Author Topic: What do you all think about the magnum trend?  (Read 11935 times)

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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #90 on: August 09, 2006, 04:03:23 PM »
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Ignore him and maybe he will just go away.

Practice what you preach. Is someone holding a gun on you to force you to visit this thread?

Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #91 on: August 09, 2006, 04:17:14 PM »
Another excellent article. Wow, I'm not so unusual in my feelings on this subject as you guys seem to indicate.

                                      Cannons in the Field

                                           By Chuck Hawks



No, this isn't a war story, its an article about the current trend toward ever more powerful hunting rifles. Rifles packing such excessive overkill power that I refer to them as "cannons" when used on the species of deer, antelope, sheep, and goats that we refer to collectively as medium size big game animals (or sometimes just medium game).

An acquaintance who manages the gun department of a large discount department store in my area recently told me that 7mm Magnum and .300 Magnum rifles were at or near the top of new rifle sales, particularly to younger shooters. He went on to tell me that these buyers viewed rifles in .30-06 Springfield and similar calibers as "old men's rifles."

I found this passing strange, as I live in an area where by far the most commonly hunted big game animal is the Columbian blacktail deer. This inoffensive creature runs about 150-200 pounds on the hoof and lives in and near the dense forests and heavy undergrowth of western British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. Blacktails are more commonly killed at less than 100 yards than over, and a .30-30 rifle is nearly perfect for this size game under these conditions.

About the time I began writing this article I bought a hunting magazine devoted to North American trophy hunting at a local super market. This particular issue was largely filled with accounts of successful deer and pronghorn antelope hunts. In fact, it included a special antelope hunting section. I tabulated the rifles used by the authors of those stories to bag pronghorns, which are animals averaging about 90-110 pounds live weight. The final count showed rifles chambered for the following cartridges: 1 for .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, 1 for .300 Weatherby Magnum, 1 for 7mm Remington Ultra Magnum, 2 for 7mm STW, 2 for 7mm Remington Magnum, and 1 for .270 Winchester.

What is wrong with this picture? With the exception of the guy who used the .270, the rest of those calibers are better suited to 500 pound animals than 100 pound animals! (Not that a .270 won't also kill a 500 pound animal if required.) Not a single one of these hunters used a traditional and appropriate antelope caliber like .243 Winchester, 6mm Remington, .240 Weatherby, .257 Roberts (+P), or .25-06 Remington.

To bag sundry North American deer the hunters featured in the same issue used rifles chambered for the following cartridges: 2 for .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, 1 for .300 Weatherby Magnum, 1 for .300 Winchester Magnum, 1 for 7mm STW, 1 for 7mm Remington Magnum, 3 for .270 Winchester, 1 for 7mm-08 Remington, and 1 for .243 Winchester. Every one of those Magnums (6 out of 11 of those "deer rifles") would have been more appropriate for hunting game two to three times the size of the deer they were actually used to kill.

Magnum rifles like those in the examples above are what I was thinking of when I decided to title this article "Cannons in the Field," and their use seems to be increasing. These rifles are far more powerful than necessary or desirable for use on medium size big game. The most commonly encountered overkill calibers used for hunting animals the size of deer and pronghorn antelope are the 7mm Magnums and .300 Magnums, but also include the 8mm and .338 Magnums.

There is nothing wrong with using a powerful magnum cartridge if you are hunting elk, eland, moose, or grizzly bear. A .300 Magnum rifle may be a reasonable choice for a mixed bag deer and elk hunt if long range shots at elk are likely. For that matter, there is no reason why a hunter who likes the sound and thunder of a big boomer, and can shoot it as accurately as a standard caliber, should not use his pet cannon to blast creatures as inoffensive as impala, pronghorn antelope, or whitetail deer.

But there is definitely something wrong when gun writers imply in their articles and reviews that such calibers are necessary or desirable for hunting medium size big game. Surely there is no logical reason for the ordinary hunter, who presumably is not a masochist, to use such powerful rifles on the species of deer, antelope, sheep, and goats that most of us hunt. The hidden purpose of this is to sell new rifles for their magazines' advertisers.

I suspect that it is the desire to reach out and kill animals at extreme range, a practice that should be discouraged in any case, which sells many ultra powerful rifles. If so, those buyers are mistaken. As those who have read my article Ultra-Long Range Rifles and Cartridges already know, only the largest and most radical magnum calibers confer any practical advantage in trajectory over the standard long range calibers like the 6mm Remington and .270 Winchester.

The short or standard length 7mm Magnums (with 140-150 grain bullets), short or standard length .300 Magnums (with 165-180 grain bullets), the 8mm Remington Magnum (with 170-180 grain bullets), or the European 8x68S (with a 170 grain bullet) all have muzzle velocities of 3000-3150 fps, and similar trajectories. Also in the same class in terms of velocity and trajectory are the .340 Weatherby Magnum and .338 Remington Ultra Magnum with 225 grain bullets.

The hunter seeking a flat shooting rifle for use on medium size game gains nothing by using one of those calibers instead of a 6mm Remington, .25-06, 6.5mm Remington Magnum, 6.5x68S, .270 Winchester, .280 Remington, or 7x64 Brenneke. All of these calibers also have muzzle velocities in the area of 3000-3150 fps, and all of them have similar trajectories with bullets of similar ballistic coefficient.

But the shooter blasting away with a 7mm, .300, 8mm, or .338 Magnum certainly pays a price in muzzle blast, recoil, and accuracy. No one likes to be punished, and few if any shooters can shoot as well with one of these cannons as they can with a standard caliber.

It is almost always the hunter's failure to place the bullet in a vital spot that causes lost and wounded medium game animals, not a lack of energy or killing power. A 90 grain .243 bullet in the heart/lung area is a good deer slayer, a 180 grain .300 Magnum bullet that misses a vital spot is not, despite weighing twice as much and carrying almost twice the energy at 300 yards. As always, bullet placement is by far the most important factor in killing power.

