What do you all think about the magnum trend?

[R.W.Dale]

With factory ammo a 130 gr bullet from a 270 leaves the muzzle at about 3060 fps and that's only  if you have a 24 inch barrel. End result is that any impact past 20 yards and you are back under 3000 fps. At 100 yards you are most likely down to about 2700 fps.

Pretty much the same goes for a 25-06 using a 115 or 117 gr bullet. I personally use 117 grain Hornady interlocks in a 25-06 Tikka with a barrel just over 22 inches long so I doubt seriously that my muzzle velocity even starts out at 3000 fps. Probably closer to 2900. The exit holes I get are about the size of a quarter and meat damage is by no means severe.

 OH OK now I see Your choice in cartriges with magnum don't blow up deer with the correct bullet selection.But ours turns em it to pot roast.  Well guess what? The same thing applies to rounds like 300 wby. gee whiz who'ed a thunk it. But I guess you'ed already have already realized that, What with your half century of expertice in the field of ballistics and bullet degsin.

[Todd1700]

The same thing applies to rounds like 300 wby. gee whiz who'ed a thunk it.

Yeah but the bullet that you will have to use in that 300 Weatherby in order to get only a modest exit hole and moderate meat damage will cost about 3 times as much as standard bullets. Ever price Weatherby ammo? And at the end of the day most of the deer you shoot with it are gonna run just as far before they die as they would shot with a 7mm-08, 270, 30-06, etc, etc,. I just don't see the advantages of it on deer sized animals for the extra kick, muzzle blast and ear shattering noise you add to the equation. Elk, Moose, maybe but deer? Naaaaa. In fact I don't think there are any advantages for the average shooter. But it's your money, your shoulder, your retina and your hearing so knock yourself out.

[nomosendero]

Todd, you said in your last post that you don't have a place to practice over 400 yards, in the past I had the same problem & had about the same distance to shoot, but now some local farmers will let me practice in their fields & that is a long ways. And others like me don't have the practice limitations that you do, no biggiie, that's just the way it is.

As you said, you may not get those over 400 yard shots often, yet some of us do & as a matter of fact I did last year & will take that shot anytime, under those conditions & with my equipment it could have almost been called a chip shot.

You mentioned two things that tell me immediately that you are trying to discuss something that is out of your realm. Here is how I know this beyond a doubt.

(1) When a novice discusses long range shooting(not a novice shooter, but a novice long range shooter), the main thing they think about as a limiting factor is trajectory. This is NOT the main variable here, the WIND is big time. The wind will give you problems much more because the trajectory is easily plotted. The margin of error is greatly reduced with a long heavy bullet with a high BC. A 308cal.
200gr. Accubond has a BC of .588 as opposed to a 130gr. 270BT with a BC of .433 or a 100 gr 25cal. BT with a BC of .393 or 110Accubond with a BC of .418. The difference in wind drift between these bullets even with the 308 starting a little slower is huge after 400 yds. & the spread grows as range increases. As many here know, I use a 25-06AI on Antelope & Mule Deer, but I use custom high BC bullets for this reason.

(2) It was mentioned to shoot on out there would require a 4" holdover or so. This indicates the old Max. Pt. Bl. Range method taught by gun writers to keep occassional shooters from messing up. This reminds me of the old 8" tube crap which is the same thing. If your bullet falls below the tube it is too far supposedly & if you aim in the middle of the Deer you can hit it up close, which is not true in some cases as you illuded to. The form of sighting & shooting has no place for those who are good at long range shooting
& will not be used by anyone who has been taught properly. It is far better to have you zero set for about 250 yards & use mil-dots
or a reticle like the Leo. Varmit reticle or if you have time, click up if you have a good scope adjustments. Good rangefinders have changed this alot & make it more logical.

No need going into this again as we have already dealt with it in more detail right here:      http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,58321.o.html

And yes, after 350 yards, the high BC bullets fired at higher velocity start to show their stuff.

BTW, I don't eat Hot Dogs, I buy the better cuts, so this is something I have not worried about, but you have. Over time, I learn who I can accept at face value & who I can't, get over it, I already have.

[R.W.Dale]

Yeah but the bullet that you will have to use in that 300 Weatherby in order to get only a modest exit hole and moderate meat damage will cost about 3 times as much as standard bullets.

 NOPE All you need to do is use a bullet weighing at least 180 grns even cheap ones will do just fine. The last deer I killed with the 300 looked just like the deer I killed with my muzzleloader.

 As for the price of weatherby ammo Who cares I've never bought any factory ammo for it.

 I think the problem is some people only think magnums are for launching light bullets at insane velocities while the rest of have moved beyond that and realize that a magnum really shines at launching heavier bullets at the same speeds a STD chambering can launch lighter projectiles.

[Todd1700]

You mentioned two things that tell me immediately that you are trying to discuss something that is out of your realm

I am not an ultra long range shooter and I don't think that I have tried to BS anyone into thinking that I am. If you are and practice enough to shoot well at the ranges were a magnum cartridge starts to really outshine standard rounds then great. Where have I said that such people don't exist? Obviously such long range talent and hunting grounds open enough to use them are a legit reason to shoot more powerful rounds. As I have said a half a dozen times now, if my comments don't describe you then don't get pissed off. 

