Author Topic: 8x57 does it all better? (Read 7711 times)

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #60 on:** August 11, 2006, 08:43:28 AM »

Quote from: Brithunter on August 10, 2006, 11:27:46 PM

Hmmm well here goes 2nd attempt the 1st one a few days ago dissapeared into cyberspace

Hmmm not all the modern steel is that good in quality especially from place like China and India, it might be cheap but quality control is sadly lacking and I wouldn't mind betting that the steel of pre WW1 was probably a lot better than this new stuff having had to machine some of the so called quality Stainless Steel from India, well I can assure you it's quality at all more like pig iron .

There was a lot of crappy steel back in the ‘good old days’, too. Metallurgy, compared to the alloys available today, was in its infancy. The best that was available back then (prior to 1917 or so) is far inferior to what is available today.

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CNC accuracy relies on good tooling and good programming then an operator who knows what they are doing. Just because it's a CNC machine does not mean it's going to be acurate. …

CNC equipment eliminates a lot of variables. Granted, the operator has to pay attention and things have to be properly indexed, yada, yada. They do with the old ways, too. My comment was not that the old ways could not produce accurate results, it was about the consistency of the results – something CNC excels at, especially when more complex parts are involved. I’ve trained and worked as a machinist (many years ago) and have written programs to machine various parts. I also spent some time doing QC work. Overall I’ll bet on the consistency of properly set up CNC equipment over Joe the Machinist who is hungover, suffering from the flu, worried about financial problems, needs a cigarette or has any one of a zillion other things distracting him.

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As for hand finished firearms not beign available .................. sorry but your way off base there.

My statement was “Most of the war relics and old rifles I’ve seen lost their lustre years ago, and many never had much to begin with.” I stand by that statement.

The statement “Hand finished, hand polished Quality that will never be seen again”? was a partial quote from S.Summer on the first page of this thread (“Those old timers Really new how to make a fine, hard hitting weapon. And Make it of a Hand finished, hand polished Quality that will never be seen again.”)

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Hmm your friend brought a collectable rifle and then preceded to butcher it?

He bought a rifle. Considering its original condition I’m not sure how ‘collectible’ it was. It certainly wasn’t anything I would have spent money on.

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So you like cast rifles in Rugers and old fashioned but newly made lever guns in Marlins.

Yes, I do. I also like my Remington M700 .308 Win and M700ML .50 stainless muzzleloader. And My ‘Made in Japan’ Browning B92.

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You would be very daft to expect everyone to agree shooting is one hobby which is covered by a very broad church just think how boring it would be if everyone had or wanted exacty the same myself I happen to like the 8mm Mauser and so much so I sought out this Parker-Hale 1200 super rifle:-
[pics omitted]
P-H made a special run for an export order and as is normal made some over runs this is one of them. A newly made well in 1988

That is a beautiful rifle. Made in 1988? It’s hardly an antique or a war relic. And I’ll bet it cost considerably more, too.

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M98 actioned sporting rifle in 7.92mm (8x57mm) heck even Remington made a classic model in 8x57mm and a 196 Grn bullet at 2650fps is plenty for anything I am liable to hunt .

Tell you what – you send me the Parker Hale and I’ll send you a ‘collectible’ ‘piece of history’ – and we’ll call it even.

Brithunter · « **Reply #61 on:** August 11, 2006, 03:04:36 PM »

Bearing in mind that everything costs much more here in the UK

the P-H 1200 in 7.92mm cost me £275 NIB which is about $495 US. 1988 was not the best year at P-H for quality the bolt ways a re a little rough as P-H was in the process of being taken over by a US firm which lead to their collapse and being broken up a couple of years later

Now my P-H 1100 Deluxe made just 4 years earlier in 1984 is much better in this respect.

My collection is firmly "Sporting Rifle based" in fact I only now have one Military trim rifle and that is a Martini Artillery carbine (AC11) which was converted to .303 by the Henry Rifle Barrel Co in 1898. I recently sold the two M93 Boer Mausers I had and the Winchester P-14 and I have another BSA .270 1st pattern Monarch waiting to be picked up in very good condition there is one scrath on the stock finish. Also to go with the Parker-Hales I have aquired a Sportco M44 target rifle which P-H imported back in the 1970's. I will try to find the funds to get a .280 Ross sporting rifle as I have been wanting one for the colection for many years, thought had one but then the dealer after agreeing a price sold it to someone else who offered more money even though he had soem of my money already. Depite my having dealt with him for some years and having brought a number of rifles from him. To say i was annoed is somewhat of an understatement

We live and learn and I will never deal with him again, at shows he trys to be all friendly and chatty and obviously wonders why I do not look at his stock anymore

, he probably does not think what he did was wrong!