It is revealing to examine the real ultra-long range cartridges, the flattest shooting cartridges available, and see how many are clearly in the overkill category for use on medium size game. Let me quote from Ultra-Long Range Rifles and Cartridges:

"A careful perusal of the ammunition manufacturers ballistics tables and the popular reloading manuals reveals that the best of the (at lease moderately well known) ultra-long range cartridges appear to be the .240 Weatherby Magnum (100 grain bullet at 3400 fps), .257 Weatherby Magnum (115-120 grain bullet at 3300-3400 fps), 6.5x68S (120 grain bullet at 3300 fps), .264 Winchester Magnum (120 grain bullet at 3300 fps), .270 Weatherby Magnum (130-140 grain bullets at 3300-3375 fps), 7mm Weatherby Magnum (140-150 grain bullets at 3300 fps), 7mm STW (140 grain bullet at 3325 fps), 7mm Ultra Magnum (140 grain bullet at 3425 fps), .300 WSM and .300 Winchester Magnum (150 grain bullets at 3300 fps), .300 Weatherby Magnum (165 grain bullet at 3350 fps), .300 Remington Ultra Magnum (165 grain bullet at 3350 fps), .30-378 Weatherby Magnum (180 grain bullet at 3450 fps), and 8mm Remington Magnum (150 grain bullet at 3400 fps). As you can see, all of these cartridges launch general purpose hunting weight bullets (for their respective calibers) at 3300-3450 fps."

Of the dozen ultra-long range cartridges listed above, six come in standard (.30-06) length magnum cartridges of .24 to .28 (7mm) caliber, two are long Super 7mm Magnums, five are .300 Magnums, and one is an 8mm Magnum. All of the standard length .24, .25, .26, .27 and 7mm caliber ultra-long range cartridges are entirely adequate for use on medium size game at extreme range (even though most hunters are not). All six of these kick less than any of the larger ultra-long range magnums.

So why in the world would any rational person choose a Super 7mm Magnum, .300 Magnum, or 8mm Magnum cartridge for shooting medium size game, even at extreme range? What accounts for the sales of these cannons? I can only conclude that it is ignorance of the true facts, coupled with bad advice from retailers and irresponsible journalism on the part of many gun writers.

A good rule of thumb is to use as much rifle as necessary, but no more, to accomplish the job at hand. That way the hunter will always do his or her best shooting. We owe our quarry a clean, one shot kill, and that primarily results from good bullet placement. It is unwise for the hunter and unfair to the game when a hunter handicaps him or her self with a rifle that degrades that hunter's ability to deliver the most accurate shot possible.

I would suggest saving the super magnums for the large, heavy, or dangerous game that justifies their power, muzzle blast, and recoil. For hunting medium size big game at long range use one of the flat shooting standard calibers from .243 to .280, or (if you are sure you are rifleman enough to take advantage of them) one of the ultra-long range Magnum calibers from .240 to .270. At short and medium range, cartridges in the .30-30 class remain ideal. (For more on that subject, see my article Ideal Deer Cartridges.) Good hunting and, most of all, good shooting!
 

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #92 on: August 09, 2006, 05:06:00 PM »
 ;D


Offline sniperVLS

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #93 on: August 09, 2006, 05:15:24 PM »
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"I suspect that it is the desire to reach out and kill animals at extreme range, a practice that should be discouraged in any case, which sells many ultra powerful rifles."

He should'nt have said "in any case" within that sentence. The longrange hunters I know are very very serious about taking game at such ranges. Sure the mood changes when your after groundhogs or prairiedogs, but its all business when a large animal is in their crosshairs.

I prefer long range shots most of the time honestly. If someone says "but anyone can do that", I say BS. Go try and shoot a 1 gallon milk jug at 600 yards and farther.

Dont get me wrong, I like seeing how close I can get at times by 'stalking' the animal, but Im sick and tired of people saying that shooting long range isn't hunting.

A dead Elk is a dead Elk, and If some of us can do it at 600 yards and further, all while placing a single well-constructed, harder hitting bullet where it needs to go....... Dont hate.

My favorite caliber BY FAR is the tried and tested .308, but I adore the .300winmag and the .300RUM as well. I can shoot those as good as I do the .308(its just not as pleasant after 30 rounds).

.22-250
.308
.300wm
.300rum

Those are all I'll ever need. Do I have a bias towards "magnums"? Not at all.

Whats sad is that people in todays society think a .270/.308/.30-06 can't kill an Elk or Moose out to 200 yards and think they need a freakin .416 rigby as a minimum. Can they use what they want? Ofcourse. But to say that you NEED something that huge is just silly!. those critters have been killed for centuries with bows and arrows for poops sake!

If I go hunting and *plan* on long range shots *only*, say for deer, Im taking the .300rum. If one crosses my path and its closer than 400 yards(example only for arguments sake), I wont take the shot. I'd rather wait for that one longer range opportunity that gets the adrenaline going. 

Could a .308 kill an average sized deer at 400 and 500 yards, ofcourse. Even with factory ammo youre still getting 1,000 to 1,200 ft lbs of energy @ 500yds.. But If I can shoot a .300rum(that offers 5 to 600 more ft lbs at that same range) just as well and with the same amount of confidence and accuracy, Im taking the .300rum in that situation. Is that overkill? I dont believe so, not at that range. And 500 yards is NOT Ultra long range. Maybe thats subjective, but thats just the tip of the ice berg as far as long range goes. Having guys get a woodhuck at 2,100 yards is Ultra long range.  Its all subjective, well to a point anyways.

Going after a deer with a magnum caliber and blasting away at it within 100 yards is ludicrous. Say g-bye to a lot of the meat you could have eaten. If they lack the knowledge of ballistics and compensate by firing a "cannon" at something thats close, alls I can do is hope they see the light someday and look back on their actions and ask what the hell they were thinking  :D Yeah it stinks that they give some of us a bad name but things could be worse right :)

Flame away but my opinion on the matter stands as typed above :)



Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #94 on: August 09, 2006, 06:07:06 PM »
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Dont get me wrong, I like seeing how close I can get at times by 'stalking' the animal, but Im sick and tired of people saying that shooting long range isn't hunting.

I don't think that Chuck was trying to say that it isn't hunting but rather that's it's not something that the average person should be encouraged to attempt. And he's right. As you point out consistently hitting a milk jug at 600 yards is not exactly a common feat of marksmanship despite what some of the guys upset with me here would have you believe.