My point is simply that that combination of long range shooting skill and opportunity to use it are about as rare as a honest used car salesman in my neck of the woods. Yet the woods are full of people using 7mm Mags, 300 WSMs, 300 Win Mags, 300 Ultra Mags and God help us even 338 Mags. Why? We sure don't have deer that big down here and agriculture has been almost totally replaced by timber plantations down here so there is very little wide open country. In most cases it's simply because they have bought into the "Bigger is Always Better" rhetoric being sprayed around in todays gun and hunting rags. Rhetoric designed mostly to sell guns for magazine sponsors. I have had these guys (some of them good friends) proudly brag about how little their new whiz bang ultra mag drops at 400 yards despite the fact that I know there isn't a single spot on the land they hunt where a shot that far is even possible and that they have never killed anything that far away in their whole life. That's what I call magnumitis.

And yes, after 350 yards, the high BC bullets fired at higher velocity start to show their stuff.

Agreed, perhaps you just have more faith in the average hunters ability to take advantage of this fact out past 350 yards than I do. I am a bit of a pessimist.

[Todd1700]

I think the problem is some people only think magnums are for launching light bullets at insane velocities while the rest of have moved beyond that and realize that a magnum really shines at launching heavier bullets at the same speeds a STD chambering can launch lighter projectiles

Well in my initial post I think I listed hurling heavy bullets as one of the two reasons for a magnum. I simply contend that such heavy projectiles are better suited to large animals like elk or moose where penetration through thick hide and heavy bone is a concern. I can't imagine what the advantage of using 180 gr and heavier bullets on small southern whitetails would be.

[R.W.Dale]

I can't imagine what the advantage of using 180 gr and heavier bullets on small southern whitetails would be.

 Well for that matter what's the advantage of using a 25-06 on them VS a slower 308....  In that case why don't you shoot the 100grn load in your 25-06 you don't gain anything by shootin them with those 120 grainers.  You should just stop now because there is really NO diffrence between what you do and what you lambaste others for.

 I can't imagine the advantage of shooting deer with 150grn bullets.

I simply contend that such heavy projectiles are better suited to large animals like elk or moose

 WHY? Where is it written that thou shalt not shootith heavy projectilage. Trust me they work better than lighter bullets.

 I think that you are confused over the fact that none of your buddys can shoot straight. Reguardless of caliber.

 BTW how much HP is the engine in your truck rated for.

[nomosendero]

Todd, whether I have faith in the average hunter or not has no relevance when Mags are discussed for 2 reasons.
(1) I don't think the average hunter can utilize the range of the std. rounds like a 270 or a 7X57 either. So, to be consistant with that line of thinking then they should not use these rounds as well.

(2) Each person MUST know the ability & therefore the limitations of himself, the capabilities of the rifle & the round & factoring in the weather/enviormental conditions of THAT moment. And what the average guy can do has NOTHING to do with what MY choices are or the ranges I shoot & the
same should apply to your choices. This is what I have been saying from the beginning.

No, there is nothing to get pissed off about, at least at this point. I have bigger fish to fry than that, & as long as someone doesn't get on here & tell us all how far we can shoot, I am OK, because that argument is old & without foundation as the previous factors illustrate.

[Todd1700]

I can't imagine the advantage of shooting deer with 150grn bullets.

Flatter trajectory and they will actually expand on a 150 lb animal. Most 180 grain and heavier bullets are designed a little tougher due to the fact that they are more often used on larger game. This is true of bullets of even the same type. Often 180 grain bullets have a thicker copper jacket or a slightly harder lead alloy than the same bullet in a 140 or 150 grain weight. You can reach a point with small deer where you are just poking holes through them. Oh it will kill them but most people who try 180gr or heavier bullets down here only do it for one year. And usually refer to it henceforth as the year I became a better tracker.

[Coyote Hunter]

Now I'm really beggining to understand...not only does he dislike magnums...but he is a Premium bullet hater as well and this speaks volumes..

No, you are assuming too much. Premium bullets have their place. I think I even recomended them if you plan to take Texas heart shots earlier in this thread. (I however don't recomend such a thing unless it's on an already wounded deer as was the case in the scenario earlier in this thread)

Of course, you’d better have them loaded in the magazine if you’re going to take such a shot (a THS to stop a wounded animal).

My point was that by using these large mags at very short range where impact velocities are well over 3000 fps a lot of people are creating a need for expensive ultra tough bullets that normally should not exist. With impact velocities in the 2600 to 3000 fps range standard cup and core lead bullets are all you would ever need for our deer down here. I speak having killed somewhere around 80 to 90 in my lifetime with such bullets. So what these people end up with is a lot more recoil, a lot more muzzle blast, more ear splitting boom and for what? The bullets they eventually gravitate towards using to lessen the excess meat damge and prevent core jacket separation have to be so tough to hold together at these impact speeds that they don't expand any more or kill any faster than a standard rifle bullet. So IMHO whats the point?

Since impact velocities can be very close to muzzle velocity (a friend shot an elk that was standing under the same tree he was under), I’m much more comfortable using cup and core bullets where the muzzle velocity is 2800fps or less.  (Most people I know would consider muzzle velocities of 2800-2900fps maximum for cup and core bullets, but based on personal experience I tend to be a bit more conservative.)  Even if we use 3000fps for the cutoff, there are many non-magnum cartridges that will reach that velocity with a hunting weight bullet. 

