Author Topic: 8x57 does it all better? (Read 7706 times)

Mr. Joe · « **on:** July 29, 2006, 02:26:13 PM »

I was just having a chat with a gun nut friend of mine and we got to talking abou the 8 mauser. Properly loaded this one hot little ticket. We were thinking, since it easily reaches .30-06 power levels with a .325 bullet, wouldnt it be a bit better as an all around rig for the handloader? It seems it handles the heavys real well. The loads we were looking at ranged from 150 gr. to 250gr. and the numbers were impresive. What do you all think abou this rounds big game use? It seems like a good ticket for a deer hunter who may tangle with a moose or perhaps a grizzly yet doesnt want magnum recoil. I guess the real problem would be getting a comercial rifle chambered in it!

nomosendero · « **Reply #1 on:** July 29, 2006, 03:14:21 PM »

Mr. Joe, some of the new bullets that came out for the 8mm help the cartridge a little & it is a good medium range Deer/Black Bear type round.

But unfortunately the case does not have the capacity to run with the 30-06. To have a good shape bullet with a good BC to maintain good energy over 250 yards you need a 175-180 grain
bullet & for a bullet this size or better you need more powder space. The 8mm will push a 175-180
grain to about 2,650 & the '06 will push a 180 at 2,850, both compared with good reloads. 200FPS is alot in this case because it is combined with a superior BC & better Sec. for Penetration which helps the 06 even more. If you increase the bullet weight to 200 gr, the 8mm will be traveling about 2,400FPS where the "06 can be traveling at least 2,650FPS, now the spread is 250fps & will increase if you add more weight & the 8mm is running out of powder space. With a muzzel velocity of 2,400 & less with more bullet means that the bullet will have trouble performing right even at 200-250yds. whereas the '06 can keep trucking for awhile.
If you go under 175 gr. to have a fast bullet, then the bullets are too short to have good penetration & a decent BC., so you come up short again.
The only way a 8mm can run with a 30-06 is to have an "06 size case or close to it. That is why so many people took their 8mm Mauser & converted to a 8mm-'06. You have then a common case &
the larger 8mm bore which now can zing a 200gr. bullet very well.

Please don't misunderstand, the 8mm Mauser is an excellant round & will take care of many if not most of an average hunter's shooting needs. But it is not accurate to say it will compete side by side with the 30-06, it will not.

If you like a bigger bore, check out the 338-06 info in this section. You have good shaped bullets & the '06 case, heck of a deal!!!

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #2 on:** July 29, 2006, 04:24:38 PM »

Thats alot of good info. thanks. I was thinking along similar lines with the case capacity, although the loads we were looking at in particular pushed a 150 gr. slug just over 3000fps and the 200 gr. load was moving around 2600fps. I was thinking that the larger projectile would offer some advantage for the larger critters but i doubt it would do anything the 06 wouldnt. I really dont know a whole lot about the round, but i certinly am interested in it. I probaly should have looked at some of the spicy 06 loads for comparison.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #3 on:** July 29, 2006, 04:30:18 PM »

In a modern rifle handloaded with 200 Nosler partitions an 8x57 will handle everything up to moose with no problem at all. I've been doing just that with my 8x57jrs for more than 20 years now... I've harvested moose, bear and many other big game animials while hunting all over Alaska with mine, and it's now my most used round.

I prefer one load for each of my rifles and i chose to load mine with 200 NP's to just over 2,500 fps.. It's not a max load, and the brass falls out of the chamber. I use to load it to just over 2,600, and that was "near" max in my gun....

BTW, i also have two .338-06's and have harvested a lot of meat with them also.

Drilling Man

Cheesehead · « **Reply #4 on:** July 29, 2006, 04:35:44 PM »

I believe the 8mm Mauser could be a great elk/moose cartridge. Load it to the maximum with good bullets and take it any place in North America.

Cheese

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #5 on:** July 29, 2006, 07:24:47 PM »

That was my first thought when comparing the balistics. It moves a .325 bullet of fairly heavy weight at almsost 2700 fps with stout loads. I need to look at the trajectory a bit more, but it seems it would be gem on toothy game. People have been touting the 220 gr. .30-06 for years, but the 8x57 can do this easily with a larger diameter bullet. I really dont see a downfall to this load. It looks as if the 8 mauser loaded with 150gr. bullets can surpas the 3000fps mark with stout loads. I should think this would make it flat enough for use a mountin gun as well. Like i said though, it will take some more looking into. The fact that it isnt available in any sporter rifles doesnt help my cause, but ive got a couple of action lieing around...