Quote
Flame away but my opinion on the matter stands as typed above

Careful actually having a strong opinion is viewed as a pretty bad thing with most of the visiters to this thread. They would much rather you chant the herd mantra "I think whatever you think" "I think whatever you think" Riviting stuff.

Offline roper

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #95 on: August 10, 2006, 01:43:30 AM »
Was a very interesting article by Chuck Hawks, his reasoning if you read para 3 is hunting blacktail deer and assuming most are killed at less than 100yds and he does have some valid points.  I took my first Blacktail with a 30-30 was with my dad hunting around  Calistoga, Calif  around 1955 cann't remember how far, took my last Calif Blacktail in 1976 was hunting around Hope Valley, Calif was shooting a 30-338 mag shot was alittle over 300yds.  I switched over to a mag rifle in appr 1967 for most of my Calif deer hunting, if I was hunting some heavy timber or thick stuff would use a 270 or 284 I had the barrels at 20" better handling.  I plan on going back to Calif to hunt next year kind of my 65th birthday present.  Well good luck to all.





Offline jdt48653

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #96 on: August 10, 2006, 05:26:14 AM »
::) looks like this subject has created it own sporting event!

it has a life of its own,someone kill it.(use a magnum)

Offline S.S.

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #97 on: August 10, 2006, 06:31:06 AM »
Extra large bottle of Champagne ! You are correct !
Well, Take the bottle, Pour out the Champagne (As Champagne is NASTY)
Refill with "Captain Morgan"  or "Jose Quervo" and follow through with original
suggestion in my other post .. ;D  Large Bottle, Large glass, either will suffice !
This is one situation where a MAGNUM is without a doubt BETTER !

This would at least be more productive than this arguement !
even if it only produced a severly painful headache and projectile vomiting  :P

If I barfed at over 3000 f.p.s. would I be a Magnum ?
I have felt like I have achieved that before !
I must be a Magnum !
The 3000 PG Magnum !
(PG = Porcelain God)...
 

Too Tense here,  Just trying to lighten things Up a bit  ;)
Vir prudens non contra ventum mingit
"A wise man does not pee against the wind".

Offline Brithunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #98 on: August 10, 2006, 11:29:08 AM »
Well the high velocity trend and pursuit of the same is nothing new, heck it's been going on for over 100 years  ::). I suppose the first real "Magnum" cartridge although it was not called so was the .280 Ross, 140 Grain bullet at around 3100 fps, bullet construction came to the fore as some hunters used the fairly fragile bullet on unsuitable game with rather drastic results. One example being Lord Grey who had his head bitten off by the male Lion he shot and the bullets exploded in the surface muscle of it's chest  :o instead of penetrating, the fabled shock factor did not drop the Lion in it's tracks as some thought it should  ::).

Magnum trend? ........................... maybe but if there really is one then it's down to gun scribes pedalling them not because they are better. They have a place and a use but I suspect that most hunters do not really need a magnum cartridge, I know that I don't for my hunting a very long shot here would be 250 yards hardly requiring a magnum. if it "floats you boat" well that is you affair, your money your shoulder and your hearing  ;).

Offline jdt48653

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #99 on: August 10, 2006, 03:31:51 PM »
i see this beast still lives!,so, it appears that to many (magnum) means louder,faster,more kick,more
powder.what about the 22mag.or the 222rem mag or the 357mag.for most magnums there are
more powerful none magnum loads.only the largest magnums are real nasty!and thats how their
owners want it.many magnums have been surpassed by more powerful none mag loads.

Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #100 on: August 10, 2006, 04:00:04 PM »
 I smell a

coming on :-X



Offline Don Fischer

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #101 on: August 10, 2006, 04:41:20 PM »
Anybody remember what this thred was about? Something to do with magnums. I don't use them anymore but they do kill things! I've shot a bunch of deer with a 7mm Rem mag and one with a 338 Win Mag. Also shot a lot of Montana gopher's with a 338 Win mag. That 338 was a bit hard on the deer I shot but worked very well on the gophers.

Oh, by the way, isn't a magnum a big bottle of wine?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline Cheesehead

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« Reply #102 on: August 10, 2006, 05:37:47 PM »
I have a 222 Remington Magnum and it is NICE. Not magnum like at all. It comes in the shape of a model 700 made way back in the 60's.The word magnum is over used and has no clear definition.

Cheese
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance.

Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #103 on: August 10, 2006, 06:50:54 PM »
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They have a place and a use but I suspect that most hunters do not really need a magnum cartridge

Which is basically all I said but my lord the hellstorm it caused.

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what about the 22mag.or the 222rem mag or the 357mag.for most magnums there are

Yeah there are definately some small calibers with the name magnum attached really as nothing more than a sales gimmick. That's why I have tried to focus my comments towards the truely big mags.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #104 on: August 10, 2006, 07:10:10 PM »
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So why in the world would any rational person choose a Super 7mm Magnum, .300 Magnum, or 8mm Magnum cartridge for shooting medium size game, even at extreme range? What accounts for the sales of these cannons? I can only conclude that it is ignorance of the true facts, coupled with bad advice from retailers and irresponsible journalism on the part of many gun writers.

Hmmmmmm... This sounds like..." Well...I don't use one...so...you shouldn't either..."

Again...Just because he doesn't think there is...or..anyone else...doesn't make it correct...for the person that does infact need a magnum...I guess anyone who uses a magnum is illrational now huh ::).....sheeese

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #105 on: August 10, 2006, 08:14:25 PM »
Good article below


                                                         Magnumitis
                                                           by Mike Moen
 


A few years ago,  an old-timer I know was cleaning out his garage and came across a couple of boxes of old Field and Stream and American Rifleman magazines that he had earmarked for the trash.  Since, it seems, that I am always looking to add more clutter to my life, I told him I would take them off his hands.  He agreed and I was the proud owner of a hundred or so periodicals that were decades out of date.  After convincing my wife that it is not technically dumpster diving until the objects are actually in the dumpster, I set off to page through my “new” resources.   I think it’s interesting to read about guns and hunting tales from long ago, and compare it to the way things are today.  After a few magazines, I noticed that the idea of what is a “powerful” rifle has changed over the years.  One article on elk hunting stated that the 30-06 is about perfect but the stiff recoil may be too much for some, and suggested something along the lines of a 270 would be more appropriate for most people.  By contrast, today many people consider the ‘06 a starting point for elk rounds and one famous gun writer came under fire recently by implying that the 270 may not be an appropriate choice for elk in many instances.

