Author Topic: Black Mag 3 powder? (Read 1380 times)

shilo · « **on:** July 30, 2006, 12:18:17 PM »

Just read a thread which mentioned Black Mag 3 powder. What is it? Where is it available from? Less felt recoil - how is that possible? Thanks.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:14:27 PM »

Quote from: shilo on July 30, 2006, 12:18:17 PM

Just read a thread which mentioned Black Mag 3 powder. What is it? Where is it available from? Less felt recoil - how is that possible? Thanks.

Good luck finding it, I have not seen any in any of the gun shops I have been. Not very popular, stick with Pyrodex or triple 7, you can find that all over and at a lot better price. JMHO.

Busta · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2006, 04:56:17 PM »

Shilo,

Like Redhawk1 said, hard to find and not very good accuracy with conicals. Kind of a finicky powder and takes alot of work to find a good load. It will shoot pretty good with saboted bullets though.

If you are looking for a conical powder, 777 FFg & FFFG or Pyrodex Select, RS or P are better chioces. Swiss Black Powder is also another good one if you can find it. I use the 777 powder almost exclusively any more, I shot Pyrodex in my sidelock a couple weeks ago and forgot how much I don't like it. Once that can is gone I won't shoot Pyrodex again, I'm sure. 777 for me.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #3 on:** July 30, 2006, 10:25:31 PM »

Quote from: shilo on July 30, 2006, 12:18:17 PM

Just read a thread which mentioned Black Mag 3 powder. What is it? Where is it available from? Less felt recoil - how is that possible? Thanks.

I am one of the Black Mag'3 enthusiasts. I have tried Pyrodex, 777 both loose powder and pellets. 777 makes a bad crud ring in my Omega and the cleaning of that hard ring is a mess. I have to pull the breechplug after two shots to even get the short load out as I cannot bottom it on the second powder column. Personally I think 777 can be dangerous for a beginner as the crud ring can make a load very high pressure when it stops the bullet short of the powder charge. If you are not careful you may have higher than safe pressures. I tried both loose and pellets and several primers and even converted to the .25ACP using small rifle primers and the crud ring persists. Black Mag'3 does not cause that crud ring and several shots in a row without swab between are possible. I got higher velocity and less felt recoil with Black Mag'3 compared with similar charge of ffg Tripple Seven. The reason the recoil feels like less is that the initial burn rate is not the sharp presssure rise that 777 has which makes the recoil a sharp slap but tends to burn more like real black powder and the recoil is more of a push. I just bought some Tripple Seven primers and may try one last time to use the 777 powder I have on hand. I just hate thinking about all the trouble pulling the breechplug and pushing out the load when it won't seat on the powder. Three or four shots in a row with Black Mag'3 do not cause this problem and I have shot as many as five before even dropping a spit patch down the barrel. With a 300gr. bullet in a Harvester Sabot and 90 to 100gr. of Black Mag'3, I get excellent accuracy out to 100 yards. I have not shot beyond that as I don't need more than that for the area I hunt. As for avaiability, that is a problem. Midsouth Shooters Supply has shipped mine and I bought five pounds to keep the hazmat fee spread over several pounds. After my experience with the powder I wish I had bought more. The powder I have is several years old and they have made some minor improvements in consistency over the years. I think availability will soon get better.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2006, 01:06:03 AM »

shilo, the crud ring is not always a problem with triple 7. I have a new Pro-hunter M/L and I went to the range with it. I am using 120 gr. of loose triple 7 and Remington Kleen bore primers. I took 9 shots in a row without cleaning or swabbing the bore. I did not have one problem loading the gun even after the eighth shot. My accuracy stayed great also. The only reason I did not keep shooting the M/L after the ninth shot was, I moved my target out to 200 yards and wanted a clean barrel again to see how my groups would be. In my opinion Black Magic will never really catch on, there is just not enough people out there that want it, Black Magic and Black Magic 2 did not do so well and it looks like Black magic 3 will do the same. JMHO.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2006, 12:15:32 PM »

