Trail boss powder recipies?

[Will52100]

Well finaly got some trail boss powder.  Got to like how light and fluffy it is.  The load data I could find suggest 5.8 as max for 45 colt with 250 grain cast bullet.  I've loaded and shot a few at 5.5 grains and it shoots well, but velocity is still pretty mild.

Also what's a good load for 44 colt, 200 grain bullet?

Thanks,

[quickdtoo]

Have ya been to IMR's web site?

http://imrpowder.com/data/handgun/trailboss-feb2005.php

[Will52100]

Yep, first place I looked, but the info is a little spoty.  No specs on primmer, and differant barrel lengths, and just how hot is 5.8 grains in 45 colt anyway?  Rite now I'm sticking to 5.5 grains, but wouldn't mind pushing the velocity just a bit.  5.5 seems pretty mild, a bit milder than the 7 grains of Unique that I've been using anyway.

[dubber123]

I called and talked to a tech for info on a powder suggestion for an oddball cartridge/gun combo (50-70 Govt. in a 6-1/2" Contender).  The tech suggested Trailboss, and having no load data for this cartridge, gave me the following formula, which he said has worked great for all straight wall cartridges.  First, find out where the base of a loaded bullet comes to, mark the case, fill to this point with Trailboss.  70% of this weight is your START load.  Work up from there, but under no circumstances compress this powder, it breaks the flakes, and drastically changes the burn rate.  This powder is great even in my  app. (big case, very short barrel).  I wanted 850 fps. with a 450 gr. bullet, with Trailboss, I got 868 fps. with a 6 fps. variation (!). EXTREMELY clean and accurate.  I have also read in another gun mag that this is a very "good natured" powder, not inclined to do anything funny if loaded properly.  For your mellower loads, I think you'll like it.  Hope this helps.

[Will52100]

Thanks, I was wondering as the listed max load for 45 colt is 5.8, but that's just about half full.  I could almost get a double charge before seating the bullet, but not quite and it'd be pretty easy to see.  I would love to see more load data on this powder.  From what little I've used it I'm starting to realy like it.  But shooting in an 1860 henry and 73 clone I don't want to hot rod it.  For hunting loads I'll stick to black powder.

[jd45]

I checked the IMR website suggested, and found the top load gave 727fps? w/250gr bullet. Is that a squib load? Or just for CAS? I guess that's what this powder was designed for, wasn't it? Don't get me wrong...........I wouldn't want to be standing in front of a 250gr, .45 caliber bullet traveling @ 727fps w/o some serious body armor. I'd just want more velocity @ standard pressure, JD45

[Patriot_1776]

I see apparent disappointment amongst members here about Trail Boss's velocities.  I also feel that some might be inclined to suggest stepping up the action by knocking a few more granules of powder in there. 

Remember gents, this was specifically designed for CAS with lead bullets.  What helps a cowboy most?  Fast followup shots.  What helps make for fast followup shots?  Light recoil.  What helps make for light recoil?  You might have guessed it, but it is either lighter bullets or smaller charges of powder.  Of course some cowboys might like to have the standard weight bullets often used back in the day (or maybe stubborn steel robbers that don't go down), so lighter bullets are out.

This powder's premier design is very light, fluffy, with a high volume to weight ratio.  Some of those cowboys get too carried away with loading such bare minimum charges of other smokeless powders in their guns, they can overlook one or several rounds completely.  Combine this situation causing a barrel obstruction, as well as another round being touched off, or even a double charge with something like Bullseye, and I think you can guess what happens.

Trail Boss happens to produce lower velocities with lead bullets; but the primary focus was to make a high volume to weight ratio powder in an effort to help prevent missing charges (or even double charges.)  I've used this stuff; its a great powder.  IMO the only reason a reloader would miss a charge with TB would be poor eyesight.

[leverfan]

Well said, Patriot.  Trail Boss excells at delivering exactly the performance it was designed for.  If someone wants more velocity, use a different powder.

[jd45]

Right on, Leverfan..............JD45

[jd45]

Right on, Leverfan..............JD45

[Will52100]

Thanks guys, I wasn't realy looking to push the velocity to 1000 fps, just up it a bit.  The main reason I wanted to try trail boss is that 7-8 grains of Unique, a fair sized powder itself, is lost in that big case.

Since for hunting and matches I use full bore black powder loads, this is more for plinking than anything.  I do like the ease of loading and it even meters pretty good through my lee powder measure.  I'll probably stick with it even if 5.8 is as hot as I can go.  I would love to see some detailed load data though.

[dubber123]

I see no reason that this powder can't be treated as any other, start low, and work up until the desired power level is reached, or you encounter any signs of pressure, at which point you should back down.  When I get a chance, I will experiment with this powder in my 45 Colts, for the simple reason that it excels at filling this large case.  I suspect that if I can get a 400+ gr. .50 cal bullet to 868 fps out of a 6 1/2" barrel (not subtracting for the 1 3/4" case), with 0 pressure signs, and awesome uniformity, (6 fps. variation), I can probably get a standard weight 45 Colt up to standard velocities without high pressures.  I will let you know.