 
Under the right circumstances the  last three can be enough gun for most North American game, however these are not popular Magnumitis choices
 
So what gives?  Has our quarry developed  armor over the years, or were previous generations just plain wrong.  Of course the answer is neither and next season more animals will fall to the old ‘06 than any other round.  But, flipping through a gun magazine today, it doesn’t take long to realize that the idea of what is “powerful” and “the perfect round” has changed.  While there are few people who would call the 30-06 inadequate for elk, the image of the perfect elk round has evolved into the .30 to .338 caliber magnum class.  I believe that many writers and hunters, whether they know it or not, suffer from at least a small case of what I will unscientifically call Magnumitis.  The main symptom of Magnumitis is the belief that somehow a magnum round is always needed to perform a task that a standard round is very capable of.  In some rare cases the less attractive symptoms of puffing up one’s chest  while bragging about the big guns they shoot, and looking down their noses at little folk who only use weak standard rounds, can also be observed.     

 
It shouldn’t be surprising that many of us suffer from this ailment to some extent or another.  Over the last few years gun and ammunition manufacturers have flooded the market with new products that have the word magnum attached to them.  Whether it’s an ultra, short, standard or whatever, magnums are definitely the talk of the town.  Now don’t get me wrong, I‘m not here to bash magnums.  A few call my gun safe home, and there are definitely times when a magnum outshines a more standard round.  The interest and variety that has been pumped into the shooting industry over the last few years by the new magnums has been wonderful and the large pool of new rounds to choose from benefits everyone.  No matter what you think of the large gun manufacturers, there is no denying that they are very effective in promoting their products.   Gallons of ink have been spilled on advertising and articles in magazines, and the new wiz bang magnums have been the special guests on many hunting shows.  This has had the effect of creating a large group of hunters who believe that the only way to truly kill an animal is to do it with some type of magnum.

 
The truth is that most people don’t have either the skill or the necessity  to take advantage of what magnum rounds offer.  Remington likes to boast about how their 300 Ultra Mag matches the tight string trajectory of the legendarily flat shooting 22-250, but does so with a bullet three times heavier.  While this is true, the advantage of this round over the standard 30-06 with the same bullet is not realized until shots over  250 yards are required.  Even when hunting in most areas of the west, well over 75% of shooting opportunities at game will be under 250 yards.  When the really long shots do present themselves, a flat shooting magnum in the hands of a skilled shooter can definitely be an advantage, but most hunters don’t practice enough to truly squeeze out all of the potential. The other benefit a magnum round provides is higher down range energy or as some people say “more punch”.  The question is though, how much more “punch” does a hunter need?  I am fairly certain that there is not a whitetail deer alive that could tell the difference in a shoulder shot from a 7mm-08 at 300 yards over a shot from a 7mm Remington Magnum with the same bullet.  The result would be same, a freezer full of venison, even though the 08 shows up with 25% less energy.  The extra just isn’t needed.

 
I should probably  pause here and say that I believe being infected with Magnumitis is not necessarily a bad thing.   Just last fall I shot a little six point whitetail at 15 yards with a 7mm Magnum.  This was clearly more gun than needed, and an obvious sign of  Magnumitis.  The outcome, however was perfect, the buck never knew what hit him, and my family got to enjoy grilled backstraps for Easter dinner.  Magnum rounds carry extra baggage with them.  The ammunition is more expensive, magnum guns generally have longer actions, increased recoil can range from slight to down right painful, and  ammunition availability and selection, especially for the newer magnums, may not be as good as for some of the more tried and true standard rounds.  Perhaps the biggest drawback, though, is that some hunters believe that a magnum can somehow compensate for poor shooting skills or bad shot placement.  This of course  is not true.  A poorly hit deer with a magnum is a lot like a poorly hit deer with a standard round.  As with everything else, misguided confidence can get us in trouble.

So what should we do about Magnumitis?  As a whole, I guess it’s not really that bad of a problem.  It’s definitely not as bad as the opposite, or so-called Reverse Magnumitis.  This is where hunters use rounds that are not enough gun for a situation.  In some instances this affliction can border on unethical.  Fortunately for Magnumitis sufferers, this is never a problem.  Their search for more power with guns that would get a good grunt from Tim Allen make it certain that they will always show up with more gun than is needed.  Magnums do definitely get the job done, and there are many situations where they outperform the more meat and potatoes rounds.  Long range shots, and hunts after large or mean critters is what they were designed for and where they shine.  In the hands of a well practice shooter, they can also breed confidence to try different hunting situations such as a trip out west or maybe Alaska.

There is a reason that standard rounds like the 30-06 and 270 Winchester have been popular for decades - simply put, they work.  When this latest magnum craze dies down they will still be two of our most popular rounds.  This is of little concern to the hardcore Magnumitis sufferer.  Each fall he will take to the woods touting his 338 Ultra Mag, waiting for  a whitetail doe to walk past his stand, hoping that his magnum will be enough gun to get the job done. 
 
 


 


Well , I would not call it a bad article as it gives a novice hunter things to consider, such as the beginner may start with a std. round & maybe that is all he needs, for most it is. If he stays in the sport, shoots alot &
does a lot of hunting he will then have the knowledge to make an informed decision as to whether or not
he can benefit from a mag & won't need someone else to tell him, some of us have been there for a long time!

A few things that Mike said here that does not give the desired result.

In the third paragraph he states:
"The main symptom of Magnumitis is the belief that somehow a magnum round is always needed to perform a task that a standard round is very capable of".
Well, not one person in this thread has indicated that we feel this way, as I have stated, I only use a mag. some of the time. By this definition no one in this thread suffers from "Magnumitis" much less being a "victim" of it whatever that means. 

Paragraph 4
"A few call my gun safe home, & there are DEFINITELY times when a magnum outshines a more standard round".
Yes, that is what some of us have been saying all along.

