Author Topic: What do you all think about the magnum trend?  (Read 12071 times)

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Offline dukkillr

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #60 on: August 07, 2006, 06:10:20 PM »
I'm sure people were complaining when smokeless powder, multishot rifles, rifled barrels, etc were invented.  Some people get their kicks by attacking those who use something different than them.

Me?  I just got home from work (long ride by horse).  I had to have my teeth pulled last week with pliars by some guy without any anethetic.  To make matters worse I've got to walk down to the creek to draw water for my bath and meals.  I sure hate those magnums too. 

Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #61 on: August 07, 2006, 08:45:14 PM »
I'm sure people were complaining when smokeless powder, multishot rifles, rifled barrels, etc were invented.  Some people get their kicks by attacking those who use something different than them.

Me?  I just got home from work (long ride by horse).  I had to have my teeth pulled last week with pliars by some guy without any anethetic.  To make matters worse I've got to walk down to the creek to draw water for my bath and meals.  I sure hate those magnums too. 

 ;D
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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #62 on: August 08, 2006, 12:45:29 AM »
Quote
I guess its wrong for those folks to buy a magnum for the elk and then get some practical experience with it at home?

Did you even read my initial post or in your zeal to defend shooting ground squirrels with a 416 Rigby did you just skip over most of it? I clearly state that shooting Elk sized animals is a perfectly legit reason to get a magnum.

Quote
Granddad never used his combine to harvest the sweet corn - but the plow and disc and harrow he used to prepare the ground for Grandma's garden were the same ones he used out in the corn and bean fields.

Yeah but he had a crop field too huh? I'm sure he wouldn't have bought one for a backyard garden. Well, on second thought he was kin to you so maybe so.

Quote
One might even agree - on "average".   But what about shooting whitetail over croplands?  Are you suggesting that doesn't happen in Alabama?

Sure and there's a plethora of standard calibers that will handle it just as well anything. Look up the bullet drop difference between a 270 with a 130 grain bullet and a 300 WM with a 150 grain bullet out to 350 yards. Not enough difference to wipe your butt with. But if the 270 isn't flat enough for you then check out what a 25-06 with 100 grain bullets will do. Recoil will be tame compared to the 300 mag and thus much more conducive to accurate shooting. The deer will be just as dead. In fact with the recoil induced flinch I see most magnumitis victoms suffering from their number of long range vital zone hits would probably increase dramatically with a milder round. I had to take over sighting in one guys 300 WSM at the range last year because he could get a shot on a sheet of paper at 100 yards. Guy was so gun shy that he was snatching his whole head out from behind the scope. I sighted it in for him but dared to suggest that perhaps a milder round would suit him better. Nope, he wouldn't hear of it. He wanted something that would really lay the smack down on them he said. Sweet Jesus!

Quote
So, Todd1700 - please enlighten us - what SHOULD we be using for those Alabama deer?  What do YOU use?

Certainly nothing larger than a 30-06. I currently use either a 25-06 or a 7mm-08. We do have a few large clear cuts on our land and I have never had to pass on a deer with either that I could have gotten with a magnum. Truth is that either a 30-06, 280, 270,  7mm-08 or a 25-06 will kill deer farther out there than the vast, vast, vast, majority of people have any business attempting a shot anyway.

Quote
And its never wrong to use what others might consider "too much gun" if that's what pleases the shooter.

Then a 155 mm howitzer is good to go as a deer round for you? No such thing as too big?




Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #63 on: August 08, 2006, 01:12:03 AM »
Quote
I guess its wrong for those folks to buy a magnum for the elk and then get some practical experience with it at home?

Did you even read my initial post or in your zeal to defend shooting ground squirrels with a 416 Rigby did you just skip over most of it? I clearly state that shooting Elk sized animals is a perfectly legit reason to get a magnum.

Quote
Granddad never used his combine to harvest the sweet corn - but the plow and disc and harrow he used to prepare the ground for Grandma's garden were the same ones he used out in the corn and bean fields.

Yeah but he had a crop field too huh? I'm sure he wouldn't have bought one for a backyard garden. Well, on second thought he was kin to you so maybe so.

Quote
One might even agree - on "average".   But what about shooting whitetail over croplands?  Are you suggesting that doesn't happen in Alabama?

Sure and there's a plethora of standard calibers that will handle it just as well anything. Look up the bullet drop difference between a 270 with a 130 grain bullet and a 300 WM with a 150 grain bullet out to 350 yards. Not enough difference to wipe your butt with. But if the 270 isn't flat enough for you then check out what a 25-06 with 100 grain bullets will do. Recoil will be tame compared to the 300 mag and thus much more conducive to accurate shooting. The deer will be just as dead. In fact with the recoil induced flinch I see most magnumitis victoms suffering from their number of long range vital zone hits would probably increase dramatically with a milder round. I had to take over sighting in one guys 300 WSM at the range last year because he could get a shot on a sheet of paper at 100 yards. Guy was so gun shy that he was snatching his whole head out from behind the scope. I sighted it in for him but dared to suggest that perhaps a milder round would suit him better. Nope, he wouldn't hear of it. He wanted something that would really lay the smack down on them he said. Sweet Jesus!

Quote
So, Todd1700 - please enlighten us - what SHOULD we be using for those Alabama deer?  What do YOU use?

Certainly nothing larger than a 30-06. I currently use either a 25-06 or a 7mm-08. We do have a few large clear cuts on our land and I have never had to pass on a deer with either that I could have gotten with a magnum. Truth is that either a 30-06, 280, 270,  7mm-08 or a 25-06 will kill deer farther out there than the vast, vast, vast, majority of people have any business attempting a shot anyway.

Quote
And its never wrong to use what others might consider "too much gun" if that's what pleases the shooter.

Then a 155 mm howitzer is good to go as a deer round for you? No such thing as too big?