Just a few factory loads:
.243 Winchester = WW 95g Ballistic Silvertip (3100fps), Federal 95g Ballistic Tip (3025fps)
.25-06 = Winchester 115g Ballistic Silvertip (3060fps), Federal 100g Ballistic Tip (3210fps)
.270 Winchester = Winchester 130g Ballistic Silvertip (3050fps), Federal 130g Ballistic Tip (3060fps)
.280 Remington = Winchester 140g Ballistic Silvertip (3040fps)
.30-06 = Winchester 125g PSP (3125fps)

If we threw in factory loads that went over 2950fps the list would be much longer and bullet weights would go up.

Here’s a representative list for handloaded cartridges (again using a 3000fps cutoff and Nosler 5th and Hodgdon 2004 Annual Manual as references):
.243 Winchester, up to 100g
.250 Savage, up to 100g
.257 Roberts, up to 100g
.257 Roberts AI, up to 115g
.25-06, up to 117g
6.5x55 Mauser, up to 120g
.260 Remington, up to 125g
.270 Winchester, up to 140g
7x57mm Mauser, up to 120g
7mm-08, up to 130g
.284 Winchester, up to 139g
.280 Remington, up to 140g
300 Savage, up to 125g
.308 Winchester, up to 150/155g
.30-06, up to 165/168g

Again, if we used 2950fps as the cutoff, the list would be longer and bullet weights would go up.

Based on your own 3000fps criteria, the use of premium bullets is called for in many cases even with non-magnums.

IMHO, the ‘hellstorm’ as you call it was not caused by your advocacy of standard cartridges but rather the manner in which you did it – which included needless ad hominem attacks against various individuals and what I and others consider misrepresentations of the facts.

I adressed no individual specifically until they started attacking my quotes specifically. Go back and look at who directed a post at a specific person first. I have said at least 4 times now that if the descriptions of some of the local over gunned flinchers don't apply to you them why are you pissed? I left room for exceptions in every comment that I made yet some completely overreacted. Sounds like some of you are a tad too insecure.

Addressing specific points made by individuals does not constitute an ad hominem attack. It does, however, provide clarity in long threads.  Here are some examples of ad hominem attack:

“Yeah but he had a crop field too huh? I'm sure he wouldn't have bought one for a backyard garden. Well, on second thought he was kin to you so maybe so.”

“Reading skills...... they're important.”

“George break out the "Thinks He's Funny but Isn't Detector"   Holy crap Sam it's reading off the scale.”

 “Wait, did I miss it. When did you make a logical argument?”

There are other examples, but these should suffice.  They are, of course, all quotes of statements made by you.

You talk about “average” distances of 100 yards, then later talk about open croplands where long shots can be expected.  So you solution is what – take two rifles and only use the magnum if a long shot is presented? 

No, I'd take a 25-06 or a 270 and kill anything from zero to as far as I could consistently hit it. Which for me is about 400 yards with a good rested position. (Don't have anywhere to practice any farther than that) And let me tell you I don't care what kind of rifle you carry unless you are going to sight it in 4 inches high at 100 yards (Which would be ridiculous here) then you are going to have to know the proper hold over at 400. Even sighting that high at 100 yards only a few of the most powerful mags are going eradicate hold over at 400.

I don’t know anyone that sights their rifles 4” high at 100 yards.  Most go 2-1/2” to 3”.  I generally zero mine for Maximum Point Blank Range using a 6” diameter target, but somewhere I read that 2.8” high at 100 yards is generally a good number.  If we use that and compare two loads from Nosler 5th, a 165g Ballistic Tip at 2882fps in a .30-06 and 3260fps in a .300 Win Mag, the .300 Win adds 50 yards to the point where the bullet drop is 10” below Point Of Aim (350 yards and 400 yards respectively).  To a person without a laser range finder (read “most hunters”), that can be significant.

And by far the most misinformed locals I know concerning bullet drop at such distances are the magnum men. Why? Because they have bought into the hype about their new magnum hook line and sinker and have a vastly overinflated opinion of it's trajectory. I know this because I talk to them all the time. The fact that such trajectory myths persist year after year here are testiment to two things; One, how rare it is that a 400 yard shot actually presents itself and two, that virtually none of these guys have actually fired any practice shots at 400 yards to see the reality of their new magnums trajectory.

Here in Colorado people read ballistic charts pretty well.  Or use ballistic calculators.  I see guys at the range making shots at 200, 300, 400 and 500 yards on a regular basis.  They know the trajectories, which is why they keep hitting their targets.  Magnums or non-magnums, doesn’t seem to make a difference.

I can’t tell you how many shot opportunities I have had that were over 400 yards, but I can sum it up in one word: “many”.

why do you carry a .30-06, 7mm-08 or .25-06 instead of a .30-30?

Basically because of the guns offered in said calibers. I like highly accurate bolt guns and the 30-30 is pretty much a lever action gun. To be truthful though I probably have only killed 3 deer in the last 10 years that I couldn't have killed with a 30-30 and a straight 4 or 6 power scope. And I am seriously considering getting another 30-30 as I currently do not have one. A fact I consider to be a mark of shame for any rifleman.

In other words a valid reason to carry “too much gun” would be because you like to?

Just how far out were those deer?  I shoot my .30-30 at 300 yards on a regular basis and, when the wind is steady or not blowing, can hit a kill-zone sized gong every time.  With my 170g loads the drop is only 18” and the retained energy is still 867fpe – that’s more than enough to kill a deer and about what my .44 Mag loads retain at 70 yards.  When I had my Marlin .375Win and .45-70 at the NRA Whittington Center, I was knocking down the 500-meter rams on 4 out of every 5 shots, using 4x scopes on both rifles.  I thought you said you could shoot well – what do you mean by “I probably have only killed 3 deer in the last 10 years that I couldn't have killed with a 30-30”?  If it’s all just a matter of knowing the range and trajectory...