Paragraph 5
"When the really long shots do present themselves, a flat shooting magnum in the hands of a skilled shooter
can definitely be an advantage, but most hunters don't practice enough to trully squeeze out all of the potential."
Yes, the mag does offer an edge for a skilled shooter & we have indicated that one should never shoot beyond YOUR capabilities & most people cannot utilize the range of a 7mm08, but that does not mean then
that we should all use a 30-30.  I have to worry about MY capabilities & I can take advantage of a mag.

He says that I guess Magnumitis is not such a big problem. Well, duh, but at least he could write an article about it so all was not lost.

Again, I guess the article is fine for a novice.   ::)
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #106 on: August 10, 2006, 08:41:14 PM »
Just read the Chuck Hawks Article.

A few things I thought noteworthy, he says "A 300 Magnum rifle may be a reasonable choice for a mixed bag deer and elk hunt if long shots at elk are likely".  Boy, I am sure glad he said that, that is why I bought my 300WM, WHEW  ::)   Oh & he says there is no reason why we can't use it for smaller animals if we can shoot it well. I kinda thought that too because the rifle does not know what we are shooting.

Mr. Hawks stated: "If we are rifleman enough to take advantage of them, one of the ultra-long range magnum calibers from .240 to 270 could be used".  Wow, thanks Chuck!!

Most of this article was putting down gun writers that act like we have to have magnums to hunt even small deer in order to sell guns & I agree with Mr. Hawks on this, but it has no relevance to us because a. we are not gun writters & b. we never said that.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #107 on: August 10, 2006, 08:49:39 PM »
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I give up, I had better intellectual conversations with my 2 year old son 16 years ago. 

I'm not shocked. From what I've read here I'm sure most 2 year olds are a worthy opponent for you.


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.  But I was specifically talking about a Texas Heart Shot on a wounded deer where the bullet may have to pass through 2-3 feet of hide, bone, deer flesh and wet green stuff to hit the vitals. 

If you want 2-3 ft of penetration on deer from any angle such as the scenario you describe then that will be far more affected by bullet type than cartridge size. Armed with a bullet designed for such performance there are again numerous standard calibers that will serve you well.

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By the way, I’m not interested in what “95 percent of the hunters in America” can do, but rather the 0.00001% or so that represents what a particular individual hunter can do.

Then I have no idea what you are pissed about. From my vantage point here is how your and several other posters responces read out.

Dear Todd1700,

     Here are 6 reasons that I am not one of the overgunned, no shooting yahoo's of which you spoke. So, Since your comments had absolutely nothing to do with me and you clearly left open room for execptions like myself in everything you said I am therefore of course immensely pissed that you said them. I just can't figure out why.

Signed, Confusingly Pissed Off in Seattle

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Half your argument is about how recoil affects accuracy, now you admit it’s not an issue for some hunters including yourself.

But it is for many and yet most of those folks are using waaay too much gun. I see it every day.

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The exceptions to your claim are not “few” but “many”, and for those in the “many” category your argument holds no water.

Now you're just haggling over price so to speak. Many is a relative word. If say 20 percent of the people using a big mag shoot it well enough to enjoy the extreme long range advantages that it can offer then in a nation with as many hunters as we have that's still a sizable number of people. Still I contend that far more can't and thus the shooters are badly outnumbered.

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but you have failed to show how using magnums is wrong.

I think I have shown how they're too much gun for the task laid out in my early posts, ie shooting smallish deer at relatively short ranges. Wrong however is a vague term. Wrong in what sense? legally? Morally? Don't think I even tried to make that case.

It wouldn't be illegal or immoral to nail roofing tacks with a 12 lb sledge hammer. It's just more way hammer than you need for the task at hand.

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Where did the term MAGNUM come from ?
If my memory serves, It was a very large Cup for consuming
large quantities of Alcohol without having to get up and refill
your glass so often.

It was first coined to describe extra large bottles of champagne.


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Kids, (especially Todd),

I'm forty. So if you are calling me kid I take that to mean you are about 60?

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I have two deer rifles... a 25-06 which is my primary whitetail rifle, and a 30-06 SS which is my bad weather and elk rifle. I can shoot both accurately within reasonable ranges. Both can kill the intended game farther than I can shoot accurately.

A 30-06 with a well constructed 180 gr bullet will dispatch anything in the lower 48 and most things on the planet. And the 25-06 is a nice mild deer round. I use it often myself.

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My main grudge with the magnums is having to share a shooting range with them. Even worse when they have a brake.

Hmmmmm, why would someone need to have a brake installed on a magnum rifle? I wonder. Naaa, couldn't be because the recoil is kicking their @$$. The guys on this board have blasted me for even suggesting that more than one or two people nationwide are affected by such things.




















OK Todd, so you are forty, nothing wrong with that.  You guessed that Mr. Skeptic is 60, I have no idea, but if he is that is fine too, I would think & I guess that puts me about in the middle.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #108 on: August 10, 2006, 08:59:30 PM »
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Sorry Todd1700 you lost credibility with me. You are just trying to impose your reasoning on us. Face it, some of use just don't hunt deer only

And you never had any to start with. Since you obviously refuse to acknowledge that I clearly stated that hunting larger than deer sized animals is a reason to have a large magnum. Reading skills...... they're important.

Since you will not offer a logical reason why shooting small deer at close range with large magnum is a good idea. I'll show you how it's done and list why it's a bad idea.

1. Bullet overexpansion -----Which directly leads to excess meat damage and even poor penetration. With impact velocities well over 3000 fps ballistic tips and standard lead tip cup and core type bullets tend to dramatically overexpand and experience major core/jacket separation. This leads to a lot of bloodshot meat. And believe it or not but not every shot presented by a deer is a perfect broadside. Even on perfect broadside shots with the bullet placed tight behind the shoulder I've seen a blasted on impact magnum bullet fail to exit the other side and send shrapnel all through the guts and even up into the backstrap. Turning what should have been a perfect shot into a meat masher and a gut shot.