Sorry Todd1700 you lost credibility with me. You are just trying to impose your reasoning on us. Face it, some of use just don't hunt deer only.  :D
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #64 on: August 08, 2006, 01:55:12 AM »
S. Sumner, as you can see the matter could not lay over 12 hours without more discontent because
someone may use a mag. on a Deer.  ::)  The original post did not deal with just Deer to begin with,
twas added later to generate some crap even though it was stated that many use them for Deer.
At first we learned that few Deer were killed in AL. over 100 yds. but now we see that one hunting place has more than 1 clearcut, that may mean that there are other clearcuts on additional properties, so I guess that few are killed in these clearcuts according to the earlier post, maybe they are in a no fire zone. Secret papers sent to me by a special envoy revealed they had a few bean
fields & a couple of powerline right of ways in undisclosed locations.
But wait, even though we may have a field to consider, one of the std. rounds will work under all
circumstances and all ranges provided. And it doesn't matter that you want to use one gun for Deer & Elk/Moose hunting, no you just don't need it for Deer & it is no good because some idiot in
Fictionville AL. flinched with a 300 WSM.

Redhawk, needless to say I share your opinion!!


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Offline victorcharlie

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #65 on: August 08, 2006, 02:35:03 AM »
Dang Dukkillr.......you might need to shoot the .22 lr for a few days! :(

I think this is another one of the topics that has been discussed many times here on GBO.......

If a fellow likes a magnum then that's what america's all about. 

Personally, it's non of my business what a fellow wants or needs. 

Walk into any high end sporting goods store and the selection of rifles is endless.

The merit of one over the other is personal preference and defined by the user.

Would you really want it any other way?

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #66 on: August 08, 2006, 04:55:55 AM »
Quote
Sorry Todd1700 you lost credibility with me. You are just trying to impose your reasoning on us. Face it, some of use just don't hunt deer only

And you never had any to start with. Since you obviously refuse to acknowledge that I clearly stated that hunting larger than deer sized animals is a reason to have a large magnum. Reading skills...... they're important.

Since you will not offer a logical reason why shooting small deer at close range with large magnum is a good idea. I'll show you how it's done and list why it's a bad idea.

1. Bullet overexpansion -----Which directly leads to excess meat damage and even poor penetration. With impact velocities well over 3000 fps ballistic tips and standard lead tip cup and core type bullets tend to dramatically overexpand and experience major core/jacket separation. This leads to a lot of bloodshot meat. And believe it or not but not every shot presented by a deer is a perfect broadside. Even on perfect broadside shots with the bullet placed tight behind the shoulder I've seen a blasted on impact magnum bullet fail to exit the other side and send shrapnel all through the guts and even up into the backstrap. Turning what should have been a perfect shot into a meat masher and a gut shot.

2.Creates artificial need for controlled expansion bullets------ The overexpansion of standard bullets at magnum velocities and the subsequent meat damage and even poor penetration it can cause often force the poor victim of magnumitis to switch to an expensive controlled expansion bullet like a Barnes X-bullet, Swift A-Frame, or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw. Now, not because the game he's hunting is that tough but purely due to magnum overkill Bubba Winmag is having to buy 36 dollar a box ammo just to get a consistent exit hole and save a little meat to eat. Now, if he had stuck with something hurling a bullet in the moderate 2600 to 3000 fps range he could still be using and practicing with much more economical ammo like simple Hornady interlocks. At such speeds they hold together well, almost always exit, and do very little extra meat damage. The deer are just as dead.

3. Recoil induced flinch----- While there are certainly people who shoot even the largest magnums well it's a pretty standard axiom that as recoil and muzzle blast increase accuracy decreases. I'd love to believe that most guys here in Bama carring a magnum with a barrel the size of a Dodge muffler are immune to these effects and therefore crack shots despite it. Problem is I've spent 40 years out among them. Most are not immune and most aren't good shots.

4. Painful recoil = less practice----- If something is fun you will probably do it often. If something isn't fun then you will probably only do it when it's absolutely necessary. We went and patterned our Turkey guns this past spring. Me and a few guys from work headed to my families gravel pit. One of our buddies is the "GOT TO HAVE THE BIGGEST THING MADE" type. So naturally he shows up with a 3 1/2 inch magnum turkey gun. The rest of us spent all evening shooting our standard shotguns. We sighted in our fiber optic turkey sights. We patterned multiple shells from 4 or 5 different companies in 4,5 and 6 shot sizes until each of us found a load our gun liked best. Mr big? He fired two shots and quit. Couldn't stand anymore. Dismiss this as an isolated case if you like but I've seen it time and time again.

Quote
, maybe they are in a no fire zone. Secret papers sent to me by a special envoy revealed they had a few bean
fields & a couple of powerline right of ways in undisclosed locations.

George break out the "Thinks He's Funny but Isn't Detector"

Holy crap Sam it's reading off the scale.

Damn, call the lame @$$ psuedo comedian patrol George. Tell them to bring a crowbar, a colonoscope, an enema bucket, a flashlight and a wash tub full of KY jelly. I think we can find this guys funny bone but we have to get his head out of there first.




Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #67 on: August 08, 2006, 08:20:48 AM »
Todd1700,
I am not the one trying to sell a mute point here, you are. I really don't care if I don't have any credibility with you.  :P

Now to reply to your answers in the order you listed.

1) If you choose your bullets correctly, they can be used for both short and long range.
2) I practice with the bullets I use for hunting, despite the cost. Also if you want to just get in trigger time you can use other bullets for trigger time. One does not have to shot premium bullets all the time at the range. Once I get my gun sighted in for my hunting load, no matter the bullets I use for trigger time , I don't make any adjustments to my scope. Before I go hunting I do a final check of my guns with the ammo I intend to hunt with.
3) Would you care to join me on the shooting range and see if you can outshoot me with you standard rifle, while I use my 300 Win Mag? No flinch here.
4) I regularly shot my 416 Rigby, 300 Win Mag, 338 Win Mag and 45-70's. I also shoot a lot with my 460 Mag, and 500 Mag handguns. Sure there are some people that are recoil sensitive and even a 30-06 bothers them.

Sorry to say, it just sounds like you don't like Magnum rifles or premium bullets and think all of us should agree with your thinking.
Just for the record, I have seen a lot of guys use 300 Win Mag's on deer, have you ever been to Canada and seen the size of them Whitetail?
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Offline The Sodbuster

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #68 on: August 08, 2006, 11:31:53 AM »
Going back to the original post, I'd say the trend is here to stay.  Based on my observations, I'd say gunmakers pursue two lines of thought in order to sell guns: 1. Our guns are the most accurate; and 2. Our guns shoot magnums that'll reach out and touch that critter you've just spent thousands of dollars on and traveled halfway across the continent to kill.