[Todd1700]

I think that you are confused over the fact that none of your buddys can shoot straight. Reguardless of caliber.

No mostly just the overmagged boys. I have plenty friends and family that are excellent shots.

[nomosendero]

The 180 Gr. BST, though tougher than the BT as I recently found out will expand on a Whitetail very well & be a better wind bucker than the 150's, the 180Accubond is great at any range &
the 180BT is great even with mags if you "Lung"  the Deer & expand way ouit there. These will outperform a 150 at long range. I have used the BT with great effect even though it is an overexpander if misapplied, so I choose to not misapply it, There is very little meat loss in the rib area.

Alot has happened with 180's in the last few years, the Interbond & Swift are others & the TSX will expand down to about 1,900FPS.

Again, traj. is not as important as wind drift & the 180 is a better Long range bullet. I don't even use 150's now in a 308.

I am talking about Deer only here in regards to the quick expander 180's..

[dukkillr]

I think that you are confused over the fact that none of your buddys can shoot straight. Reguardless of caliber.

No mostly just the overmagged boys. I have plenty friends and family that are excellent shots.

First rule of statistics:  Correlation does not equal causation. 

You're a bitter individual who probably inherited an irrational and judgment thought process.  This debate has made me feel sorry for you.  My grandfather used to quote:  "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt." - Lincoln

This long ago stopped being about magnums...

[Coyote Hunter]

Yeah but the bullet that you will have to use in that 300 Weatherby in order to get only a modest exit hole and moderate meat damage will cost about 3 times as much as standard bullets.

Actually, factory ammo runs less than twice as much.  And there is no significant cost difference between the bullets I load for my .257 Roberts, 7mm Mag, .308 Win, .300 Mag and .45-70 - they all get premium bullets, A-Frames or North Forks, and the finished products often cost LESS than standard factory fodder.

[Todd1700]

“Yeah but he had a crop field too huh? I'm sure he wouldn't have bought one for a backyard garden. Well, on second thought he was kin to you so maybe so.”

You call that minor joke an attack?

“Reading skills...... they're important.”

Well, they are.

“George break out the "Thinks He's Funny but Isn't Detector"   Holy crap Sam it's reading off the scale.”

Another joke in responce to a joke poking fun at me. At least I know how to take it. Man you guys are thin skinned.

a 165g Ballistic Tip at 2882fps in a .30-06 and 3260fps in a .300 Win Mag, the .300 Win adds 50 yards to the point where the bullet drop is 10” below Point Of Aim (350 yards and 400 yards respectively)

Go back and read where I said a big mag starts to shine. I think you will see an amazing
coincidence.

Just a few factory loads:
.243 Winchester = WW 95g Ballistic Silvertip (3100fps), Federal 95g Ballistic Tip (3025fps)
.25-06 = Winchester 115g Ballistic Silvertip (3060fps), Federal 100g Ballistic Tip (3210fps)
.270 Winchester = Winchester 130g Ballistic Silvertip (3050fps), Federal 130g Ballistic Tip (3060fps)
.280 Remington = Winchester 140g Ballistic Silvertip (3040fps)
.30-06 = Winchester 125g PSP (3125fps)

Based on your own 3000fps criteria, the use of premium bullets is called for in many cases even with non-magnums.

Again with the muzzle velocities. The only two on that list that might still be faster than 3000 fps at even 40 yards is the 25-06 100 grain and the 30-06 125 grain. And they would be barely above it. The rest would easily be below it. Also I know of nobody that uses the 125gr 30-06 bullet for deer hunting. Terrible BC for a deer bullet. I suppose it might make a decent coyote round if you didn't care about pelt damage. The 100 gr 25-06 would certainly not be my first choice for up close woodland shots but unless you had the barrel jammed into the deers rib cage you would most likely have no problems.

In other words a valid reason to carry “too much gun” would be because you like to?

Please! Now you are just trying to be ridiculous. I never said anyone not using a 30-30 is overgunned. And I gave a perfectly good reason that had nothing to do with caliber size as to why I use the rifles that I do. I've never heard of being over gunned with a 7mm-08 but okay I'll take that heat.

I thought you said you could shoot well – what do you mean by “I probably have only killed 3 deer in the last 10 years that I couldn't have killed with a 30-30”? 

It means that I have killed at least 3 deer in the 300 yard range. A 30-30 with even the lighter 150 gr bullet in factory loads will drop about 29 inches at 300 yards. That's a lot. The 170 gr drops more. In factory loads the 150 grain bullet retains only about 565 ft-lbs of energy and the 170 grain bullet only retains about 720 ft-lbs of energy at that distance. Thats just getting too low. The 30-30 was never concieved or intended to be a 300 yard deer rifle and therefore I wouldn't use it as one. Having enough energy left to ring a gong at 300 plus yards does not make the 30-30 a long range deer cartridge.

[Todd1700]

You're a bitter individual who probably inherited an irrational and judgment thought process.  This debate has made me feel sorry for you. 

How old are you? 9

[Todd1700]

My grandfather used to quote:  "It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt."

There's a lot of irony in you saying this.

