faster, although this is contrary to most people’s expectations. In this case I’m willing to bet the .30-30 load would penetrate better.
3. If the .30-30’s 921fpe isn’t enough to reliably kill a deer, the .25-06’s 1185fpe doesn’t offer all that much of an advantage – particularly at bad angles where deep penetration is important.
4. I’m not recommending a .30-30 as the best choice for a 300-yard deer gun, but I’m not recommending a .25-06 and a 100g bullet as the best choice at 400 yards, either. Your comfort level with the latter and discomfort with the former speaks volumes.