As someone already lucidly pointed out, gunmakers are still selling their share of .270s, .308s and .30-06s.  But Remington's 7mm magnum is awfully popular, and the newer WSMs, WSSMs and SAUMs all end in "Magnum".  Weatherby, Dakota, and Lazzeroni sell their share of rifles chambered in their own proprietary magnums for those who don't think WSMs or the 7mm mag are "magnum enough". 

Ease of handling, balance and weight, reliability, smoothness of action, quality bedding, and trigger are all very important.  But I guess you can sell more guns by touting their accuracy and power (or add "tactical" to the model name).

Having said that, I would also argue that a number of standard cartridges would qualify as magnums.  These include .243 Winchester, .25-06 and 6mm rem.  All are based off cases originally designed for much larger bullets.  I'm not saying there's anything wrong with them.  Heck, I don't care what other people choose to shoot.  If you want the biggest, fastest round out there, knock yourself out.  I got a .257 Weatherby magnum a few years ago.  I've shot 2 deer with it; one about 60 yards away, the other about 100 yards.  Certainly didn't need a magnum for either shot, but I really like that rifle.  It's accurate, and I like the way the raised cheekpiece and monte carlo stock fit.

Offline dukkillr

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #69 on: August 08, 2006, 11:41:38 AM »
he won't believe me anyway, but:

I shot a nice kansas buck with a 300 mag a couple of years ago.  I shot 180 gr winchester failsafes (because those are the bullets I had recently used on a successful elk hunt).  I did not notice any difference in meat damage vs. my 30-06 or 270.  Magnum haters will have you believe that the whole exit side of the deer will be missing, but it's not.  It's a 30 caliber bullet and it makes about the same hole as other 30 caliber bullets.  "Deer waste" is not a realistic problem.  Besides, among the guys I hunt with, the guys who consistently waste the most deer are the open sighted 30-30 and slug guys.  They often end up shooting their deer sub-optimally and have to shoot them again.  I don't preach to them, nor do I care particularly, but that's been my experience.

The truth is that the haters will never change their opinion.  They also don't believe you are entitle to yours.  They'll draw something to the extreme end and say "well just use .50 bmg for deer then" and feel like they've convinced people.  Who cares?  They don't affect what I do.  I sleep fine at night, not thinking about their angry, uninformed, obstructionist opinions. 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #70 on: August 08, 2006, 12:10:30 PM »
he won't believe me anyway, but:

I shot a nice kansas buck with a 300 mag a couple of years ago.  I shot 180 gr winchester failsafes (because those are the bullets I had recently used on a successful elk hunt).  I did not notice any difference in meat damage vs. my 30-06 or 270.  Magnum haters will have you believe that the whole exit side of the deer will be missing, but it's not.  It's a 30 caliber bullet and it makes about the same hole as other 30 caliber bullets.  "Deer waste" is not a realistic problem.  Besides, among the guys I hunt with, the guys who consistently waste the most deer are the open sighted 30-30 and slug guys.  They often end up shooting their deer sub-optimally and have to shoot them again.  I don't preach to them, nor do I care particularly, but that's been my experience.

The truth is that the haters will never change their opinion.  They also don't believe you are entitle to yours.  They'll draw something to the extreme end and say "well just use .50 bmg for deer then" and feel like they've convinced people.  Who cares?  They don't affect what I do.  I sleep fine at night, not thinking about their angry, uninformed, obstructionist opinions. 


I got a chuckle out of your post, I sleep very well also. Often I dream of my big Magnums...LOL :D ;D
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #71 on: August 08, 2006, 03:33:08 PM »
he won't believe me anyway, but:

I shot a nice kansas buck with a 300 mag a couple of years ago.  I shot 180 gr winchester failsafes (because those are the bullets I had recently used on a successful elk hunt).  I did not notice any difference in meat damage vs. my 30-06 or 270.  Magnum haters will have you believe that the whole exit side of the deer will be missing, but it's not.  It's a 30 caliber bullet and it makes about the same hole as other 30 caliber bullets.  "Deer waste" is not a realistic problem.  Besides, among the guys I hunt with, the guys who consistently waste the most deer are the open sighted 30-30 and slug guys.  They often end up shooting their deer sub-optimally and have to shoot them again.  I don't preach to them, nor do I care particularly, but that's been my experience.

The truth is that the haters will never change their opinion.  They also don't believe you are entitle to yours.  They'll draw something to the extreme end and say "well just use .50 bmg for deer then" and feel like they've convinced people.  Who cares?  They don't affect what I do.  I sleep fine at night, not thinking about their angry, uninformed, obstructionist opinions.

 

Very good post & right on target.
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #72 on: August 08, 2006, 03:47:37 PM »
You accuse me of trying to be funny, no I am showing just one of your contradictions, first it is allmost all woods & then you tell us about the clearcuts on just the land you hunt, yes we allready knew there are fields, pastures & phone right of ways all over AL.

And then you try to be funny but failed, your posts as Redhawk said is all about trying to impose you limited reasoning on us & who cares. The people that I hunt with are confident & are not worried what others use, people who actually know what they are doing are like that.
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Offline BlackWolf

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #73 on: August 08, 2006, 04:09:59 PM »
I have to say, I don't own a magnum (other than a 12 gauge 3 1/2 inch mag and a .357 magnum which doesn't remotely count) and don't plan on owning a magnum rifle anytime soon (though I do have a fondness in my heart for the 257 weatherby magnum). 

With all that said, why would anyone care if someone else shoots a magnum of any kind?  I see no moral argument against using a faster cartridge what-so-ever.  I'll go a step farther, the only argument I've seen against magnums so far is that

1: They aren't needed because most shots made at game are well within the standard caliber's realm
2: They can cause a flinch and many hunters don't shoot as accurately as they possibly could due to the flinch

Who gives a rat's behind?

I've never seen a deer too dead yet because the range was inside of where a magnum hunter should be shooting.  And for #2, heck standard caliber hunters should love this - if guys really flinch as bad as stated in some of the posts that I've read, theres no way that they'll hit a deer at any range so that leaves more game for the standard caliber hunters!