[Mac11700]

Odd that people get upset even though they clearly claim a use for a magnum that places them in a minority that might actually need one and therefore outside the scope of people I was taking a jab at. The vast majority of people here however shoot nothing but deer with them and at very close range

.

Let's look at the reason for this shall we...let's go back shall we 

Magnums have their place where they shine but it's been my experience that very few of the people who own one are using them in a way that warrents the extra power.

Just how few people do you know own magnum rifles?...This may account for your lack of knowledge on the subject matter..now wouldn't it...But..let's continue on for now ehh...

Out to 300 yards there is little difference in the on game performance of a magnum vs some other standard caliber

Sorry...I don't know where you are getting you information...but it clearly isn't correct...I know a bunch of mangnum shooters(as I was as well at 1 time)...and all different kinds of bullets are used...C.E. bullets are used when the possiblity of up close shots on game are likely....and now with the advent of Federals new Fusion ammo becoming available nation wide..at a very resonable rate..will be used a-lot more..over bullets that tend to fail...at even standard rifle velocities...and the performance inside the deer is much different with a quality built bullet like a Nosler Accubond or Partition or Failsafe... Hornady Interbond,Trophy Bonded Bear Claws,Grand Slams,NorthForks,Remington Ultras,...as compared to the cheaper offerings of most of these companies...and I'll let you in a little secrete...a lot of us use these better built bullets all the time...and love the results we get...

It's only out past 300 yards that Magnum rounds start to seperate themselves in terms of retained energy and trajectory. But this leads to a sort of catch 22 because the extra recoil and muzzle blast of a magnum often diminishes a persons ability to shoot well out past 300 yards. Thus removing the primary advantage of a magnum in the first place.

Sorry...again you are mistaken...you are confusing shooting many many rounds off a bench as compared to taking 1 or 2 shots in the field...2 totally different topics here...

All I'm saying is that the desire for a magnum rifle is far far greater than the actual "need" to have one for the vast majority of people where I hunt.

Ok...I can live with this statement...and would have been willing to concede any further arguments or discussion...however you didn't stop there now did you...You had to start adding to the subject you probably have only read about...like this...


 

A magnum rifle is needed for one of two things.

How in the world do you know this...since before you said only a few people you know own them? How with you limited knowledge draw this conclusion?...it's simple...your only talking about a few people ithat you know..and in a miniscule area in a state that has how many 100,000's of acres to hunt on?.....Let's move on..

To hurl a light to moderate weight bullet at a very flat trajectory for very long range shooting or to hurl a very heavy bullet at a speed sufficient to penetrate and kill very large and or dangerous animals.

Ok...but what about those who reload or prefere using a heavier weight bullet you their everyday usage? Again...you don't know a-lot about which heavy weight bullets opens at modest velocities do you...?

The largest game animal here in Alabama is the whitetail deer which rarely exceeds 200 lbs down here (so the really heavy bullet need for a magnum is out)

Ahh...not really...there are lots of reasons to use a heavier weight bullet...nomosendaro has given you some excellent advise on this already..but..I will add to what krochus has alredy stated..and say some prefere the heavier bullets..but I think I know why...

and the average shot distance on deer in Alabama is less than 100 yards. (so the flat trajectory out past 350 yards need for a magnum is out as well)

This is why...you want to speak as the majority for your entire state...and it just isn't so...I know this for a absolute fact that there are multitude of places to take 350 yard shots and longer in Alabama...again...perhaps not in the tiny part you hunt in at anyone time...

But hey it's their deer and if they want to consistently throw half of them away due to bloodshoot meat that's their business....

Here's another reason why people get upset...here you surely are talking about those few shoulder bruised,eye cut,deaf individuals you know...and not the rest of us...correct?If you were talking about the few you know..you should put sometype of qualifying statement with this..and not leave it open...unless that was what you really were doing...was it?
 

But I tell you what's funny; Standing in a sporting goods store listening to some victim of magnumitis with his bruised shoulder and half moon scope cut over his eye ponder in amazement over the fact that the deer he's shooting with his new 300 ultra mag are still running just as far before they die as they did will his old 30-06.

Hmmm...sorry...no...while you may find humor in others misfortune...I don't...That's the difference between you and me...see...I would have entered into a intellegent conversation with the individual and tried to elimimate his problems with his scope,and his ammo selection...you on the other hand...elected to find humor in his pain and troubles..and had a good laugh at his expense...snug in you self rightious beliefs that somehow he might have deserved what he got.....all because he was using a magnum..

Maybe in a decade or two they will all learn that you can't kill anything deader by using a bigger gun.

Hmmmm...you went from talking about deer...to saying we can't kill (your words here) ANYTHING deader by using  a bigger gun.....see...you slipped up here now didn't you...

All you can do is mutilate the corpse a little worse.

You may have been thinking deer...but you didn't say deer...you said... anything... You might have been think mutilating a small deer....but you didn't...you said anything...

You need to determine if your argument is...you see no need for a magnum for your friends..only in your tiny little part of the state...or in their general acceptance and there in the 'need" of a magnum rifle....If you are only speaking about these few individuals..then that's one thing...but I will say it again...stop talking for everyone...Speak only for yourself and those who give you that right...You can have an opinion that magnums are't needed that's fine...no big deal......but...voice it as opinion,not fact...and stop adding all the BS that you think you know but don't.....The facts you think you know..don't hold much water with those of us that know about magnums real well...I grew up with them...and the first centerfire rifle I ever shot was a fairly new on the market 458Win mag cartridge...I was very young..and very small...and I didn't become deaf,cut,or bruised by my experiances with it that day...I did get knocked on my butt...ONCE...but after that...it was all fun...and still is...