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #6 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:41:11 AM »

Ok, just found some loads.
Consider all of these MAX loads
'
8mm mauser

150gr. soft point at 3,048 fps.
175gr. soft point at 2818 fps.
200 gr. soft point at 2700 fps.

.30-06

150gr. soft point at 3,142 fps.
180 gr. soft point at 2799 fps.
200 gr. soft point at 2680 fps. ( this load operates at 58,400 fps!)

These are taken from a 24 inch barrel and chrono verified.

As you can see the performance looks real close, but the 8x57 is doing this with a larger diameter bullet. The 06 has proven its self on all N. American game, but i think the 8x57 may hold an advantage for the larger stuff.

nomosendero · « **Reply #7 on:** July 30, 2006, 05:46:35 AM »

My Nosler manual shows a 30 cal. 180 going 2,872 & the Nosler Manual shows these two very close to each other with the 200, while 5 of my other manuals show them to be 200-250FPS apart just
as I said in the first post for ALL bullets. But if we look hard we can find loads in a fast barrel that will show different, it's a rather old game.
Hornady light mag ammo is as follows for the '06 150 gr. 3,100, 165 gr. 3,015 & 180 gr. 2,900FPS.

I see loads published all of the time that are not in the major manuals that have the 30-06 a little
faster than most people can expect. Sam Fadala in a recent Gun Digest shows the 30-06 running nearly 3,000 with a 180, a little optimistic for most '06 guns, but hey it was published.

I have also seen 2,800 with the 30 cal. 200 gr. but I don't believe it is doable in the std 06' rifle
& like your 2,700FPS/200 gr 8mm load a little optimistic.

Sometimes we get a good gun like Drilling man mentioned & we get good velocities, as he stated, 2,600 was near max, if 2,600 was near max, 2700 would be over. I have an '06 with just a 22" tube that I can load right up there with the Hor. light mag., but it is not the norm.

Like I said before the 8mm is a fine round & like someone said you can use it for Moose, Elk, Bear
whatever in North America. But to run with an '06 you need a bigger gas tank period.

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #8 on:** July 30, 2006, 06:29:09 AM »

I just found another load for the .30-06 pushing a 220gr. at like 2600fps! Imagine that recoil!

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #9 on:** July 30, 2006, 07:14:09 AM »

Mr. Joe - I've been shooting one for 35 yrs.. Not only one of the best Cartridges ever developed, But one of the best Whitetail Cartridges.Just ask Mr. Mauser. He invented it and put it in The best Bolt Action ever developed - The Mauser 98. Dad brought 5 Home from WWII. Kept 1, gave 4 to Relatives. Mine was the only one returned. Gunsmith friend of Dad's made it into a Custom.20" Barrel,Hand carved stock. 30Years ahead of the Rem, Model 7.Used to load 150's, and They shot pretty well out that original Barrel. Changed to Sellier & Bellot 196gr. SPCE. S&B claims 2600 for the 196gr.. Thats a lot of snap for the .323. Check out Conley Precision - He gets about the max. out of the Old 8X57, and it is a very serious loading.Yeah, the 8mm may be a tad behind the 06, but it does it with a larger Bore.Did a Wet Newspaper test with it and a 300 Win. Mag.. The Mag had more penetration with Partitions, but the 8mm wasn't far behind. It did beat the Mag, Loaded with 180 Hornadys. Hornady's fell apart, The 8mm S&B's had an unbelieveabaly Large Mushroom and Held Together. Unfortunately, I had to Take the 300 Win. Mag.. Went out of Country and just could not justify if My Mauser ever got Missing, Could not replace it,The Rem. 300 win. Mag., I can.

nomosendero · « **Reply #10 on:** July 30, 2006, 07:23:06 AM »

MH you are right, a gun that your father gives you & especially under the circumstances is worth protecting while a gun we go out & buy can be replaced.

Yes, it is a very nice round & the same is true of the 7X57 & 6.5X55.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #11 on:** July 30, 2006, 02:26:54 PM »

Quote

But to run with an '06 you need a bigger gas tank period.

