.223 primer problem

[netcott]

Just joined the sight and I would like to say that there seems to be a lot of good information here.  I have a question about my nef .223.  I have owned a nef that I bought with the .223 bull barrel about 10 years ago.  I have always had problems with the primer forming back into the firing pin hole well before I hit my charge weights (according to my lee book).  If I try approaching 27.5 grains of varget with a 50 grain bullet and cci 400 primers I will get a primer that pushes back into the firing pin hole which require cocking and refiring in order to open the action.  Other than the primer distortion near the firing pin I see no other signs of pressure (primer is not flattened).  I have tried other primers with no improvement and the only way to cure it is to reduce charge to around 24 grains of varget.

However if I put the same barrel and same loads on my h&r ultra reciever I can shoot the max loads with no problem.  I can not visual see any differences in the firing pin hole clearance.

Any help would be appreciated.

[mt3030]

I think the firing pin and firing pin hole needs to be checked. If the hole is oversized (like on some shot gun frames), under pressure the primer is allowed to expand into the hole.  Do you know for sure it has always been a rifle frame? Also, if the firing pin has at any time been replaced, an undersized pin from a older model H&R might of been used. Good luck.

[netcott]

I bought new as a sb2 handi rifle with the .223 barrel on it.  serial number nk 375810.  The firing pin broke on a prairie dog hunt and I replaced it afterwords.  However it had the problem before that.  I did forget to mention that I have no problems when shooting the 45-70 barrel that nef installed on the same reciever.

[Fred M]

You have an over size firing pin hole or an under size firing pin.

Best thing to do is send it to H&R and have them fix it, or have a custom firing pin made, or a bushing installed in the hole to fit the existing pin.

[netcott]

Is there something that would have caused an oversized firing pin hole, or did it come that way from the factory.  It has been 10 years since I bought the rifle so I can't recall if it did it right away or if it started after I had put some rounds through it.

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

As a learner to this hand loading stuff, I am curious about your 223 load. I noticed that the Varget load you are using is listed as maximum load for the 50 grain bullet and is considered a "compressed" load. One question I have is are you crimping the mouth, if so, are you using a heavy crimp?
Second question, have you tried CCI 450 primers? My Lyman manual lists the small rifle magnum for 223.

Sorry I couldn't offer any help for you problem of primer flow into the firing pin hole.

William

[netcott]

27.5 grains of varget does fill the case just past the shoulder and I do use a lee crimp die.  As to if its light or not I guess I would say that it is heavy enough to show marks on the brass but does not deform the bullet.  I guess I crimp out of habit because I also load for an ar-15 and I have found that without the crimp some of the bullets will move when used in a magezine.

[Trapper-Jack]

Take a look at the following web site:
http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
According to this study, the CCI 400 is made of a thinner material (.020) than the 450's or BR4's (.025).  It's a pretty good read to understand that all primers aren't the same.

[Norseman112]

I used RCBS dies and Lee collect for my .223 (like the collect die the best). As far as the primer problem I would send it back to H&R as Fred has pointed out.

Good luck,

John

[stimpylu32]

Netcott

The first thing i would do is call H&R's CS and explain the problem to them and see what they say . Also try a diffrent brand of primer and some diffrent powders may solve the problem .

[Paul5388]

Since the barrel shoots fine on the other frame, I think we can rule out a barrel problem, or can we?  The barrel includes the lug and that may be where it all lies.  There may be a little too little pin socket to receiver distance, which would create a headspace problem.  That would normally show up as too much barrel to frame/receiver gap and can be checked with a set of feeler gauges.  This would explain the primer backing out enough to jam things until it is reset by striking again with the firing pin. 

BTW, I use 27.2 gr of Varget with a 60 gr V-Max and CCI 400, so the load isn't a problem as far as my barrel is concerned.

[Fred M]

Paul.
A backed out primer due to excessive head space is not locking up the barrel on a smooth standing breech.

Only when the primer extrudes into the gap between the f-pin and the the pin hole will the barrel lock up. It matters not whether there is headspace or not.

The problem is not going away until it is fixed as I mentioned before.

[Paul5388]

Fred,

You seem to forget I use several SB1 frames with large firing pin holes and I don't have that problem. 

I'll also say you aren't going to alter the crater, that you say is extruding back into the firing pin hole, by striking the primer a  second time.  It's reseating the primer when it hits the second time.  It would have to be one heck of a crater for it to lock the action up and you aren't going to get that kind of crater with that load, with a CCI 400, as evidenced by the Ultra frame shooting it just fine.

[Fred M]

Paul.
So what is the answer. When you say you don't have that trouble with your SB1 frame, you obviously have the pressure under control. To extrude a pimer into a gap you need a heck of a lot more pressure than a regular load produces, me thinks?

Just because he uses a regular load is not to say he does not get high pressure.
With these littles 223 cases it is very easy to get high pressure. 75K is not unusual if you have a thick long and a crimped neck. No radial clearance. Load into the lands. A poor scale will do it by adding extra powder, and a few other things I won't mention.

In a sporting rifle with jacketed bullet a crimp is not needed. of course there are a few exceptions.The 223 is not included.You can actually thicken the neck with a crimp and hold the bullet without radial clearance. Then you are realy smoking.

I have a hunch with a good factory load the barrel wont hang up.

[Paul5388]

Fred,

I suppose we need to consider how many bullets, that a .223 Handi will stabilize, can be jammed into the lands. 

When you don't have a flattened primer, as he said, do you really think it's an over pressure load?

Have you ever tried to close a cylinder on a high primer? 

Have you ever shot a primed case in a revolver?  It'll lock the cylinder up tight from a backed out primer.

Faulty scale when the load shoots fine on another frame with the same barrel?

However if I put the same barrel and same loads on my h&r ultra reciever I can shoot the max loads with no problem.

Where did he say anything about crimping and why wouldn't still be a problem on the other frame?

 The firing pin hole on a SB1 is visibly larger than the hole in a SB2, yet he says,

I can not visual see any differences in the firing pin hole clearance.

Every objection you've posted is negated by the load shooting fine on another frame with the same barrel.

[netcott]

It is definatly the primer flowing into the firing pin hole and not the primer backing out.  After recocking and firing to get the barrel open you can look at the primer and still see the raised circle with the firing pin depression in the center.  Refiring the round just ends up concaving the rest of the primer so that there is clearance to open the round.  As I mentioned before the primer shows no other signs of high pressure, the perimeter of the primer is still nice and rounded instead of flattened.  When I look at the firing pin holes between my h&r frame and my nef frame I can see a slightly larger hole on the nef frame.  Is this a result of having certain number of rounds through the gun or did this possibly happen when I had a broken firing pin.  I can't say for sure how long the pin was broken before I noticed it becuase the gun still shot fine, one day I noticed that if I tilted the gun forward with the breech open end of the firing pin tip would become exposed.  The nef frame will shot my 45-70 fine, but I know that is a lot less pressure.  Also, I should mention that if you really try you can get the barrel to open, and if it does open you can see where it just smears the part of the primer that was causing the problem.  I guess I will try the thicker primers and getting rid of the crimp to see what happens.  I will let everyone know next week because I plan on going out the weekend to try the o-ring trick to see if I can get my groups better.

How much will the factory charge me to fix the reciever if it is an oversized firing pin hole?

[netcott]

just went to the range and tried some factory round using both the h&r and nef reciever and primer had the same problems using the nef reciever so it must have something to do with that reciever.  Although it did open after shooting you could see where it had started to flow into the firing pin hole where the primer looked fine using h&r reciever.  I will end up sending it back.