Redhawk (It is Black Mag'3 not "Black Magic") that aside I sure would like to know why some rifles shoot Tripple Seven apparently with no crud ring and some (like mine) won't regardless of the shape of the breechplug (I have tried all three that T/C makes for the Omega/Encore. I have not been able to find the Kleenbore primers but I would think the small rifle would clean up the mess if it is just too hot a primer. Apparently there are some Omega rifles that will shoot the 777 stuff. It seems that by now T/C or someone would have figured out what the differences are and corrected them. Maybe the Tripple Seven 209 primers will work. Sure hope so as the Tripple Seven is easier to find but the fffg version is not anywhere to be found in my part of Arizona. FFg and Pellets are all over the place but the fffg version is not. I shoot 300gr. bullets in sabots and have found that most of the people that do not have problems with 777 shoot lighter bullets. What "Magic" do you do to your bullets etc. if any?? Maybe a lubed wad below the bullet or something like that?? I have several pounds of 777 and a fair amount of pellets that sure would be nice to use.

simonkenton · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2006, 01:39:35 PM »

I used BlackMag3 in my cap and ball pistols. I like the stuff. Easy clean up. By the feel of the recoil it had a little more punch than black powder.
I got mine from Camela's. I see they don't sell it any more.
When I bought mine, Magkor was advertising the stuff as "non corrosive." Not true, I learned, it is corrosive.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2006, 02:26:09 PM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis on July 31, 2006, 12:15:32 PM

Redhawk (It is Black Mag'3 not "Black Magic") that aside I sure would like to know why some rifles shoot Tripple Seven apparently with no crud ring and some (like mine) won't regardless of the shape of the breechplug (I have tried all three that T/C makes for the Omega/Encore. I have not been able to find the Kleenbore primers but I would think the small rifle would clean up the mess if it is just too hot a primer. Apparently there are some Omega rifles that will shoot the 777 stuff. It seems that by now T/C or someone would have figured out what the differences are and corrected them. Maybe the Tripple Seven 209 primers will work. Sure hope so as the Tripple Seven is easier to find but the fffg version is not anywhere to be found in my part of Arizona. FFg and Pellets are all over the place but the fffg version is not. I shoot 300gr. bullets in sabots and have found that most of the people that do not have problems with 777 shoot lighter bullets. What "Magic" do you do to your bullets etc. if any?? Maybe a lubed wad below the bullet or something like that?? I have several pounds of 777 and a fair amount of pellets that sure would be nice to use.

Sorry about the Magic, my bad.

As far as me shooting with triple 7 and not having a problem, I don't do anything or use anything like lube or wads while shooting. I do however use bore butter in my barrels. When I first get a new M/L, I clean the barrel real good with a black powder solvent, I then use Break free on a patch, followed by a parch with bore butter on it. I then shot the gun without cleaning out the barrel with the bore butter in it, after I shoot and clean up the gun, I once again clean the barrel with black powder solvent, I then use Break free on a patch, followed by a parch with bore butter on it. It may be a combination of the break free and bore butter, but I could not tell you for sure. But I have done the same thing in all of my muzzleloader's with the same results. I do the same thing in my Shiloh Sharps because I shoot black powder cartridges in it. I like bore butter, I think it seasons the barrel.

Bullseye · « **Reply #8 on:** August 01, 2006, 07:05:29 AM »

A vendor at the Blackpowder shoot in Friendship, IN was telliing us that the breech plug in the new Pro Hunter barrels was re-designed in such a way to eliminate the crud ring. I forget the specifics which he told us. True or not, I do not know. Looks like T/C would promote it if it was the case, except then they would be admitting that the old breech plugs had a problem.

Personally I do not have much of a problem with my older Encore. I can reload 5 times without needing to clean for a crud ring.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #9 on:** August 01, 2006, 12:03:40 PM »

Redhawk: That certainly is different from how I treat my barrels and might be part of the solution. I know there is a debate as to whether you can "season" a new allow rifle barrel with bore butter. I guess if it works for you I certainly would not change it. I mentioned that I have all three breechplug face designs. Flat with a very small dimple at the touchhole. Partly concave with a flat ring around the concave portion and fully concave with no flat section. None of these seem to get rid of the crud ring for me. I think the concave with the flat ring around it is the latest and probably what the Omega comes with now. The concave section is supposed to help ignition of loose powder and the ring is supposed to prevent crushing pellets so you can shoot either. My .25ACP conversion has the concave with the ring shape.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 01, 2006, 12:17:34 PM »

Keith Lewis, like I said I don't really know if that is it, but it works for me. I am hoping that may just be others problems also. I hope you find a solution to your problem and are able to use triple 7 again.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #11 on:** August 01, 2006, 09:56:57 PM »

I would like to try fffg 777 but no one locally seems to stock it and based on the poor experience I had with ffg 777 I sure would not order it and pay the hazmat fee. Some claim it burns cleaner in their rifles. I know the APP and Goex Pinnacle ffg is very coarse and when I ordered those I got the fffg versions, Black Mag'3 of course only comes as a fffg. I hve not tried it in my NEF Huntsman yet and that is another possiblity for using up what I have if that rifle likes it. I have the .25ACP conversion for the Huntsman also even though I have not shot it yet. I really like the .25 brass due to easier handling compared with the 209 primers. Just got my Simmons 1.5-5 power Prodiamond illuminated scope today (Sportsmans Guide had them for $89). As soon as I get it mounted on the Huntsman I plan to do some development with that one. Got to get my elk medicine figured out since I got a tag this year. Did not get drawn last year and meat supply is getting low.