2.Creates artificial need for controlled expansion bullets------ The overexpansion of standard bullets at magnum velocities and the subsequent meat damage and even poor penetration it can cause often force the poor victim of magnumitis to switch to an expensive controlled expansion bullet like a Barnes X-bullet, Swift A-Frame, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Now, not because the game he's hunting is that tough but purely due to magnum overkill Bubba Winmag is having to buy 36 dollar a box ammo just to get a consistent exit hole and save a little meat to eat. Now, if he had stuck with something hurling a bullet in the moderate 2600 to 3000 fps range he could still be using and practicing with much more economical ammo like simple Hornady interlocks. At such speeds they hold together well, almost always exit, and do very little extra meat damage. The deer are just as dead.

3. Recoil induced flinch----- While there are certainly people who shoot even the largest magnums well it's a pretty standard axiom that as recoil and muzzle blast increase accuracy decreases. I'd love to believe that most guys here in Bama carring a magnum with a barrel the size of a Dodge muffler are immune to these effects and therefore crack shots despite it. Problem is I've spent 40 years out among them. Most are not immune and most aren't good shots.

4. Painful recoil = less practice----- If something is fun you will probably do it often. If something isn't fun then you will probably only do it when it's absolutely necessary. We went and patterned our Turkey guns this past spring. Me and a few guys from work headed to my families gravel pit. One of our buddies is the "GOT TO HAVE THE BIGGEST THING MADE" type. So naturally he shows up with a 3 1/2 inch magnum turkey gun. The rest of us spent all evening shooting our standard shotguns. We sighted in our fiber optic turkey sights. We patterned multiple shells from 4 or 5 different companies in 4,5 and 6 shot sizes until each of us found a load our gun liked best. Mr big? He fired two shots and quit. Couldn't stand anymore. Dismiss this as an isolated case if you like but I've seen it time and time again.

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, maybe they are in a no fire zone. Secret papers sent to me by a special envoy revealed they had a few bean
fields & a couple of powerline right of ways in undisclosed locations.

George break out the "Thinks He's Funny but Isn't Detector"

Holy crap Sam it's reading off the scale.

Damn, call the lame @$$ psuedo comedian patrol George. Tell them to bring a crowbar, a colonoscope, an enema bucket, a flashlight and a wash tub full of KY jelly. I think we can find this guys funny bone but we have to get his head out of there first.





I couldn't help notice point number 3. I am sorry that you were abused as a child. In my previous post I have your quote that you are 40 years old. And yet you have been at this game for 40 years. I have heard the term
"riding the recoil" but you took it to a level I never thought possible. I guess when you helped these poor
recoil shy wimps you described earlier, you laid on top of the pistol grip & hung on.

As Redhawk said for good reason that you lost credibility with him, add me to the list. I thought those recoil
stories sounded "ODD", now i understand.

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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #109 on: August 10, 2006, 11:00:40 PM »
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And yet you have been at this game for 40 years

I said I'm 40 years old. I also said I've been among the people of Alabama for 40 years. Seems consistent to me. And why for the love of God would I try to decieve anyone on such an insignificant and ridiculous point? Sorry if my particular wording confused you but I get the impression that you aren't a stranger to that state of mind.

Anyway, Here you go!



If you are gonna grasp at straws then at least go after some pretty colored ones.



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I am sorry that you were abused as a child.

Oh I wouldn't say abused. When I was insolent I was hung upside down in a sack and beaten with a bambo stick. Pretty standard stuff actually. (With apologies to Dr Evil of the Austin Powers movies)

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I guess when you helped these poor
recoil shy wimps you described earlier, you laid on top of the pistol grip & hung on.




I don't think that I said anywhere that it was 40 years ago that I helped them. Again, reading skills, they're important! Perhaps a remedial English class at a local junior college or a private tutor could get you up to par.







Offline victorcharlie

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #110 on: August 11, 2006, 02:20:15 AM »
Actually Todd, when Redhawk1 starts compairing you to his kids, well, that's the highest form of a complement...........few acheive this status.....you and I are the only two I know........who are loved like his children.........flattered yet?

Maybe it's something with us southern boys?

Anyway, a spirited debate is fun sometimes......you sure stired the pot didn't you?
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #111 on: August 11, 2006, 04:16:37 AM »
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They have a place and a use but I suspect that most hunters do not really need a magnum cartridge

Which is basically all I said but my lord the hellstorm it caused.

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what about the 22mag.or the 222rem mag or the 357mag.for most magnums there are

Yeah there are definately some small calibers with the name magnum attached really as nothing more than a sales gimmick. That's why I have tried to focus my comments towards the truely big mags.

IMHO, the ‘hellstorm’ as you call it was not caused by your advocacy of standard cartridges but rather the manner in which you did it – which included needless ad hominem attacks against various individuals and what I and others consider misrepresentations of the facts.

No one here has taken the position that magnums are necessarily needed for Alabama deer, but some contend there is nothing wrong with their use.  Some people find the recoil of a .270 Win to be intolerable, others shoot .300 Mags and larger quite well.  I know a lot of people who, as I did, would laugh at the idea of a .300 Win Mag being in the class  of “truely big mags “.  The same people who would make such a classification, as you apparently do, often also claim there is not enough difference between the .300 and a .30-06 to justify the .300’s usage – as you also do.  Rather contradictory, don’t you think?

You talk about “average” distances of 100 yards, then later talk about open croplands where long shots can be expected.  So you solution is what – take two rifles and only use the magnum if a long shot is presented?  If all you need is a rifle suited to the “average” distance of 100 yards, why do you carry a .30-06, 7mm-08 or .25-06 instead of a .30-30?

You talk about recoil and how the “magnuitis [sic] victims” can’t handle it, then talk about how you’re “not recoil shy in the least”.  Apparently your buddies and acquaintances can’t shoot “whizz bang super duper ultra mags” but you can “shoot them and all rifles quite well”.  I have news for you – you’re not alone.  There are a lot of “whizz bang super duper ultra mags” shot at my club by a lot of people, and I’ve seen a lot of excellent groups as a result.  Yes there are exceptions, and people should use something they can shoot well. 

You talk about the magnum hunters and “it's their deer and if they want to consistently throw half of them away due to bloodshoot meat that's their business”, then talk about “130 lb deer hit at 50 yards quartering away with a 150 grain ballistic tip out of a 300 WSM”.  What you fail to mention is that cartridge and bullet mismatches can occur with any cartridge including non-magnums.  In the 25 years I’ve been elk and deer and antelope hunting I have seen a lot of bloodshot meat caused by standard cup and core bullets fired from non-magnum rifles.  Even my .257 Roberts gets A-Frames when hunting. 