Bottom line, don't worry about what anyone else is shooting- Buy the gun that you want, shoot it often and shoot it well.  I'll stick with my .270 (and new .358 BLR!!!!) but I don't have any problem hunting next to the guy who's shooting a .30-378 and noone else should either. 


Offline Cheesehead

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short
« Reply #74 on: August 08, 2006, 04:14:13 PM »
I find the short mags interesting. I would like a 325 or a 300 short mag in an ultra lite short action rifle. Lots of fire power in a small light package. Maybe the Browning TI. I wish there was a 35 short mag. Maybe a good idea for a wild cat.

Cheese
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #75 on: August 08, 2006, 04:52:18 PM »
I have to say, I don't own a magnum (other than a 12 gauge 3 1/2 inch mag and a .357 magnum which doesn't remotely count) and don't plan on owning a magnum rifle anytime soon (though I do have a fondness in my heart for the 257 weatherby magnum). 

With all that said, why would anyone care if someone else shoots a magnum of any kind?  I see no moral argument against using a faster cartridge what-so-ever.  I'll go a step farther, the only argument I've seen against magnums so far is that

1: They aren't needed because most shots made at game are well within the standard caliber's realm
2: They can cause a flinch and many hunters don't shoot as accurately as they possibly could due to the flinch

Who gives a rat's behind?

I've never seen a deer too dead yet because the range was inside of where a magnum hunter should be shooting.  And for #2, heck standard caliber hunters should love this - if guys really flinch as bad as stated in some of the posts that I've read, theres no way that they'll hit a deer at any range so that leaves more game for the standard caliber hunters!

Bottom line, don't worry about what anyone else is shooting- Buy the gun that you want, shoot it often and shoot it well.  I'll stick with my .270 (and new .358 BLR!!!!) but I don't have any problem hunting next to the guy who's shooting a .30-378 and noone else should either. 



Yes, that is what some of us have been saying all along. Fortunately, alot of std. round users have a common sense approach such as yours & all is good, but there are some mag. haters out there that will have none of that, for reasons only important to them.
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Offline jdt48653

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #76 on: August 08, 2006, 05:13:45 PM »
i love all guns,my personal favorite for deer is my 264 win MAG,
or
243
6.5x55
even my 300 weatherby
12 ga
10 ga MAG
and my
30/30

Offline handirifle

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #77 on: August 08, 2006, 05:23:23 PM »
An ex boyfriend of my daughters, hunts everything with only one gun and one caliber.  The 375 H&H.  Is it overkill for deer? Maybe, but dead is dead.  He doesn't flinch, and he kills deer.  He bought it cause someday, he wants to hunt something bigger.  Do I ?  Not with his rifle, but he can shoot it so who cares?

Is it wrong for some guys to drive a Dodge tourbo deisel and others to drive a 4 cyl Nissan?  Nope, whatever floats your boat.

I've seen the flinchers and I've seen the marksmen.  One of my hunting buddies thought he'd "upgrade" from his '06 to a 7 MM Mag.  He flinches a LOT.  He was grouping about 5" at the range from the bench.  Kept blaming the "new" rifle.  I'm left handed.  I shot his right hand rifle, right handed, cause I didn't want to screw up MY shoulder, and got 1.5" or less with 6 shots.  Like I told him, it wasn't the gun.

I think he went back to the '06, but then there is the other guy I met at the range shooting his TC Encore in "416 Rigby" of all things.  Getting ready for elk???

He was smart and used a lead sled for a rest.  Some like it hot, others do not.  I'm a middle of the road guy, myself, but I won't blame or flame the magnum, till I see the guy shoot it.

Just like a criminal, it's not the gun, it's the user.  Not everyone WANTS to sneak close, some like the marksmanship challenge of a long shot.

By the way, compared to a 250-3000 Savage, the 26-06 IS a magnum.  Just wasn't named so!  I bet that 250 Savage will kill a deer just as dead, and just as far, if you know the holdover.  It's ALL in the mind of the shooter.

Lots of guys I know like to hunt deer with a 45-70, not a magnum, but it has lots of recoil and lots of power.

End result

WHO CARES!!!
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Offline sniperVLS

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #78 on: August 08, 2006, 05:35:09 PM »
An ex boyfriend of my daughters, hunts everything with only one gun and one caliber.  The 375 H&H.  Is it overkill for deer? Maybe, but dead is dead.  He doesn't flinch, and he kills deer.  He bought it cause someday, he wants to hunt something bigger.  Do I ?  Not with his rifle, but he can shoot it so who cares?

Is it wrong for some guys to drive a Dodge tourbo deisel and others to drive a 4 cyl Nissan?  Nope, whatever floats your boat.

I've seen the flinchers and I've seen the marksmen.  One of my hunting buddies thought he'd "upgrade" from his '06 to a 7 MM Mag.  He flinches a LOT.  He was grouping about 5" at the range from the bench.  Kept blaming the "new" rifle.  I'm left handed.  I shot his right hand rifle, right handed, cause I didn't want to screw up MY shoulder, and got 1.5" or less with 6 shots.  Like I told him, it wasn't the gun.

I think he went back to the '06, but then there is the other guy I met at the range shooting his TC Encore in "416 Rigby" of all things.  Getting ready for elk???

He was smart and used a lead sled for a rest.  Some like it hot, others do not.  I'm a middle of the road guy, myself, but I won't blame or flame the magnum, till I see the guy shoot it.

Just like a criminal, it's not the gun, it's the user.  Not everyone WANTS to sneak close, some like the marksmanship challenge of a long shot.

By the way, compared to a 250-3000 Savage, the 26-06 IS a magnum.  Just wasn't named so!  I bet that 250 Savage will kill a deer just as dead, and just as far, if you know the holdover.  It's ALL in the mind of the shooter.

Lots of guys I know like to hunt deer with a 45-70, not a magnum, but it has lots of recoil and lots of power.

End result

WHO CARES!!!

Exactly!  ;)

Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #79 on: August 08, 2006, 05:52:17 PM »
Quote from: Coyote Hunter

I guess its wrong for those folks to buy a magnum for the elk and then get some practical experience with it at home?
Quote from: Todd1700
Did you even read my initial post or in your zeal to defend shooting ground squirrels with a 416 Rigby did you just skip over most of it? I clearly state that shooting Elk sized animals is a perfectly legit reason to get a magnum.