If I had the funds available a swop might be an interesting idea, no really I was looking at a .243 Midland (made by P-H) sporting rifle the other day and the prce was £120 ($216 US) however the shipping and import costs on the US side will almost cost as much. Export this side is quite easy it's your side which is a right PITA

.

DonW · « **Reply #62 on:** September 11, 2006, 11:49:41 AM »

Did I hear old world workmanship and costs regarding an 8mm sporter? Allan's Armory is sellling used Husqvarna sporters for reasonable prices, (I have no affiliation) I bought a nice 8mm from them built on a commercial 96 Swede action. Pic below. He also has 9.3X57's if you want something with bore diameter. Better news: most are C&R eligible. Don

kombi1976 · « **Reply #63 on:** September 12, 2006, 08:27:12 PM »

I guess I'm wading into this a little late on but the whole the "You can't buy new rifles in 8x57" is a load of tripe!
Most if not all of the most eminent European gunmakers make NEW rifles in 8x57JS.
I'm not sure that SAKO does but I'm almost certain that CZ, Mauser, Chapuis, Swiss Arms, Sauer and Merkel do.
And we aren't even getting into the combination guns, express rifles and drillings chambered for 8x57JRS.
So there are few if any US firms chambering for 8mm Mauser but all of the companies that are building switch barrel rifles with the latest technology in metallurgy and engineering are.
The fact that a number aren't chambered for 308, .243, .223 or .22-250 and are for 8x57JS speaks volumes in my opinion.

Mikey · « **Reply #64 on:** September 13, 2006, 01:55:39 AM »

kombi - right on! Even the new Remington 798s are available in 8mm.

DonW: The last 8mm I bought was a Husquavarna made 98 sporter - looks more like an older euro sporter or an earlier M70 than anything else but has the barrel band, etc. Shoots incredibly well. Mikey.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #65 on:** September 13, 2006, 02:01:05 AM »

Quote from: kombi1976 on September 12, 2006, 08:27:12 PM

... The fact that a number aren't chambered for 308, .243, .223 or .22-250 and are for 8x57JS speaks volumes in my opinion.

It suggests to me those rifles have a long action more suited to the 8x57 than to the shorter cartridges?

I'd sure hate to have to substitute an 8x57 when I reach for my .22-250... Other than the .308 the 8x57 is in an entirely different class than the others.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #66 on:** September 13, 2006, 04:13:25 AM »

Quote from: Coyote Hunter on September 13, 2006, 02:01:05 AM

It suggests to me those rifles have a long action more suited to the 8x57 than to the shorter cartridges?

I'd sure hate to have to substitute an 8x57 when I reach for my .22-250... Other than the .308 the 8x57 is in an entirely different class than the others.

The Sauer, Merkel and Swiss Arms are switch bbl rifles.
So you wouldn't have to substitute.

Brithunter · « **Reply #67 on:** September 19, 2006, 07:52:56 AM »

Hmmm DonW,

You are of course correct about the Huaqvarna's. However seeing as how I brought a Model 46 made in 1935 chambered for the ole 9.3x57 quite a few years ago I don't need another ................ just now that is

.

Mine has the old owners name etched into the butt plate. Ingmar Larsson.

Another Hmmm is this old saw about long actions . Yaaaaaawn

Perhaps it was only BSA but they made 3 action lengths

the Mauser normal length cartridges with a 57mm case are in fact intermediate cartridges, the 64mm length is the longer with of course Magnum beig longer still

To tell the truth I don't really notice action length until it comes to mounting a scope then the old long actions really need a long tube bodied scope to make it fit properly. The stocking up and fit of the stock is far more important to me than a theoretical problem with action length

. Just practice a little more

Old Townsend Wheelan advocated "Dry Firing" to learn and improve trigger control well working the bolt during this would also train the hands etc to handle what ever action you are using

Oh but then his rifles were made during the Golden age of craftsmanship so could withstand dry firing unlike some of those made today

.

S.S. · « **Reply #68 on:** September 19, 2006, 09:09:27 AM »

In my own experience, I have never been in a situation where
action length made any difference whatsoever! I can work the bolt on my
P-14 .303 as fast as I can the Model 70 in 223 wssm. This is one of those things that
I think a big deal is made out of for no real major reason. I have heard that a Short bolt
is more accurate, but not in my hands. I shoot both about the same.

kombi1976 · « **Reply #69 on:** September 19, 2006, 03:08:33 PM »

Quote from: Brithunter on September 19, 2006, 07:52:56 AM

Hmmm DonW,

You are of course correct about the Huaqvarna's. However seeing as how I brought a Model 46 made in 1935 chambered for the ole 9.3x57 quite a few years ago I don't need another ................ just now that is .