Hammerspur · « **Reply #12 on:** August 03, 2006, 01:36:32 AM »

I, too am a fan of Black Mag 3, although I've only had experience with the original stuff from "ARCO Powder Co." now defunct. It was so much better to work with than cruddy Pyrodex, so I stocked up on it at that time.. it also outshone the other 'new' offerings available at the time immensely: "Clean Shot" and that crappy "Black Canyon" junk!

I'm way behind on testing and tuning my rifles, range work, etc. due to other of life's unfortunate impositions, so I haven't had a chance to try out the new Magkor Black Mag 3 or even attempt to secure some. Here is their website's 'where to buy' page for anyone interested... don't know how recently it's been updated, mind you:

http://www.magkor.com/buyme.html

Steve

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 03, 2006, 02:06:40 AM »

Quote from: Keith Lewis on August 01, 2006, 12:03:40 PM

Redhawk: That certainly is different from how I treat my barrels and might be part of the solution. I know there is a debate as to whether you can "season" a new allow rifle barrel with bore butter. I guess if it works for you I certainly would not change it. I mentioned that I have all three breechplug face designs. Flat with a very small dimple at the touchhole. Partly concave with a flat ring around the concave portion and fully concave with no flat section. None of these seem to get rid of the crud ring for me. I think the concave with the flat ring around it is the latest and probably what the Omega comes with now. The concave section is supposed to help ignition of loose powder and the ring is supposed to prevent crushing pellets so you can shoot either. My .25ACP conversion has the concave with the ring shape.

Try some of the New Win Triple Se7en 209's. See if they work for you.

Here's What Winchester says about their new offering:

Winchester Ammunition has introduced a new primer specifically designed for use in muzzle loader guns that use a 209 size primer.

The new primer is called the Winchester® Triple Se7en® Primer. It was designed specifically for Hodgdon Triple Se7en® and Pyrodex® pellets but also works great on loose black powder and black powder substitutes.
Most of today’s modern muzzle loading in-line rifles are designed to use a size 209 shotshell primer. These primers deliver a hot flash, which gives a consistent ignition of the black powder or pellets being used. The down side to these hot primers is the chance for build up of a fouling ring in the barrel of the gun which hinders follow-up loading for second or multiple shots.

Winchester’s Triple Se7en Primer is a clean burning primer that reduces fouling ring buildup, allowing muzzle loader shooters easy second shot loadings.

The new Triple Se7en Primer has a unique look with a black cap to distinguish it from other 209 primers. These primers are clam packed 100 per package with clearly marked graphics to separate them from other primers.

The new Triple Se7en Primer from Winchester is the natural choice for any muzzle loading shooter who uses 209 primers.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #14 on:** August 03, 2006, 05:29:01 AM »

Redhawk: I just found some of the 777 primers at the local Walmart. They are just starting to stock the muzzleloading stuff for this year. There is only one Walmart store in the whole east valley of the Phoenix area that stocks black powder stuff. All the rest stock some guns but no black powder. I have not found any at the local gun shops but they really don't want to sell black powder guns anyway. Maybe Sportsmans Warehouse (which just finally came here) will stock them eventually. We also now have a Cabelas but it is in Phoenix and approximately 35 miles from me in city traffic. I plan to try them out in my particularly "777 bad" Omega when the weather cools down a little. Walmart prices are usually high on the primers as they pass the hazmat fees on individual items and apparently do not stock enough ORMD hazardous to defray the costs. If they work in my Omega then they really have something. I have not tried all the small rifle primers but the Winchester ones do not fix the crud ring in my gun. I had planned to try other small rifle primers when I got time. When 777 works it is great stuff but the crud ring makes it unusable for me when hunting.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 03, 2006, 07:56:02 AM »

Keith, I am using the CCI small rifle primers in my 25 ACP cases. One of my 50 cal's and my 45 cal and both don't get a crud ring at all. My new 50 cal Pro-hunter is doing good with the Remington kleen bore primers and I just pick up some Winchester triple 7 primers to try also.