Mac

[Mac11700]

I can't imagine the advantage of shooting deer with 150grn bullets.

Flatter trajectory and they will actually expand on a 150 lb animal. Most 180 grain and heavier bullets are designed a little tougher due to the fact that they are more often used on larger game. This is true of bullets of even the same type. Often 180 grain bullets have a thicker copper jacket or a slightly harder lead alloy than the same bullet in a 140 or 150 grain weight. You can reach a point with small deer where you are just poking holes through them. Oh it will kill them but most people who try 180gr or heavier bullets down here only do it for one year. And usually refer to it henceforth as the year I became a better tracker.

Entrance wound


 
Exit wound..







90lb doe...taken at about 125 yards...no blood shot meat from this shot......She dropped at the shot...gun used...338-06A-Square...load data...180 grain Nosler Accubond bullet with a muzzle velocity of 3050fps 15' from the muzle...so a correct muzzle velocity of right at 3100fps...guess what...this qualifies as a magnum...

180 grain bullets work fine on small animals...near...or far...Try again...or read a different gun writer will ya...

Mac

[Todd1700]

Just how few people do you know own magnum rifles?

Too many.

Sorry...again you are mistaken...you are confusing shooting many many rounds off a bench as compared to taking 1 or 2 shots in the field...2 totally different topics here

So recoil only affects accuracy at the Range? Interesting concept. Can't say that I agree.

Ok...but what about those who reload or prefere using a heavier weight bullet you their everyday usage?

You in no way adress with this statement how I am wrong about the primary reasons for a magnum caliber. What pray tell was the genesis of large magnums if not to either fire either a moderate weight bullet at a very flat trajectory or a very heavy bullet at an adequate speed to make it suitable for very large game?

Ahh...not really...there are lots of reasons to use a heavier weight bullet..

Then name them where 150 lb whitetails are concerned.

This is why...you want to speak as the majority for your entire state...and it just isn't so...I know this for a absolute fact that there are multitude of places to take 350 yard shots and longer in Alabama

Been here lately? Not really. Even clear cuts (which are just about the only places left a long shot is possible) are replanted quickly with hybrid Loblolly pine trees that grow very fast. Agriculture, ie: the planting of crops, is virtual dead in Alabama. And most of what is still being planted is nothing that attracts deer. Mostly it's cotton. FYI deer don't eat cotton. The only other place where long shots are possible is powerline rows and few people have one that cuts across their land.

Here's another reason why people get upset...here you surely are talking about those few shoulder bruised,eye cut,deaf individuals you know

Exactly and if you aren't one then what are you mad at?

That's the difference between you and me...see...I would have entered into a intellegent conversation with the individual and tried to elimimate his problems with his scope,and his ammo selection.

And you would be in for a rude awakening and catch more flack than I've gotten here.

Hmmmm...you went from talking about deer...to saying we can't kill (your words here) ANYTHING deader by using  a bigger gun.....see...you slipped up here now didn't you...

You may have been thinking deer...but you didn't say deer...you said... anything... You might have been think mutilating a small deer....but you didn't...you said anything...

Does the term "World Class Nitpicker" mean anything to you?

You need to determine if your argument is...you see no need for a magnum for your friends..only in your tiny little part of the state...

I directed my comments very specifically. That being that for the vast majority of people in my home state a large magnum is major overkill considering the size of our deer and the distance they are shooting them at. Can't get more simple than that. If you are still having trouble figuring out what I'm trying to say at this point then lets just agree to let it go.

[Todd1700]

90lb doe...taken at about 125 yards...

Ah well of course this one example is certainly proof that all people shooting 90 lb does with 180 gr bullets are actually the ones in the know.  Thank God you had enough gun.

[High Brass]

I don't care what people use as long as they use it safely and effectively.

[Coyote Hunter]

Been here lately? Not really. Even clear cuts (which are just about the only places left a long shot is possible) are replanted quickly with hybrid Loblolly pine trees that grow very fast. Agriculture, ie: the planting of crops, is virtual dead in Alabama. And most of what is still being planted is nothing that attracts deer. Mostly it's cotton. FYI deer don't eat cotton. The only other place where long shots are possible is powerline rows and few people have one that cuts across their land.

According to the USDA's 2002 reports, Alabama agriculture included the following:

45,126 Farms, including:
    42,359 Farms, family owned
    35,073 Farms, cropland

8,904,387 Farm acres, including:
    3,732,751 Cropland acres
    1,995,139 Cropland acres harvested
       823,039 Cropland acres used for hay, silage, greenchop, etc.
       523,123 Cropland acres used for cotton
       176,122 Cropland acres used for corn
       164,771 Cropland acres used for soybeans
         57,650 Cropland acres used for wheat

713,668 Hogs sold

1,437,795 Cattle and calves, inventory (on the farms)

1, 050, 885, 771 Chickens sold  (That’s no typo, it 1+ BILLION)

Alabama’s agriculture doesn’t seem as dead as you claim.  And contrary to your claim, the acres of cotton represent only a fraction (roughly 1/4th) of the total cropland acres harvested.  The acres under cotton also represent a mere 14% of the total cropland.