Yes, I read your initial post, and all your others – in their entirety.  If someone wants to shoot ground squirrels with a .416 that’s quite all right by me, and none of my business, but if you reread my posts you’ll see I never mentioned either.  My question was with regard to the propriety of a person from Alabama buying a rifle for elk and then getting practical experience with it by hunting Alabama deer.  I would contend that’s a very reasonable thing to do.  I would also contend that it’s a very reasonable for a person to buy and use a magnum simply because they want to.  The validity of that point seems to elude you completely.

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
Granddad never used his combine to harvest the sweet corn - but the plow and disc and harrow he used to prepare the ground for Grandma's garden were the same ones he used out in the corn and bean fields.
Quote from: Todd1700
Yeah but he had a crop field too huh? I'm sure he wouldn't have bought one for a backyard garden. Well, on second thought he was kin to you so maybe so.

I’ll take your ad hominem attack as your tacit admission that you have lost the logical argument.


Quote from: Coyote Hunter

One might even agree - on "average".   But what about shooting whitetail over croplands?  Are you suggesting that doesn't happen in Alabama?
Quote from: Todd1700
Sure and there's a plethora of standard calibers that will handle it just as well anything. Look up the bullet drop difference between a 270 with a 130 grain bullet and a 300 WM with a 150 grain bullet out to 350 yards. Not enough difference to wipe your butt with. But if the 270 isn't flat enough for you then check out what a 25-06 with 100 grain bullets will do. Recoil will be tame compared to the 300 mag and thus much more conducive to accurate shooting. The deer will be just as dead. In fact with the recoil induced flinch I see most magnumitis victoms suffering from their number of long range vital zone hits would probably increase dramatically with a milder round. I had to take over sighting in one guys 300 WSM at the range last year because he could get a shot on a sheet of paper at 100 yards. Guy was so gun shy that he was snatching his whole head out from behind the scope. I sighted it in for him but dared to suggest that perhaps a milder round would suit him better. Nope, he wouldn't hear of it. He wanted something that would really lay the smack down on them he said. Sweet Jesus!

The fact that there is “a plethora of standard calibers” that will do the job on Alabama deer does not mean it is wrong to use a magnum any more than the plethora of magnums makes it wrong to use a non-magnum on Colorado elk.  You seem to be focused on comparing trajectory, but my concern would be more along the lines of retained energy. 

Take two loads out of Nosler’s 5th – a .270Win/130g Partition @ 3158fps and a .300 Win Mag/150g Partition @ 3390fps.  When individually zeroed for Maximum Point Blank Range for a 6” diameter target, the .270 drops 10” at 380 yards while the .300 Win Mag drops 10” at 400 yards – hardly a difference to worry about.  On the other hand, the .270 Win load drops below 2000fpe at 240 yards while the .300 Win Mag load carries 2000fpe out to 405 yards.  If you get a poor hit at 400 yards and the deer takes off leaving you with a Texas Heart Shot or nothing, I’d rather have the .300 and the heavier bullet, thank you.  Actually, I’d rather have a 180g leaving the barrel at 3160fps, even though the drop would be 2” greater, as it carries 2000fpe out past 500 yards.

Not everyone is as recoil shy as you seem to be and many people can actually shoot magnums quite well.  My 7mm Mag consistently shoots under an inch at 100 yards, as does my .300 Win Mag with the right loads.  My buddy shot a .4” last time we checked his 7mm Mag.  And I’ve seen guys shoot ragged one-hole groups with their .338’s.  My .45-70 350g North Fork load at 2183fps, while not a “magnum” per se, generates about 43 foot-pounds of recoil or about 2.3 times what your .270Win/130g load would generate.  Nevertheless, I can put 4 shots into 1.2” at 100 yards.  I used that load to take a forkhorn mule deer at 197 lasered yards and a 6x6 bull elk at 213 lasered yards.  But of course, with all that recoil to contend with, I can’t shoot it for crap.


Quote from: Coyote Hunter
So, Todd1700 - please enlighten us - what SHOULD we be using for those Alabama deer?  What do YOU use?
Quote from: Todd1700
Certainly nothing larger than a 30-06. I currently use either a 25-06 or a 7mm-08. We do have a few large clear cuts on our land and I have never had to pass on a deer with either that I could have gotten with a magnum. Truth is that either a 30-06, 280, 270,  7mm-08 or a 25-06 will kill deer farther out there than the vast, vast, vast, majority of people have any business attempting a shot anyway.

A .30-06?  Why put up with all that recoil when a 7mm Mag will generate LESS recoil?  For that matter, I can shoot my .30-30 well enough to reliably and cleanly take deer out to 250 yards with ease, and 300 yards if need be.  And the .30-30 will do it with half the recoil of a .30-06.

Frankly, I’m not interested in what the “vast, vast, vast, majority of people have any business attempting” as not one of those people will ever take a shot for me.  I use my magnums and non-magnums alike to shoot clay pigeons at 300 yards (and further) and there are any number of people at my club who shoot better than I.  While there are some people that can’t hit paper at 100 yards, there are many, many others who are not so afflicted.

That said, I have absolutely no problem with people using a non-magnum if that’s what turns their crank.    My own safe has more non-magnums than magnums.

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
And its never wrong to use what others might consider "too much gun" if that's what pleases the shooter.
Quote from: Todd1700
Then a 155 mm howitzer is good to go as a deer round for you? No such thing as too big?

A 155mm is not a person firearm and wouldn’t be legal in any state that I know of.  That said, how about a 12-pound Mountain Howitzer?  It wouldn’t be my choice, but I have no problem with that fact that it has been done...
http://www.buckstix.com/howitzer.htm





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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #80 on: August 08, 2006, 10:33:56 PM »
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I really don't care if I don't have any credibility with you. 

By god we agree on one thing.

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3) Would you care to join me on the shooting range and see if you can outshoot me with you standard rifle, while I use my 300 Win Mag? No flinch here

Ooooh, You wouldn't want to go there as more than a few challengers have discovered.