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #16 on:** August 03, 2006, 04:39:21 PM »

I'm getting a little off subject here but the illuminated Simmons scope does not work for me due to the rear bell being much larger than the standard scope of the same power. I would have to go to a tall set of rings to clear the hammer on the NEF Huntsman. Am sending it back to source but found the non-illuminated 1.5-5X32 at CDNN Sports in Texas for $59.99 plus 9.99 shipping. Once that gets here I will get back to sorting out either the Omega or the Huntsman going elk hunting with me. Others wanted $179 for the same scope. Go figure?

Keith Lewis · « **Reply #17 on:** August 03, 2006, 04:44:29 PM »

I tried to modify the post but the system would not let me. I was going to add that I think I have some CCI primers that I can add to the evaluation once I get to the range. I also found some fffg 777 at a local gun shop today at $21 a pound. Did not buy any yet.

dmurphy317 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 03, 2006, 10:07:35 PM »

I bought some of the Black Mag 3 last fall from Cabelas. I was hoping it would work for the heavier conicals I was working up for elk. After shooting a few at 50 yards and only one hitting the 2'x2' target, I decided it did not work with large conicals. I then tried it on some 250 Shockwaves and it worked quite well. I still haven't fully checked it out but so far it only seems to work on lighter bullets. At $30+ a pound I'm not sure I will be buying much of it though.

At the local Sportsmans Warehouse, I can get 777 in 2 and 3 F for around $18 a pound. In one of my guns, I have no real issues with a crud ring (10+ shots with some bullets without swabbing). In the other gun I get an instant crud ring on the first shot. The second gun is newer snd so the barrel may not have settled in yet but the breach plug is of a different design also. The gun with no issues has a plug designed to have some blow back, the other one does not. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the difference but it may be.

David

shilo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 04, 2006, 02:01:04 PM »

Redhawk , thanks for the info on the 777 primers. I'm going to see if I can find them. Might also look into the 25 acp cases. I do alot of reloading so that's not a problem. Besides the potential ignition benefits, how are the cases to handle? Easy to put in the muzzleloader and take out?

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #20 on:** August 04, 2006, 02:20:58 PM »

Quote from: shilo on August 04, 2006, 02:01:04 PM

Redhawk , thanks for the info on the 777 primers. I'm going to see if I can find them. Might also look into the 25 acp cases. I do alot of reloading so that's not a problem. Besides the potential ignition benefits, how are the cases to handle? Easy to put in the muzzleloader and take out?

The great part about the 25 ACP cases is, they are a lot easier to install and remove than the 209 primers. I cut a strip of foam that I put the 25 ACP cases in when hunting. It is easy to just push the 25 ACP cases through the hole in the foam and into the breech plug. I can carry as many 25 ACP cases as I want or need. Just cut a strip of foam about 1/2 inch thick and make small cuts through the foam. The case will slide in and can be pushed through easily. The foam grips the cases well also.

str8shooter48 · « **Reply #21 on:** August 04, 2006, 02:52:03 PM »

Quote from: Redhawk1 on August 04, 2006, 02:20:58 PM

Quote from: shilo on August 04, 2006, 02:01:04 PM
Redhawk , thanks for the info on the 777 primers. I'm going to see if I can find them. Might also look into the 25 acp cases. I do alot of reloading so that's not a problem. Besides the potential ignition benefits, how are the cases to handle? Easy to put in the muzzleloader and take out?

The great part about the 25 ACP cases is, they are a lot easier to install and remove than the 209 primers. I made a strip of foam that I put the 25 ACP cases in when hunting. It is east to just push the 25 ACP cases through the hole in the foam and into the breech plug. I can carry as many 25 ACP cases as I want or need. Just cut a strip of foam about 1/2 inch thick and make small cuts through the foam. The case will slide in and can be pushed through easily. The foam grips the cases well also.

Redhawk Good tip. I was looking for something to hold my 25 acp cases. I almost went as far as going to the gun shows and looking for a 25acp magazine. I have plenty of foam around the house I'm going to give that a whirl.

Thanks

doegirl · « **Reply #22 on:** August 05, 2006, 10:18:07 AM »

Like Redhawk, I too use borebutter in my encore. I tried without for a period of time, and got much more fouling from triple 7. I also switched primers to the new triple 7 primers. They work as advertised and will be the only primer I'll use from now on. I have not tried any of the alternative powders like black mag 3 due to lack of availability.