I don't care how big the tank is, but i DO care about whether or not i get there, and i get there "every time" with my 8x57jrs!!!

Another thing, the bore diameter is "also" part of the tank, and the .323" bore is bigger than the .308" bore of the 06, and helps make up a bit for the difference...

BTW, i have several 30-06's too, and i've put a lot of meat in my freezer with an 06 too...

Drilling Man

nomosendero · « **Reply #12 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:47:13 PM »

Drilling Man

I agree with you totally, the round is great & will work well with about any hunting on this continent.
The round can stand on it's own merits & I don't see a need to compare with the 30-06.

The statement you responded to was my response to the first post of this thread, which is not quite right because of the fuel tank. It is black & white, the 30-06 has more powder capacity. But
who cares if the 8mm is enough for the job at hand? Who cares if the 8mm-06 would be offer alot more power if the 8mm Mauser powewr level is what you want. BTW the 8mm06 is a Horse of a diff. color.

Yes, the 8mm has a a .323 dia. as opposed to .308, a small difference but a difference. Different expansion characteristics of bullet types can make more difference than that, but what little diff. in diameter also means with a given weight a loss of Sectional Density, for big animals where either
one of these matter, I will take Sectional Density all day long!! If I want more than 30 cal. I will go to 338, then I can have a bigger dia. bullet & high sectional Density Combined & that's a good thing.

But I see no gain in trying to compare it to a more powerful round.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #13 on:** July 30, 2006, 05:36:55 PM »

Quote

for big animals where either
one of these matter, I will take Sectional Density all day long!!

I agree with you for the most part, but i only need to take the SD to the point where the bullets works for the intended task... I personally have shot through big moose with 200 NP's in my 8x57jrs. What would haveing a bigger SD have gotton me?? I expect my bullets to expand well and petetrate well enough to give an exit wound, and that's what 200 NP's do best.

In all the years i've drug my 8x57 all over Alaska and the lower 48 states harvesting meat for my freezer, i've only recovered two bullets. All of the rest have exited, (which i prefer) so i'm happy with the 200 NP's and plan to stay with them. I just don't see the need to look for a bullet with a bigger SD in this cal...

The pict. is the buck i harvested with my 8x57 last fall,

Drilling Man

nomosendero · « **Reply #14 on:** July 30, 2006, 06:29:34 PM »

Nice Deer & very nice weapon!! Look's like the 200 NP is working for you very well. I noticed that in
the Nosler Manual the 200 8mm has a SD of .274 & the 180 Gr. 30 Cal has an SD of .271, virtually
identical, therefore these 2 would have identical penetration. Of course the 180 can be started at 2,850 easily in the '06, so there are many ways to skin a cat. Obviously the 30 cal 200 would have more penetration than need for the animals that you shot AT THE SAME RANGE, as your 8 had plenty of penetration for that. Of course, the penetration mayl decrease & expansion especially will be compromised if the animal is shot at a distance where the round has run out of gas.
Also, for animals like a Brown Bear, I would rather trust a higher SD, but for them I would rather
use a 338, which was what I was talking about in my last post.

For animals of the Deer family, Whitetails to Moose at moderate ranges, both are great. So is the 308 or 358. But the main difference to me is with a bullet of a given SD desired the 30-06 will offer
a considerable range advantage, not a biggie if you don't shoot them over 300 yards anyway, so it
is up to us to know our needs & the additional power of the 06 may not be what some folks need
or want.

Mikey · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2006, 02:03:27 AM »

I think they are so close that it is a waste of time to compare them. What are we looking at - an 8mm bullet at 200 gn that clocks at 2500'/sec versus a 7.62mm bullet in the 06 that travels at about the same velocity, if some factory even loaded 200 grainers in the 06, otherwise it is a handload.

The Mauser actions are strong enough to build magnums on - they are strong enough to stretch the load capability of the 8mm if you want to but honestly, a 200 gn 8mm bullet at 2500'/sec will satisfy all your big game needs in the continental US.