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I have seen a lot of guys use 300 Win Mag's on deer, have you ever been to Canada and seen the size of them Whitetail?

Yep, but Canada is hell and gone north of Alabama.

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Sorry to say, it just sounds like you don't like Magnum rifles or premium bullets and think all of us should agree with your thinking.

No I just have an opinion and don't follow a herd mentallity. By all means use what you like. Have I shown up at any of your houses or hunting clubs with a stop using a magnum picket sign? Nope. This is America, by all means be as overgunned as you like. But this is an internet discussion forum. A place to voice opinions. Good lord what a boring @$$ place it would be if we answered every question with, "Use whatever you like as long as it's legal." "Sorry we can't be more helpful and voice a specific opinion but somebody might not agree and get offended." Whew!! Simmer down boys that kinda debating is too hot for me. I bet you guys are some real party cossacks in person.  ::)

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The truth is that the haters will never change their opinion.  They also don't believe you are entitle to yours.

Where have I say you don't have the right to an opinion? Now you are just making s##t up.

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Who gives a rat's behind?

Then why click on this thread?????

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If someone wants to shoot ground squirrels with a .416 that’s quite all right by me, and none of my business,

Of course it's none of our business nor have I tried to debate that point. Seems to be however the only one you guys can make.

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I’ll take your ad hominem attack as your tacit admission that you have lost the logical argument.

Wait, did I miss it. When did you make a logical argument?

Quote
You seem to be focused on comparing trajectory, but my concern would be more along the lines of retained energy. 

Retained energy of about 1000 or more foot pounds is more than enough to kill any whitetail that ever lived. Some even say as low as 800 ft lbs is good to go.  Look at the ranges in which even standard rounds retain that much energy and you will see that it's usually well beyond the range 95 percent of the hunters in America should dare a shoot at a whitetail anyway. Naturally there are some older very mild rounds like the 30-30, 35 rem, that are not long range rounds. But check out the range at which a 270 or 30-06 drop under that power level. It's waaay out there.

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Not everyone is as recoil shy as you seem to be

I am not recoil shy in the least but far too many magnuitis victims are. I have been called apon to help sight in more than a few buddies and aquaintances whizz bang super duper ultra mags. (usually because they couldn't shoot them consistently enough to sight them in properly) I can shoot them and all rifles quite well. Trust me. (which is why I'm often asked to help) I just see no need for them for the task at hand. I guess if you just like a louder bang and burning more powder. The deer aren't any more dead.

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Nevertheless, I can put 4 shots into 1.2” at 100 yards.

Then gee obviously you aren't included in the group of magnum flinchers I spoke of are you? So what are you so defensive about? Show me where I said nobody can shoot a large magnum well. In fact I think that I quite clearly stated that some people can shoot them quite well. Obviously you're one of those folks huh? Hell, I can shoot them fine although I confess the largest I have ever sighted in was a 375 H&H.

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A .30-06?  Why put up with all that recoil when a 7mm Mag will generate LESS recoil?

I don't know what manual you are reading but most 7mm mags outkick a 30-06. Though 7mm mags are the mildest of the big mags.

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While there are some people that can’t hit paper at 100 yards, there are many, many others who are not so afflicted.

Who said otherwise? Again if what I said doesn't apply to you then why are you pissed off? Congrats you're one of the exceptions to the rule. Enjoy it.





Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #81 on: August 09, 2006, 01:04:59 AM »
I give up, I had better intellectual conversations with my 2 year old son 16 years ago.  ;D
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #82 on: August 09, 2006, 02:58:57 AM »
I give up, I had better intellectual conversations with my 2 year old son 16 years ago.  ;D

Agreed. 
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Offline Coyote Hunter

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #83 on: August 09, 2006, 04:06:32 AM »
Quote from: Coyote Hunter
I’ll take your ad hominem attack as your tacit admission that you have lost the logical argument.

Quote from: Todd1700
Wait, did I miss it. When did you make a logical argument?

You prove my point.

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
You seem to be focused on comparing trajectory, but my concern would be more along the lines of retained energy. 

Quote from: Todd1700
Retained energy of about 1000 or more foot pounds is more than enough to kill any whitetail that ever lived. Some even say as low as 800 ft lbs is good to go.  Look at the ranges in which even standard rounds retain that much energy and you will see that it's usually well beyond the range 95 percent of the hunters in America should dare a shoot at a whitetail anyway. Naturally there are some older very mild rounds like the 30-30, 35 rem, that are not long range rounds. But check out the range at which a 270 or 30-06 drop under that power level. It's waaay out there.

I am well aware that many deer have been taken with well under 1000 foot-ponds of energy, including many with an anemic .22LR.  But I was specifically talking about a Texas Heart Shot on a wounded deer where the bullet may have to pass through 2-3 feet of hide, bone, deer flesh and wet green stuff to hit the vitals.  My preference would be the higher bullet weight and energy levels.  You have not shown how such a choice would be wrong.

By the way, I’m not interested in what “95 percent of the hunters in America” can do, but rather the 0.00001% or so that represents what a particular individual hunter can do.

By the way, if 800 foot-pounds is “good to go”, my .30-30 is a 300-yard deer rifle.  I can consistently hit a kill zone sized gong at that range, but no thanks – I’ll reach for something else instead.

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
Not everyone is as recoil shy as you seem to be

Quote from: Todd1700
I am not recoil shy in the least but far too many magnuitis victims are. I have been called apon to help sight in more than a few buddies and aquaintances whizz bang super duper ultra mags. (usually because they couldn't shoot them consistently enough to sight them in properly) I can shoot them and all rifles quite well. Trust me. (which is why I'm often asked to help) I just see no need for them for the task at hand. I guess if you just like a louder bang and burning more powder. The deer aren't any more dead.

Half your argument is about how recoil affects accuracy, now you admit it’s not an issue for some hunters including yourself.

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
Nevertheless, I can put 4 shots into 1.2” at 100 yards.

Quote from: Todd1700
Then gee obviously you aren't included in the group of magnum flinchers I spoke of are you? So what are you so defensive about? Show me where I said nobody can shoot a large magnum well. In fact I think that I quite clearly stated that some people can shoot them quite well. Obviously you're one of those folks huh? Hell, I can shoot them fine although I confess the largest I have ever sighted in was a 375 H&H.