[R.W.Dale]

Flatter trajectory and they will actually expand on a 150 lb animal. Most 180 grain and heavier bullets are designed a little tougher due to the fact that they are more often used on larger game. This is true of bullets of even the same type. Often 180 grain bullets have a thicker copper jacket or a slightly harder lead alloy than the same bullet in a 140 or 150 grain weight. You can reach a point with small deer where you are just poking holes through them. Oh it will kill them but most people who try 180gr or heavier bullets down here only do it for one year. And usually refer to it henceforth as the year I became a better tracker.

 Wrong again! A 180 grn 30 caliber projectile has a much flatter trajectory than those dinky little 150 grainers. Theres a lot more that goes into ballistic trajectory than velocity I don't care if you're using a 200grn grand slam a 180grn partition or a 220 grn remington RN at magnum speend you will probably die of old age before you see a bullet fail to expand on a deer.

 The advantage to using heavier deep penatrating bullets is you cas get to the vitals from just about any angle.

 On the flip side of this some std cartriges have a notoriously bat reputation for failing to expand. Take factory 7x57 ammo for example that just happens to get loaded with a bullet intended for 7MM mag.

[nomosendero]

90lb doe...taken at about 125 yards...

Ah well of course this one example is certainly proof that all people shooting 90 lb does with 180 gr bullets are actually the ones in the know.  Thank God you had enough gun.

And of course you know that this example had NOTHING to do with using enough gun, it makes sense to look at the reason the example was given, that was the purpose in giving it. I don't question Mac's experience, but I may question others.

The obvious point is that the right 180 gr. bullet will expand properly at any range that we will shoot a Deer
& at the same time not do excessive damage as some unlearned people think happens when we use a magnum. I have already stated the advantages of a 180 over a 150, no need to again.

[nomosendero]

Coyote Hunter, that was an interesting AG report. I knew about the Chickens (Tyson & other big
boys headquarters here in AR), but I did not know they had that many Cattle, which might indicate pastures.

I know the Black Belt Region did at one time have a bean field or two & had Bucks that were bigger than the norm for that state, but I haven't been through there in a while. I have a cousin in NE AL.
& that is nice country, a little hilly, mostly woods but some Cattle country as well. Yes, like here in AR. some places have long range opportunities & some don't.

[Mac11700]

This is what you said Todd...

It's only out past 300 yards that Magnum rounds start to seperate themselves in terms of retained energy and trajectory. But this leads to a sort of catch 22 because the extra recoil and muzzle blast of a magnum often diminishes a persons ability to shoot well out past 300 yards. Thus removing the primary advantage of a magnum in the first place.

And what I said...[qoute]Sorry...again you are mistaken...you are confusing shooting many many rounds off a bench as compared to taking 1 or 2 shots in the field...2 totally different topics here...

and you reply this...?

Quote
Sorry...again you are mistaken...you are confusing shooting many many rounds off a bench as compared to taking 1 or 2 shots in the field...2 totally different topics here


So recoil only affects accuracy at the Range? Interesting concept. Can't say that I agree.

It's painfully obvious you know nothing about magnums..or the differnce between using them for hunting and using them off a bench...most of us that do...know full well in the heat of the moment of pulling the trigger on game...one doesn't even notice the recoil,or muzzle blast...Many good folks will tell you this simple fact..and since we are talking about hunting applications with small deer here...why try to befuddle this anymore...or can't you keep your story straight?

Been here lately?

Actually I have...several times...since I have immediate family living in the state...Maybe you need to get out of the your neck of the woods and drive all over the state and look for yourself...

Quote
Ahh...not really...there are lots of reasons to use a heavier weight bullet..

Then name them where 150 lb whitetails are concerned.

This has already been addressed...try actually reading what nomosendaro told you...but..in case you haven't heard...go back and read some people like using heavier weight bullets for deer hunting...even in standard calibers...and even in Alabama...there are some pretty big deer roaming around...Also...aren't there some good size hogs roaming around too? Have you never heard of a mixed bag hunt before...?

and my favorite tort response of your...

Quote
Here's another reason why people get upset...here you surely are talking about those few shoulder bruised,eye cut,deaf individuals you know

Exactly and if you aren't one then what are you mad at?

Let's try another approach to you...since you don't seem to understand....If you are talking about only you friends...stick to that...and leave the rest of the BS out of it...When you go making statements you obviously know nothing about..and folks here give you sound reason you are wrong...and you still continue...you are in fact just trolling to continue argueing...By the way...I not mad at all...you would know very quickly if I were...

Quote
90lb doe...taken at about 125 yards...

Ah well of course this one example is certainly proof that all people shooting 90 lb does with 180 gr bullets are actually the ones in the know.  Roll Eyes Thank God you had enough gun.

I took this rifle to see how well it would do on deer...My friends at Nosler gave me suggested the load with at that time new bullet...It did spectacular by the way...Enough gun...yup...it worked and worked well...The bullet opened as designed..and the deer was humanly dispatched...and as a result...venison was put in the freezer that we have enjoyed thru the past winter and spring...It may be only 1 kill proof for you...but certianly 1 more than you have done.....now isn't it...The rifle is a tack driver..set up for long range hunting...the bullet is designed to open at magnum veclocities on small animals and hold together even if bone is hit...it also will open at standard velocities and hold together .While you see no-need for this type of bullet..(which is only a few dollars more per 50 than the regular ballistic tips)...nor the need to use this type rifle for hunting small animals...for those who choose to they can...Is it "overkill ?"."Could a smaller caliber suffice..."...sure...like I said way back...I could have used a 22 mag to get the job done...but since I needed to use this rifle and needed to evaluate the bullet..it was the tool I used...