For big bear I would no more take my 8mm than my 06, unless that was all I had on he way out the door, but they would have to be loaded very heavily. Both are excellent cartridges for Elk, Moose, medium size bear and anything smaller. And this is just my opinion. Mikey.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2006, 04:25:06 AM »

Post Removed

S.S. · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2006, 06:40:09 AM »

these 2 rounds are so close to each other that I seriously
doubt that Anything shot with either would ever know the difference.
Anything on this planet that I would go after with a 30-06,
I would have no hesitation going after with an 8mm Mauser.
Bare in mind though that there are several things that I would
would not shoot with either one of them unless it was an emergency!
They are both excellent rounds.

nomosendero · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2006, 08:46:44 AM »

Quote from: S.Sumner on July 31, 2006, 06:40:09 AM

these 2 rounds are so close to each other that I seriously
doubt that Anything shot with either would ever know the difference.
Anything on this planet that I would go after with a 30-06,
I would have no hesitation going after with an 8mm Mauser.
Bare in mind though that there are several things that I would
would not shoot with either one of them unless it was an emergency!
They are both excellent rounds.

At medium ranges yes, I agree but I would be confident of a little longer shot because of the flatter trajectory & retained energy of
the more powerful 30-06 round.

handirifle · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2006, 12:03:20 PM »

You folks need to compare apples to apples here. Compare the 8x57 to the 338-06. Big difference there. Shows the true potential of opening up the case to a larger bullet.

I think a more fair comparison might be the new 338 Federal (338-08). I know the 8mm is .323 but it's a lot closer than .308.

Drilling Man · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2006, 12:28:11 PM »

I'm not a big fan of the .338 Federal. All it's going to do is get owners to buy and use very light (for for the diameter) bullets, trying to get the velocity up!!! Then those same folks will take it hunting for bigger animials and have lack of penetration!!!

You already see it all over the sites, guys useing or wanting to use 180 grain bullets in it, then trying to compare it to an 06 with 180 grain bullets....

I've been hunting big game long enough to already know the results of that!

Drilling Man

nomosendero · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2006, 01:35:13 PM »

Quote from: handirifle on July 31, 2006, 12:03:20 PM

You folks need to compare apples to apples here. Compare the 8x57 to the 338-06. Big difference there. Shows the true potential of opening up the case to a larger bullet.

I think a more fair comparison might be the new 338 Federal (338-08). I know the 8mm is .323 but it's a lot closer than .308.

Only responding to the original subject of the post, which has now been beat to death. I have no emotional ties to the '06 or the 8mm, but I thought some facts might help the original post, but maybe not.

BTW, I agree with Drilling Man's comments concerning some using 180Gr./338 Fed for animals bigger than Deer.

handirifle · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2006, 04:54:42 PM »

No need to be a fan of any caliber, I was just stating lets compare like rounds. I could care less what someone else wants to use ANY caliber for, but when you compare cartridges with a considerable difference in dia and weight, it's not a true comparison.

Never shot or seen a 338 Fed, but the ballistics are there to compare. What keeps someone with an 8x57 from trying the same thing?

nomosendero · « **Reply #23 on:** July 31, 2006, 05:56:46 PM »

Quote from: handirifle on July 31, 2006, 04:54:42 PM

No need to be a fan of any caliber, I was just stating lets compare like rounds. I could care less what someone else wants to use ANY caliber for, but when you compare cartridges with a considerable difference in dia and weight, it's not a true comparison.

Never shot or seen a 338 Fed, but the ballistics are there to compare. What keeps someone with an 8x57 from trying the same thing?

No doubt handirifle, that would have been a good comparison in a way, but you know as well as I that with
the larger '06 case & those beautiful 338 bullets for large animals it would outdo either of these two great rounds. Like you, I am planning on a 338-06 & I will be going the Handi route. I already have some fine
bolt actions & don't need any more rifles, but you know how that goes. The Handi would give me a lot of power in a shorter package than my Sendero's & such & will fill a great niche. I guess Mac will let me touch off a round this fall in the AR gun season!!!

Mac11700 · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2006, 06:29:28 PM »

Quote

I guess Mac will let me touch off a round this fall in the AR gun season!!! Grin

Or sooner if we can work it out.....