My point, which you seem to have missed, is that there are a large number of shooters out there who handle magnum recoil quite well.  Including yourself, apparently. 

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
A .30-06?  Why put up with all that recoil when a 7mm Mag will generate LESS recoil?
Quote from: Todd1700
I don't know what manual you are reading but most 7mm mags outkick a 30-06. Though 7mm mags are the mildest of the big mags.
You are correct – I should have stated that “a 7mm Mag CAN generate less recoil”.  The 160g 7mm Mag loads I’ve used for over 20 years do in fact generate less recoil than many.30-06 loads with bullets of similar sectional density (180g).

Quote from: Coyote Hunter
While there are some people that can’t hit paper at 100 yards, there are many, many others who are not so afflicted.

Quote from: Todd1700
Who said otherwise? Again if what I said doesn't apply to you then why are you pissed off? Congrats you're one of the exceptions to the rule. Enjoy it.

Again, half your argument is that people don’t shoot magnums well.  The exceptions to your claim are not “few” but “many”, and for those in the “many” category your argument holds no water.

The other half of your argument is that magnum power is not needed, a point with which I agree in most cases – but you have failed to show how using magnums is wrong.





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Offline S.S.

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #84 on: August 09, 2006, 07:52:43 AM »
OK, OK , I have the solution!
Where did the term MAGNUM come from ?
If my memory serves, It was a very large Cup for consuming
large quantities of Alcohol without having to get up and refill
your glass so often. My suggestion is, EVERYBODY have a couple of those
and then maybe we will all get along a little better !
come on folks, let us go forth, use a MAGNUM for what it was
truely intended for and drink ourselves BLIND !!!!
 
I'm not dunk osifer , weally ! And I can shee jush fine to Dive... :P
Shorry about your shoo, I NEVER COULD PEE STRAIGHT !  ;D
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Offline Skeptic10787

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #85 on: August 09, 2006, 11:01:26 AM »
Kids, (especially Todd), grow up. It's a silly topic. With the exception of grossly inadequate and grossly overkill, anyone can use whatever round he/she can shoot accurately. Personally, I have two deer rifles... a 25-06 which is my primary whitetail rifle, and a 30-06 SS which is my bad weather and elk rifle. I can shoot both accurately within reasonable ranges. Both can kill the intended game farther than I can shoot accurately. Therefore, they are fine for me.
Sumner brought up a very good point. MAGNUM is a just a name. There are several standard calibers that, by definition, are also magnum (if you accept that the definition is 3000fps and over)... just not with that name. It's more the marketing hype than anything else.
My main grudge with the magnums is having to share a shooting range with them. Even worse when they have a brake.

Offline Cement Man

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #86 on: August 09, 2006, 03:22:48 PM »
Can't help it - gotta say it.........  I learned a long time ago from "discussing" things with my wife.  WHAT is right is usually pretty easy to figure out. WHO is right - well, that issue just never seems to get settled.   :) 
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Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #87 on: August 09, 2006, 03:43:10 PM »
Quote
I give up, I had better intellectual conversations with my 2 year old son 16 years ago. 

I'm not shocked. From what I've read here I'm sure most 2 year olds are a worthy opponent for you.


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.  But I was specifically talking about a Texas Heart Shot on a wounded deer where the bullet may have to pass through 2-3 feet of hide, bone, deer flesh and wet green stuff to hit the vitals. 

If you want 2-3 ft of penetration on deer from any angle such as the scenario you describe then that will be far more affected by bullet type than cartridge size. Armed with a bullet designed for such performance there are again numerous standard calibers that will serve you well.

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By the way, I’m not interested in what “95 percent of the hunters in America” can do, but rather the 0.00001% or so that represents what a particular individual hunter can do.

Then I have no idea what you are pissed about. From my vantage point here is how your and several other posters responces read out.

Dear Todd1700,

     Here are 6 reasons that I am not one of the overgunned, no shooting yahoo's of which you spoke. So, Since your comments had absolutely nothing to do with me and you clearly left open room for execptions like myself in everything you said I am therefore of course immensely pissed that you said them. I just can't figure out why.

Signed, Confusingly Pissed Off in Seattle

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Half your argument is about how recoil affects accuracy, now you admit it’s not an issue for some hunters including yourself.

But it is for many and yet most of those folks are using waaay too much gun. I see it every day.

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The exceptions to your claim are not “few” but “many”, and for those in the “many” category your argument holds no water.

Now you're just haggling over price so to speak. Many is a relative word. If say 20 percent of the people using a big mag shoot it well enough to enjoy the extreme long range advantages that it can offer then in a nation with as many hunters as we have that's still a sizable number of people. Still I contend that far more can't and thus the shooters are badly outnumbered.

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but you have failed to show how using magnums is wrong.

I think I have shown how they're too much gun for the task laid out in my early posts, ie shooting smallish deer at relatively short ranges. Wrong however is a vague term. Wrong in what sense? legally? Morally? Don't think I even tried to make that case.

It wouldn't be illegal or immoral to nail roofing tacks with a 12 lb sledge hammer. It's just more way hammer than you need for the task at hand.

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Where did the term MAGNUM come from ?
If my memory serves, It was a very large Cup for consuming
large quantities of Alcohol without having to get up and refill
your glass so often.

It was first coined to describe extra large bottles of champagne.


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Kids, (especially Todd),

I'm forty. So if you are calling me kid I take that to mean you are about 60?

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I have two deer rifles... a 25-06 which is my primary whitetail rifle, and a 30-06 SS which is my bad weather and elk rifle. I can shoot both accurately within reasonable ranges. Both can kill the intended game farther than I can shoot accurately.

A 30-06 with a well constructed 180 gr bullet will dispatch anything in the lower 48 and most things on the planet. And the 25-06 is a nice mild deer round. I use it often myself.

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My main grudge with the magnums is having to share a shooting range with them. Even worse when they have a brake.

Hmmmmm, why would someone need to have a brake installed on a magnum rifle? I wonder. Naaa, couldn't be because the recoil is kicking their @$$. The guys on this board have blasted me for even suggesting that more than one or two people nationwide are affected by such things.



