Mine has the old owners name etched into the butt plate. Ingmar Larsson.

BH, is the Mod 46 a M98 style action or is it an adapted M96?
Can you load your 9.3x57 right up to 50,000psi or is limited to 45k?

Mikey · « **Reply #70 on:** September 20, 2006, 01:07:21 AM »

Brithunter - about the only thing I paid any attention to by Townsend Whelan was his technique to learn the handling of a rifle by dry firing. I have loaded dummy shells for every rifle I own and reload for and practice with them regularly. You know exactly when a round has been chambered and one ejected by both sound and feel. I can't tell you how many bolt rifle shooters I have seen who feel they have to look at their actions each time they go to chamber a round - or for that matter how many do not know how to work a bolt action properly.

I think my Husky is a Model 46 - it is the 98 action like the one pictured by DonW, but with a darker stock. I was amazed as to how well this rifle shot and even though I like my M48A (which I have 'tweaked'), I like my Husky better. Mikey.

Brithunter · « **Reply #71 on:** September 23, 2006, 07:49:05 AM »

Hi Guys,

Well the Husqvarna with the 96 (cock on close action) is the model 46, the 98 style action made by FN and used by Husqvarna was the model 146 as I understand it. Husqvarna made their own 96 actions and mine is one of those.

I have not loaded my Husqvarna up although I did have to go higher than the loads published in the Wolfe publishing "Book Big Bore Rifes and Cartridges" as at his top loads the cases were still not obturating and the primers were proud. Went up a little at a time until the cases came out clean and not smoked and the primers remained seated. I am using some Norma 235 grn semi spitzers but as I don' yet have a chrono , sorry the velocities are unknown.

Kombi,

I do not know what pressures this rifle is rated at so I just go carefully, a 235 grn bullet travelling somewhere about 2400 fps takes care of most beasties. One day I will get to chrongraph my loads and see just how near I am to that velocity. Now 2480fps would be wonderful as it beats the minimum required for use in Scotland comfortable as hte law requires a minimum velocity of 2450 fps with a minimum of 100 grain bullet producing a minimum 1700 ftlbs muzzle enregy to be legal in Scotland. In England the velocity does not matter at present just minmum calibre of .240" with 1700ft lbs muzzle energy.

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #72 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:35:00 AM »

I asked Dave Petzal via E mail and his response was this:

"Dear Mr. Hodge: I wish I could tell you that one was better than the other,
but the truth is that there is almost no difference. Both the 06 and the 8mm are
efficient, versatile cartridges, and you could use them on game from now until
the clap of doom without seeing any difference."

I personaly look at Petzal as the current dean of gun writers and honestly i think he is everybit as good as the classics like o'conner. His word is good enough for me!

k3yston3 · « **Reply #73 on:** January 31, 2007, 05:55:35 AM »

I am a really big 8mm fan, but I don't own a 8x57. I own an 8mm-06 AI, that is one of my favorite rifles and I would have a hard time getting rid of it if I had to. My rifle is a WWII built 98 that started out life as a 8x57 and was my first wildcat rifle. It kills slicker than snot... elk drop on the spot.

S.S. · « **Reply #74 on:** January 31, 2007, 06:15:56 AM »

Drop most anything else on the spot too !

I have several rifles chambered for the 8mm Mauser and with the exception of the Hakim,
I would take them after anything on the North American hemisphere. The Hakim
is too "Fat" to hunt with ! It is a heavy rifle.

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #75 on:** January 31, 2007, 11:38:25 AM »

The 8mm and the 30-06 are both great rounds....comparing them or debating their merits is just like comparisons of the .270 and the .280, or the 7mm Mag and the 30-06, etc. They all kill as far as anyone should be shooting as long as the bullet hits in the right spot. Shoot which ever one you like, go hunting, be happy.

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #76 on:** February 01, 2007, 02:37:45 AM »

.270-.280 i can see, but 7mag and .30-06? Common

kyelkhunter3006 · « **Reply #77 on:** February 01, 2007, 08:40:23 AM »

I've read a lot on-line and in the gun rags about the 30-06 vs 7 mag. One party goes for frontal area and bullet weight (30-06) and the other preaches trajectory and sectional density (7 mag). Kind of like how this whole post of 30-06 vs 8mm got started.