Yjere are some interesting satements made about not using the 180 grain 338 bullets for larger game...Sorry..The Accubonds ar great bullets..and will work on game much larger than just whitetail...granted...they don't have the SD of the 30 cals..but..for one of the 80% retained weight bullets...I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Sure...folks will always hot rod a cartridge...and the 338Federal will be no different...will it be a good as my 338-06A-sqaure...probably not...but I don't think it will be far behind in the right barrels.....and using a 200 grain won't make it decripede either and should be right in the same ballpark velocity wise...so...I say it would be a fairer comparision of the 2 cartridges..

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #25 on:** July 31, 2006, 09:27:00 PM »

Nomo
PM sent in reply. Not sure if it went. No sweat though. Nothing personal taken AT ALL. It's all just chatter!

S.S. · « **Reply #26 on:** August 01, 2006, 07:16:33 AM »

As I understand it, the BC is a bit better in the .308 caliber prujectiles
than in ones of the .323. This I would guess would give the 06 a bit of a nudge
at the longer distances. In all the years I have been hunting , I have never taken a shot
farther than 250 yards so either caliber would serve me equally well I would think.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #27 on:** August 01, 2006, 08:03:16 AM »

The “8x57 does it all better?” For me it does not.

While I have nothing against the 8x57 per se, and have considered getting one, chances are very good that I never will. There are a couple of reasons for this.

The first is the firearms that are available in the 8x57 chambering. I am not interested in war relics or antique rifles, the 8x57 is not a cartridge I would build a custom rifle for, the used rifles I have seen in this cartridge have not impressed me (at least not favorably) and if I buy a new rifle it will be in a different chambering.

Which brings us to the second reason I will probably never own a 8x57 – the other options that are available. A much more likey purchase would be a .338 Federal or .338-06. Or even a .338 Win Mag. If I ever need a 8mm, a .338 will not be “too much gun”, and the .338’s offer a wider range of bullets and performance levels. If hunting deer in an area where I might tangle with a big bear or moose, a .338 Federal or .338-06 or even a .35 Whelen would be my preference to the 8x57.

S.S. · « **Reply #28 on:** August 02, 2006, 09:00:40 AM »

Actually some of those old war relics are of a much higher
standard of craftsmanship than most rifles created today.
My 1891 Mauser 7.65x53 will group as well as my 2005 Winchester
model 70! My 1896 Swedish Carl Gustav 6.5x55 (Pristine condition) will group better
than my model 70. I have 2 Turkish Mausers in 7.92x57
that will shoot MOA groups at 100 yards (this all from a Bench).
If someone was to offer me a Brand New Weatherby for that old
Carl Gustav I would not take it. And while I am on the subject,
I have a P-14 Enfield That I would put up against any rifle made today
as far as accuracy Goes. I have many more Old Rifles Than I have new,
for more reasons than one! Low cost, Rugged, Reliable, Accurate,Plenty Powerful,
I could go on and on. Those old timers Really new how to make a fine, hard hitting weapon.
And Make it of a Hand finished, hand polished Quality that will never be seen again.

Brithunter · « **Reply #29 on:** August 02, 2006, 10:56:11 AM »

S.Sumner,

Sorry but equal quality is still available but at a cost

comparing prices of today with what things cost and people earnt when these fine classic rifles were made is difficult. For example I happen to know that a "Best Sporting Rifle" with Express sights built up on a Mannlicher action by John Rigby & Co in 1908 cost 12 Guinneas. At that time it would be half a skilled workers yearly wage

compare that to the new production rifles of today

however at todays prices a comparable rifle built by Holland & Holland (since Rigbys' is not longer the firm it was

) would still cost the skilled worker about half his yearly pay. A true Rigby style rifle is still available here in the UK from Ron Wharton of Rigbys' but I do not know what his pricing structure is even if I have seen his rifles and work

.

The problem in modern times is no one seems happy making a good reasonable profit it now must be an obscene profit of nothing. So short cuts come in quality drops and all because of the great God Obscene profit

. The makers in the Golden age which I put from the start of the 20th century up until the middle of between the World Wars and beyond in some areas used highly skilled craftsmen who had immense pride in their work. Things were made right first time and to last not in the quickest time for the least cost

Walnut wood used in stocks was selected and dried the old way by air drying and fitted carefully by hand to the finished action and as the wood was cured properly it was stable. None of the warping we hear so much about today.

But the customer does not want to wait half a year to get a rifle he wants to be able to use this weeks pay check instead with possibly a bit from last weeks or next

. So who is really to blame?

It's a Chicken and egg question