Offline Todd1700

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #88 on: August 09, 2006, 04:00:05 PM »
Good article below


                                                         Magnumitis
                                                           by Mike Moen
 


A few years ago,  an old-timer I know was cleaning out his garage and came across a couple of boxes of old Field and Stream and American Rifleman magazines that he had earmarked for the trash.  Since, it seems, that I am always looking to add more clutter to my life, I told him I would take them off his hands.  He agreed and I was the proud owner of a hundred or so periodicals that were decades out of date.  After convincing my wife that it is not technically dumpster diving until the objects are actually in the dumpster, I set off to page through my “new” resources.   I think it’s interesting to read about guns and hunting tales from long ago, and compare it to the way things are today.  After a few magazines, I noticed that the idea of what is a “powerful” rifle has changed over the years.  One article on elk hunting stated that the 30-06 is about perfect but the stiff recoil may be too much for some, and suggested something along the lines of a 270 would be more appropriate for most people.  By contrast, today many people consider the ‘06 a starting point for elk rounds and one famous gun writer came under fire recently by implying that the 270 may not be an appropriate choice for elk in many instances.

 
Under the right circumstances the  last three can be enough gun for most North American game, however these are not popular Magnumitis choices
 
So what gives?  Has our quarry developed  armor over the years, or were previous generations just plain wrong.  Of course the answer is neither and next season more animals will fall to the old ‘06 than any other round.  But, flipping through a gun magazine today, it doesn’t take long to realize that the idea of what is “powerful” and “the perfect round” has changed.  While there are few people who would call the 30-06 inadequate for elk, the image of the perfect elk round has evolved into the .30 to .338 caliber magnum class.  I believe that many writers and hunters, whether they know it or not, suffer from at least a small case of what I will unscientifically call Magnumitis.  The main symptom of Magnumitis is the belief that somehow a magnum round is always needed to perform a task that a standard round is very capable of.  In some rare cases the less attractive symptoms of puffing up one’s chest  while bragging about the big guns they shoot, and looking down their noses at little folk who only use weak standard rounds, can also be observed.     

 
It shouldn’t be surprising that many of us suffer from this ailment to some extent or another.  Over the last few years gun and ammunition manufacturers have flooded the market with new products that have the word magnum attached to them.  Whether it’s an ultra, short, standard or whatever, magnums are definitely the talk of the town.  Now don’t get me wrong, I‘m not here to bash magnums.  A few call my gun safe home, and there are definitely times when a magnum outshines a more standard round.  The interest and variety that has been pumped into the shooting industry over the last few years by the new magnums has been wonderful and the large pool of new rounds to choose from benefits everyone.  No matter what you think of the large gun manufacturers, there is no denying that they are very effective in promoting their products.   Gallons of ink have been spilled on advertising and articles in magazines, and the new wiz bang magnums have been the special guests on many hunting shows.  This has had the effect of creating a large group of hunters who believe that the only way to truly kill an animal is to do it with some type of magnum.

 
The truth is that most people don’t have either the skill or the necessity  to take advantage of what magnum rounds offer.  Remington likes to boast about how their 300 Ultra Mag matches the tight string trajectory of the legendarily flat shooting 22-250, but does so with a bullet three times heavier.  While this is true, the advantage of this round over the standard 30-06 with the same bullet is not realized until shots over  250 yards are required.  Even when hunting in most areas of the west, well over 75% of shooting opportunities at game will be under 250 yards.  When the really long shots do present themselves, a flat shooting magnum in the hands of a skilled shooter can definitely be an advantage, but most hunters don’t practice enough to truly squeeze out all of the potential. The other benefit a magnum round provides is higher down range energy or as some people say “more punch”.  The question is though, how much more “punch” does a hunter need?  I am fairly certain that there is not a whitetail deer alive that could tell the difference in a shoulder shot from a 7mm-08 at 300 yards over a shot from a 7mm Remington Magnum with the same bullet.  The result would be same, a freezer full of venison, even though the 08 shows up with 25% less energy.  The extra just isn’t needed.

 
I should probably  pause here and say that I believe being infected with Magnumitis is not necessarily a bad thing.   Just last fall I shot a little six point whitetail at 15 yards with a 7mm Magnum.  This was clearly more gun than needed, and an obvious sign of  Magnumitis.  The outcome, however was perfect, the buck never knew what hit him, and my family got to enjoy grilled backstraps for Easter dinner.  Magnum rounds carry extra baggage with them.  The ammunition is more expensive, magnum guns generally have longer actions, increased recoil can range from slight to down right painful, and  ammunition availability and selection, especially for the newer magnums, may not be as good as for some of the more tried and true standard rounds.  Perhaps the biggest drawback, though, is that some hunters believe that a magnum can somehow compensate for poor shooting skills or bad shot placement.  This of course  is not true.  A poorly hit deer with a magnum is a lot like a poorly hit deer with a standard round.  As with everything else, misguided confidence can get us in trouble.

So what should we do about Magnumitis?  As a whole, I guess it’s not really that bad of a problem.  It’s definitely not as bad as the opposite, or so-called Reverse Magnumitis.  This is where hunters use rounds that are not enough gun for a situation.  In some instances this affliction can border on unethical.  Fortunately for Magnumitis sufferers, this is never a problem.  Their search for more power with guns that would get a good grunt from Tim Allen make it certain that they will always show up with more gun than is needed.  Magnums do definitely get the job done, and there are many situations where they outperform the more meat and potatoes rounds.  Long range shots, and hunts after large or mean critters is what they were designed for and where they shine.  In the hands of a well practice shooter, they can also breed confidence to try different hunting situations such as a trip out west or maybe Alaska.

There is a reason that standard rounds like the 30-06 and 270 Winchester have been popular for decades - simply put, they work.  When this latest magnum craze dies down they will still be two of our most popular rounds.  This is of little concern to the hardcore Magnumitis sufferer.  Each fall he will take to the woods touting his 338 Ultra Mag, waiting for  a whitetail doe to walk past his stand, hoping that his magnum will be enough gun to get the job done. 
 
 


 

Offline Redhawk1

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Re: What do you all think about the magnum trend?
« Reply #89 on: August 09, 2006, 04:00:37 PM »
Ignore him and maybe he will just go away.
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