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #78 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:03:59 AM »

This is a great thread, were talking about 3 rounds on my all time top five list!

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #79 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:02:47 PM »

Any Thread about The 8x57, would be Great. Anyone Know if I can get those S&B 196 gr. SPCE Bullets for reloading???

Harold50 · « **Reply #80 on:** February 02, 2007, 01:31:15 PM »

Ditto on the bullets. Where?

I have two .323s. One is a G33-40 with an 18" barrel and the other is a 98 with a 21" barrel.
Just bought the 98 last fall and am still working up a load.
Both a far lighter to carry than the sporterized 03-A3 with its 24" barrel.
Neither 8x57s are as accurate as the old '06.

Seems that when I see deer I'm holding an in-line or the Model 700 .270, though.
Best wishes,
Harold

kombi1976 · « **Reply #81 on:** February 02, 2007, 03:20:43 PM »

I've got a bubba'd k98.
Since it was pitted when I bought it and the muzzle was shot I had the bbl lopped behind the front sight and re-crowned and also had the rear sight base sleeve removed before the barrelled action and floor plate were sandblasted & powdercoated.
It's cleaned the old girl up a lot.
However the reduction in the barrel diameter near the receiver means the original bedding is wrong and I have to re-bed it.
I've got some Hornady 150gn SP test loads ready to try when she's rebedded.
I used Varget in these.
I decided on the 150 grainers because most of the shooting I do is on medium or small game.
Hitting a roo with a 170gn or 180gn is a tad overkill and I'm aiming to develop a higher velocity load that's a little flatter shooting.
Mind you, I've also scored some 250gn RNSN Woodleighs which need some more trials.
They are SERIOUS overkill!

Drilling Man · « **Reply #82 on:** February 02, 2007, 04:49:58 PM »

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Anyone Know if I can get those S&B 196 gr. SPCE Bullets for reloading???

Have you tried 200 NP's yet? They sure have worked well for me!

DM

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #83 on:** February 02, 2007, 10:51:51 PM »

I haven't tried the 200 gr. NP's., But have loaded the 195 gr. Hornady's. I was looking for economy with the Sellier & Bellot. If I was Hunting Moose or Elk - Etc., I would definately go with The Noslers.

Mikey · « **Reply #84 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:37:29 AM »

I do not believe S&B sells their componets for reloading. And actually, I have a bunch of the S&B 196 gn Cutted Edge Soft Point that I can't shoot in my 98 Husky because it doesn't like them (every other dang 8mm I have loves them but not the one I scoped.........go figger). So I loaded up some 200 gn Nosler Accubonds (nize spitzer shape which the rifle loves) and some 195 gn Hornaday, over near max xcharges of V V powder, got 2500'/sec and one hole groups with both loads. This 8mm rifle now goes with me anywhere. Mikey.

Brithunter · « **Reply #85 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:27:38 AM »

Hi All,

Not sure about the US, but S&B does supply just componant bullets as I brought some for my 9.3mm and I also brought a coupleo f boxes of the 196 SPCE bullets for my 8mm but that's here in the UK of course.

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #86 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:41:55 AM »

I know what You mean, Mikey, My 98 will be on the rack, long after the others "could be gone". I've never neck sized for My 8x57, but going to try it. The original chamber seems to be a bit long. Sometimes it would like the S&B's, Sometimes not. Seems to like the 195 gr. Hornady backed by RL-15. I think that somewhere around a 200 gr. Bullet is where the 8x57 should be. 2500FPS with a .323 - 200 gr. Bullet, Why would I even look @ that New .338 Federal

?

Mckie Hollow · « **Reply #87 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:50:19 AM »

BritHunter - Do You suppose that the Truncated Cone on the SPCE, Be a Problem When Seating. I don't see a problem, but Maybe S&B uses a Special Die for These? Would You Know?

Drilling Man · « **Reply #88 on:** February 04, 2007, 05:52:39 AM »

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Do You suppose that the Truncated Cone on the SPCE, Be a Problem When Seating. I don't see a problem, but Maybe S&B uses a Special Die for These? Would You Know?

RCBS offers different seater plugs for different bullets. If your's it damageing the bullet tips, you can buy one that won't, or alter the one that you have...

DM

Mr. Joe · « **Reply #89 on:** February 17, 2007, 02:57:08 AM »

What have you all found to be the flattest shooting bullet weight. I was thinking the 170s. My balistic calculator shows them having less drop at 300 yards than the 150 grainers.