[PaulS]

I see no reason that this powder can't be treated as any other, start low, and work up until the desired power level is reached, or you encounter any signs of pressure, at which point you should back down.  When I get a chance, I will experiment with this powder in my 45 Colts, for the simple reason that it excels at filling this large case.  I suspect that if I can get a 400+ gr. .50 cal bullet to 868 fps out of a 6 1/2" barrel (not subtracting for the 1 3/4" case), with 0 pressure signs, and awesome uniformity, (6 fps. variation), I can probably get a standard weight 45 Colt up to standard velocities without high pressures.  I will let you know.

Dubber,
the standard velocities for the 45 Colt is 850 fps with a 250 grain bullet. That is exactly what the powder was made for.
Powders are designed to do specific jobs - some want to be loaded in magnum cases to a minimum of 95% load density and others are designed for small cases or small charges in large cases with a medium weight bullet seated right over the powder. This powder is designed to take up a lot of room with a light charge so that you can load light charges in large cases without the fear of double charges going un noticed like with Bullseye. use a 200 grain JHP and 12 grains of HS6 or 9.8 grains of Unique. If you want to shoot cowboy loads then shoot black powder or Trail Boss. Either way I feel like quoting that line that you find with all reputable data:
Never exceed maximum listed loads
It just seems like good advice.

[dubber123]

In previous posts, it was indicated that top velocity was just over 700 fps. which is a bit off of a standard load, which was what started this topic in the beginning.  I looked on IMR's site, and notice that the pressure listed is a little over 3,000 psi short of the industry standard listed in my Speer manual, which isn't a lot, but perhaps enough to get closer to a standard load, which is what the origional poster sounded like he may have been looking for.  I noted that in some cartridges, IMR goes over 21,000 psi, so it isn't a pressure limitation that kept their Colt data low.  I suspect it's aimed at the cowboy action crowd, I just can't see that if a powder can operate safely at a higher than listed pressure, how a problem could be encountered working up to SAAMI pressure limits.

[PaulS]

not to start an argumentbut I may not have explained my point well. The powder is designed to take up lots of space. If you load higher than listed loads you could have a powder with a very gentle pressure rise and have lots of notice before you see it spike. On the other hand it may spike right away and send the pressure way past the dangerous level. We as end users have no way to know what a powder will do at higher than maximum listed loads.
Some slow powders can generate very high pressures at reduced loadings, which you would think is as backwards as can be.
Some very fast powders like Bullseye is very sensitive to case volume reduction. a load for a 150 grain bullet in a 38 can be very dangerous with a wad cutter over it that weighs just a bit less than the bullet the load is rated for- the only difference is the volume of air left in the case. Some Powders are very good in some cartridges when compressed while the same powder in a different case or a different powder in the same case can be very dangerous when compressed.

We just don'y have the information and understanding of powders to ignore warnings from the powder manufacturer or representative to exceed the load limits that they list. We might be able to put two grains additional into the case and see no problems but we might put .2 additional powder into a case and have a big problem.
This powder has a warning in bold print that warns against exceeding maximum loads - in addition to the warning that is else-where in the data. It is apparent to me that there is something about this powder that warrants the additional warning. I don't know what it is but I don't want to put my gun, my health or even my life on the line to find out. I don't want anyone to do that without full knowledge of what they are risking. It gives shooting and shooters a bad name each time one person tries to go boldly where no one has gone before and gets hurt or hurts others. The media loves that sort of thing.

[dubber123]

As a fast burning powder, ( IMR told me on the phone that it is faster burn-rate wise than Bullseye,) although in my experience with the one cartridge I have used it in, that doesn't seem the case, I would expect you are right that it may produce pressure spikes with comparatively small increases, although again, this hasn't been my experience.  It is possible that in the Colt, a few tenths more jumped it too close to SAAMI max, so they chose to drop the charge to account for any possible variables when loading, (thick brass, inaccurate scales).  So perhaps you are right to suggest staying with their specs, especially if loading for origional Colts or their clones.  That said, I will probably carefully fiddle with it in my 625 S&W.  It has proven less spikey than Unique in my 50-70, but maybe the smaller Colt case will be different.

[PaulS]

I wish you good fortune with your experiments and pray that you are not injured and those around you are safe too. If I was 20 years younger, and using a Contender or Ruger I may do the same thing. There have been times that my brother and I tied guns to trees and set them off with a long string - affraid of what the results might be. So when I recommend that others be careful it is from direct experience with other but similar situations. we only blew up one gun and that was with a load that I would have sworn was ok to use..... Yep, we tied a few guns to trees back then - I just follow the recommendations in the manuals now.
Good luck and may your guardian angel stand between you and others and any harm.

[Will52100]

Thanks Guys, haven't exceded the max, am pretty well sticking with 5.5 grains, max is 5.8.  I haven't put it through a chrony, but it seems comparible to my Unique loads, with the exception that it "sounds" a little less sharp and more consistant, and is so far very acurate.  One primary reason I didn't want to bring pressure up very far is that I shoot a clone 73 peacemaker and an 1860 henry, neigther of which handle high pressure very well.  Now if I still had my old Vaquero I might be tempted.  I run about a hundred rounds of each through my revolver and couldn't tell the differance between the two powders except by sound and then only if I mixed them in the cylinder.  So far I'm very pleased with this powder and will be getting more as needed.