You talk about an idiot “victim of magnumitis with his bruised shoulder and half moon scope cut over his eye ponder in amazement over the fact that the deer he's shooting with his new 300 ultra mag are still running just as far before they die as they did will his old 30-06”.  Yes, that kind of thing happens, but I’ve seen scope cuts and bruised shoulders from .30-06’s, too.  If a person can’t handle a rifle they shouldn’t hunt with it, period.   I’ve known a number of people who can’t handle cartridges like the .270 Win, .280 Rem, .308 Win, .30-06. .338-06, .356 Win, .375 Win, .444 Marlin and .45-70 – all good deer cartridges and not a ‘magnum’ among them. 

A lot of people like .223’s, .22-250’s and .243 Win for deer.  I don’t, and would rather use a 7mm Rem or .300 Win Mag even though my .22-250 shoots smaller groups.  I love my .257 Roberts with ‘+P’ loads, and have used it to take coyotes out to 476 lasered yards.  But when ranges get long I again would rather use the 7mm or .300 mags. 

Currently my safe has rifles in .22-250, .257 Roberts, 7mm Rem Mag, .30-30, .308 Win, .300 Win Mag, .375 Win, .44 Mag, .45-70 and a couple of muzzleloaders.   If I had to pick one rifle to keep and toss the rest, the 7mm Rem Mag or .300 Win Mag would be the hands down winner.



Coyote Hunter
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #112 on: August 11, 2006, 04:18:10 AM »
Nice try

When you said you spent 40 years OUT among them,, you were in reference to flinchers, indicating you have been observing this for 40 years, otherwise your statement has no meaning. So no, that is what you said. It would not be the fault of the reader if that is not what you meant, rather you as a poor communicator, but I don't think that is the case from what I have seen in other posts, it is what it is.

Nice try though!!
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #113 on: August 11, 2006, 04:38:39 AM »
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I found this passing strange, as I live in an area where by far the most commonly hunted big game animal is the Columbian blacktail deer. This inoffensive creature runs about 150-200 pounds on the hoof and lives in and near the dense forests and heavy undergrowth of western British Columbia, Washington, Oregon, and Northern California. Blacktails are more commonly killed at less than 100 yards than over, and a .30-30 rifle is nearly perfect for this size game under these conditions.

Again...this is "I see no need...so you shouldn't either"

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The truth is that most people don’t have either the skill or the necessity  to take advantage of what magnum rounds offer.

How interesting...how does he knows what the majority of shooters can or cannot do...Can we say " God Complex anyone?"


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2.Creates artificial need for controlled expansion bullets------ The overexpansion of standard bullets at magnum velocities and the subsequent meat damage and even poor penetration it can cause often force the poor victim of magnumitis to switch to an expensive controlled expansion bullet like a Barnes X-bullet, Swift A-Frame, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Now, not because the game he's hunting is that tough but purely due to magnum overkill Bubba Winmag is having to buy 36 dollar a box ammo just to get a consistent exit hole and save a little meat to eat. Now, if he had stuck with something hurling a bullet in the moderate 2600 to 3000 fps range he could still be using and practicing with much more economical ammo like simple Hornady interlocks. At such speeds they hold together well, almost always exit, and do very little extra meat damage. The deer are just as dead

Now I'm really beggining to understand...not only does he dislike magnums...but he is a Premium bullet hater as well and this speaks volumes....Also...what conotatations are you putting on this individual just because he is using a 300 Win Mag? I suppose anyone who uses a 300 Win Mag you have to call names and put them down? This says more about you than you truely realize...remember...these are your words sir...and I am not clutching at straws.....

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There is nothing wrong with using a powerful magnum cartridge if you are hunting elk, eland, moose, or grizzly bear. A .300 Magnum rifle may be a reasonable choice for a mixed bag deer and elk hunt if long range shots at elk are likely. For that matter, there is no reason why a hunter who likes the sound and thunder of a big boomer, and can shoot it as accurately as a standard caliber, should not use his pet cannon to blast creatures as inoffensive as impala, pronghorn antelope, or whitetail deer.

A telling side of the article...a bit of rational thinking? Perhaps he was thinking...he really didn't want to piss off the entire groups of hunters/shooters who routinely use these rifles...and see's the need for them...

Anycase...you all can argue till your blue in the face about this...but I will say NO ONE truely knows what another person "needs"...needs are not only in the physical realm...but also in the mental realm too...and therefore speaking in genneralities about what someone else may or may not need is quite frankly assine...since we are are individuals with different needs...

Mac


You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline buffalohunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #114 on: August 11, 2006, 10:18:29 AM »
Why is everyone getting so excited, shoot what you like and let everybody else shoot what they want.
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR

Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #115 on: August 11, 2006, 01:01:33 PM »
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When you said you spent 40 years OUT among them,

My parents didn't keep me locked in the house til I was ten. If your life was different then I feel sorry for you.

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you were in reference to flinchers

No I meant that I've lived among them for 40 years. I think it's a pretty telling insight into your personality that now you are trying to tell me what I meant by something that I said. Especially on such a completely trivial point. Good lord man. Get over yourself.

In fact if you Look at the two examples I mention, one involved a 300 WSM and the other a 3 1/2 inch magnum shotgun. Gee, considering that both those chamberings are fairly recent additions to the sporting world one could logically conclude that those incidents did not occur 40 years ago as you try to suggest in an earlier post.

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Now I'm really beggining to understand...not only does he dislike magnums...but he is a Premium bullet hater as well and this speaks volumes..

No, you are assuming too much. Premium bullets have their place. I think I even recomended them if you plan to take Texas heart shots earlier in this thread. (I however don't recomend such a thing unless it's on an already wounded deer as was the case in the scenario earlier in this thread) My point was that by using these large mags at very short range where impact velocities are well over 3000 fps a lot of people are creating a need for expensive ultra tough bullets that normally should not exist. With impact velocities in the 2600 to 3000 fps range standard cup and core lead bullets are all you would ever need for our deer down here. I speak having killed somewhere around 80 to 90 in my lifetime with such bullets. So what these people end up with is a lot more recoil, a lot more muzzle blast, more ear splitting boom and for what? The bullets they eventually gravitate towards using to lessen the excess meat damge and prevent core jacket separation have to be so tough to hold together at these impact speeds that they don't expand any more or kill any faster than a standard rifle bullet. So IMHO whats the point?