Mac

[R.W.Dale]

 Todd all you bring to this discussion is an opinion completely based apoun wrong assumptions and experiance you don't have. That and an above average typing ability.

 It speaks volumes about the company you keep, when you state that they are all really crack shots and only miss when shooting magnums and yet they continue to stick with guns they cannot hit anything with

[Skeptic10787]

This entire thread is really getting quite childish. Reminds me of several drunken deer camp discussions throughout the years.

I think one thing most of us can agree on is that a successful kill is far more the shooter than the cartridge. Take away the hype, take away the discussions, take away the names... I believe each and every shooter should form their own opinion on a cartridge based on their own their own experience, starting with the first cartridge he/she uses to harvest a deer. I can't count how many older ("experienced") hunters I know that still use the same round they started with. Heck, I even know a few younger guys (20's) who have been able to admit that the sissy little 243 their father bought 'em when they turned 12 is the best deer gun they've used, and wouldn't trade it for anything else.

[Todd1700]

713,668 Hogs sold

1,437,795 Cattle and calves, inventory (on the farms)

1, 050, 885, 771 Chickens sold  (That’s no typo, it 1+ BILLION)

Deer don't eat chickens, hogs or cows. And most of them are not raised free range anymore. Chickens and hogs are mostly raised in large enclosed stockyardlike facilities. And most farmers don't let people hunt in their fenced in cow pastures.

176,122 Cropland acres used for corn
       164,771 Cropland acres used for soybeans
         57,650 Cropland acres used for wheat

 Do you know how patheticly low these numbers are for a state Alabamas size? Lets compare them to another state close to Alabamas overall size. Illinois, where I go and bowhunt each year for example. Illinois has 11.6 million acres of corn, 10.1 million acres of soybeans and 900 thousand acres of winter wheat. They also have equally gigantic crops of oats and milo. Now go look up how much of Alabama is covered in planted pine. Then you'll see the real picture

I took this rifle to see how well it would do on deer...

Just picking at you Mac. A 338-06 is just basically a 30-06 necked up to accept a larger caliber bullet. A 180 grain bullet out of it is a not really what I would even call magnum speed. Larger bullet than I would use but it definately won't mess up too much meat. A lot of people down here have used and swore off heavy for caliber bullets on our deer. I have killed them with 180 gr 30-06 bullets in my younger days but often got an exit hole only a bit larger than the entrance hole if only ribs were impacted. And they tended to run a little farther.

Let's try another approach to you...since you don't seem to understand....If you are talking about only you friends...stick to that...and leave the rest of the BS out of it

I originally spoke only of the mag hunters I see locally. Some people on here (obviously very insecure about what they use to hunt) jumped to to conclusions that I meant they were all just like those folks even though I repeatedly left open ended exclusions to every statement I initially made. I have repeatedly pointed out this fact to them but to no availe. Too late, the dignity of their magnum shootin iron had been offended. Maybe the image of the guy standing in the sporting goods store with the half moon over his eye hit a little too close to home on some of them. Who knows. Then they got smarmy and started taking little jabs about getting secret reports, making jokes and questioning my skill, intelligence and experience level. That's cool I'm all for spirited debate, none of this does anything more than make me chuckle and I can more than handle myself verbally. I've been having a ball with some of these hotheads who are waaaaay more pissed over a subject this trivial than any well adjusted adult ever should be.

That and an above average typing ability.

Well thanks at least for the shot out to my typing skills.

Todd all you bring to this discussion is an opinion completely based apoun wrong assumptions 

No the problem is this. Some people just hate it when you speak in generallities. And they think if they can point out any exception to what you are saying that it invalidates all of what you are saying.  It doesn't. It just simply proves that there are exceptions to every rule. But that doesn't change the rule. Some are so desparate to find an exception to dispute your comments that they will even look up old Alabama A.G. reports.  For example when I state that the vast majority of Aabama is heavily wooded and therefore long shots on deer are not that common. Somebody pops up to report, "No I drove through there once and I saw a few cow pastures." Oh yes that certainly proves me totally wrong. 

and experiance you don't have

You lambast me for speaking of that which you think I know not and yet in the same sentence speak of something that you cannot possibly know about. My experience level. There's some irony in there somewhere. I may not hunt our deer with a magnum rifle but I have shot magnum rifles quite often. Furthermore I take quite a few people hunting each year on our land and have seen, and helped recover many deer shot with them. This combined with almost 30 years of shooting deer with a wide range of standard caliber rifles for comparison I think at least warrents the right to an opinion. But if this website has a standardized list of what you have had to do in life before you can have an opinion on this subject then by all means point it out to me. I'd like to read it.

It speaks volumes about the company you keep, when you state that they are all really crack shots and only miss when shooting magnums and yet they continue to stick with guns they cannot hit anything with

You aren't gonna make me drag out the reading skills crack again are you? It's getting old even to me. I have many friends who shoot very well. Most of them shoot standard cartridges. Most of the magnum shooters I know tend to be the type who can quote you all the ballistic virtues of the new cannon they just bought but can't hit a sheet of loose leaf notebook paper at 200 yards. Sorry that's just my experiences. Your milage many vary.

This entire thread is really getting quite childish.

Isn't it. I think we have said all that can be said.