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IMHO, the ‘hellstorm’ as you call it was not caused by your advocacy of standard cartridges but rather the manner in which you did it – which included needless ad hominem attacks against various individuals and what I and others consider misrepresentations of the facts.

I adressed no individual specifically until they started attacking my quotes specifically. Go back and look at who directed a post at a specific person first. I have said at least 4 times now that if the descriptions of some of the local over gunned flinchers don't apply to you them why are you pissed? I left room for exceptions in every comment that I made yet some completely overreacted. Sounds like some of you are a tad too insecure. 

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You talk about “average” distances of 100 yards, then later talk about open croplands where long shots can be expected.  So you solution is what – take two rifles and only use the magnum if a long shot is presented? 

No, I'd take a 25-06 or a 270 and kill anything from zero to as far as I could consistently hit it. Which for me is about 400 yards with a good rested position. (Don't have anywhere to practice any farther than that) And let me tell you I don't care what kind of rifle you carry unless you are going to sight it in 4 inches high at 100 yards (Which would be ridiculous here) then you are going to have to know the proper hold over at 400. Even sighting that high at 100 yards only a few of the most powerful mags are going eradicate hold over at 400. And by far the most misinformed locals I know concerning bullet drop at such distances are the magnum men. Why? Because they have bought into the hype about their new magnum hook line and sinker and have a vastly overinflated opinion of it's trajectory. I know this because I talk to them all the time. The fact that such trajectory myths persist year after year here are testiment to two things; One, how rare it is that a 400 yard shot actually presents itself and two, that virtually none of these guys have actually fired any practice shots at 400 yards to see the reality of their new magnums trajectory.

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why do you carry a .30-06, 7mm-08 or .25-06 instead of a .30-30?

Basically because of the guns offered in said calibers. I like highly accurate bolt guns and the 30-30 is pretty much a lever action gun. To be truthful though I probably have only killed 3 deer in the last 10 years that I couldn't have killed with a 30-30 and a straight 4 or 6 power scope. And I am seriously considering getting another 30-30 as I currently do not have one. A fact I consider to be a mark of shame for any rifleman.

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Actually Todd, when Redhawk1 starts compairing you to his kids, well, that's the highest form of a complement...........few acheive this status.....you and I are the only two I know........who are loved like his children.........flattered yet?


Wow, I feel like one of the Marines. The few, the proud!

Quote

Anyway, a spirited debate is fun sometimes......you sure stired the pot didn't you?


Thank you. For goodness sakes if this isn't the place then were is? Wouldn't these forums be dull as hell if we all just agreed all the time? Look at how many other threads are still lingering on these pages without a post in a week. And then look at this one. More interesting I think.





Offline R.W.Dale

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #116 on: August 11, 2006, 01:53:13 PM »
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No, I'd take a 25-06 or a 270 and kill anything from zero to as far as I could consistently hit it.

 Both of the above cartriges easily break that magical 3000 fps barrier, I've got news for ya 100grn .257 bullet impacting at well over 3100 fps is going to come just as close to "blowin up" your deer than a well concructed 180grn .308 diameter bullet impacting at the same speed will. If not more so.

 Sounds like YOU have a case of magnumtitus you just need to come out of the closet.

 I'm going to take a page from your playbook and suggest you quit wastin so much meat and powder. especially in light of your own admission that you don't need such a powerfull round. ::)

 May I suggest getting close and using a 32-20

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #117 on: August 11, 2006, 02:05:45 PM »
So Todd 1700, either your fairly new or just don't post much. 86 post's and 85 on this thred. Welcome to the site. We value your opinion! :)
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #118 on: August 11, 2006, 03:05:56 PM »
OK, you were out there among them but not really, well alrighty then. I guess it is OK then to base your opinion on experience you actually didn't have, but said you did, I see.
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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #119 on: August 11, 2006, 03:40:50 PM »
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So Todd 1700, either your fairly new or just don't post much. 86 post's and 85 on this thred. Welcome to the site. We value your opinion

Actually I've been a member for a long time. Never really noticed how many posts I had until the new site got up and running but I thought it was more than 85 or 86. Is it possible some account records could have been lost in the change over process?

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Both of the above cartriges easily break that magical 3000 fps barrier,

With factory ammo a 130 gr bullet from a 270 leaves the muzzle at about 3060 fps and that's only  if you have a 24 inch barrel. End result is that any impact past 20 yards and you are back under 3000 fps. At 100 yards you are most likely down to about 2700 fps.

Pretty much the same goes for a 25-06 using a 115 or 117 gr bullet. I personally use 117 grain Hornady interlocks in a 25-06 Tikka with a barrel just over 22 inches long so I doubt seriously that my muzzle velocity even starts out at 3000 fps. Probably closer to 2900. The exit holes I get are about the size of a quarter and meat damage is by no means severe.

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May I suggest getting close and using a 32-20

I bowhunt as well and truthfully there is no greater thrill than getting in close. Killing one at 400 yards is fine and a nice bit of shooting but killing one at 25 yards is a nice bit of hunting. I do prefer the latter over the former.

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OK, you were out there among them but not really, well alrighty then. I guess it is OK then to base your opinion on experience you actually didn't have, but said you did, I see.

Well everything before my 4th year is pretty hazy but I can remember back to 5 pretty well. So if it makes you feel better I will modify it to being out among them for 35 years. Feel better now? Will that stop the fevered night sweats you seem to be having over this one ridiculously belabored minor point of misunderstanding? Will it change the meaning or weight of anything I said? Hardly!

If you want to obsess over minor insiginificant points here's one for you. Hot dogs come in packs of 10. Hot dog buns come in packs of 8. Why? Now run along and latch onto Colonial and Sunbeam bakeries @$$ and try and try to get them to change that. At least then you might actually be doing some good.