Got any drawings

[gary michie]

Hi: :-D
Just want to say hi and ask if any one has a plan drawing of a pack mountain howitzer. I'm starting a full scale civil war Gatling gun and need plans for a small carriage the one at Springfield  does'nt look like a field carriage its more like a naval carriage. Any format will is all right I have solid works and cad capabilities.
thank you
gary

[moose53]

A Gatling gun is a ambitious project,please document your progress with photos.I have plans for a Gatling gun and would like to build one after I finish a few cannons 

[GGaskill]

I'll have some plans for the major parts of the pack carriage available in a few days but for all the details, you should get folio No. 25 from Antique Ordnance Publishers.  $10 plus $5 shipping for a lot more than just a couple of drawings.

[gary michie]

Hi:
If you go to Gary's Website you will see a few drawings and my Parrott all so at the bottom of the page there is a link to my other web site.
I am planning on having the piece done by memorial day next year we have a reenactment that weekend and I'm planning a gun saleman's scenario.
Question------ Do you guys think as I do that the Colt Springfield armory carriage is a navy piece? right now I cann't remember the wheel dia. but I do remember on hearing the size I was surprised they were small . 32"? Well I would appreciate your input.
gary

[moose53]

Nice web page ,enjoyed the photos of your Parrott and the drawings of your Gatling gun. Thanks for posting.

[GGaskill]

The pack carriage wheels are 38" diameter.

[Double D]

Weren't the smaller Gatling carriages sold as Police andRiot control items and navel carriages.  I don't have access to my Gatling book or I would probably be able to come up with an answer.

[gary michie]

  HI:
 The problem with this carrriage is it was sopposed to be for sale to military  at war at the time out in the feild. Miles Greenwood & company  Made smooth bore bronze cannon,rifled gun  and howitzers at a cost to the goverment of $84,000 at the same time they were making  type 1 1862 gatling guns. I think they had a good idea what a field carriage was and what size a 285 lb. piece would need. The littleblack----- now that is another weirdness black not green ,any way it just wrong.

[Double D]

Gary,

Do want actual plans or would pictures help from which you could scale plans?

Here are some references found on www.abebooks.com.  Just go to www.abebooks.com and query the book title to order.  To get this list I just queried the word Gatling in Key word under advanced search. Of course I got every book with a title, author or description using the word Gatling, a total of 455 hits..

The Gatling Gun Notebook
James B. Hughes - Compiler
Bookseller:
Standard Book Service
(Standard, CA, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 17.00
Description: A Collection of Data and Illustrations from Contemporary Sources - Chapters include: American-Made Gatling Gun Models - U.S. Gov't Purchases - Springfield Armory - American Surplus Sales - Gatling Gun Makers - Foreign Purchases and Users - Patents - Carriages, Limbers and Mounts - Magazines and Implements - Ammunition. Indexed, 152 pages, ads, original cover price $23.00. Minor usage, tiny stain on page edge. Bookseller Inventory # 00411

The Gatling Gun
Wahl, Paul & Donald R. Toppel
Bookseller:
ACORN BOOKSHOP, INC.
(columbus, OH, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 17.50
Description: 168 pp. Hardcover, bound in tan cloth with dustwrapper. Moderate shelf-wear with some soiling and edgewear. Prior owner's name on the inside cover. Note: Additional postage may be required for this title. Bookseller Inventory # 005850

GATLING GUNS
ELLIOTT, ARTHUR H.   
Bookseller:
Book Look
(Otisville, NY, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 24.00
Description: 4 PAGE(S). PHOTOCOPY PAGES. UNBOUND. FOR REFERENCE. THESE ARE PHOTOCOPIES FROM SCARCE AND RARE PERIODICALS AND BOOKS OF THE 19TH AND EARLY 20TH CENTURY. THIS IS RESEARCH MATERIAL FOR REFERENCE AND IS NOT A BOOK THIS REFERENCEIS FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY. IT MAY NOT BE REPRODUCED FOR COMMERCIAL USE. BY ORDERING THIS REFERENCE YOU ARE AGREEING TO THESE TERMS. VERY GOOD PLUS. Bookseller Inventory # 924456

Gatling Gun: 19th Century Machine Gun to 21st Century Vulcan.
Berk, Joseph
Bookseller:
Military Books
(Washington, DC, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 25.00
Description: 129p. Photos. Large tear on back of jacket, taped. FINE/VERY GOOD COPY. Bookseller Inventory # 47-27

Gatling A Photogaphic Remembrance
E. Frank Stephenson, Jr.
Bookseller:
Chequered Past
(Jacksonville Beach, FL, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 25.00
Description: Maroon solfcover fades downward to pink at the bottom of the front, it has been folded halfway top to bottom and has the color scratched off in many places along the edges with one torn spot about an inch in - two inches from the bottom on the front edge, bottom corners are turned up for about fifty pages. Black and white photos throughout. Signed by the author on the cover page. Bookseller Inventory # 003702
 
ACCLES MACHINE GUN, CARRIAGES & MOUNTS (1892)
J Accles (inventor)
Bookseller:
Naval and Military Press Ltd
(Uckfield, East Sussex, UK, United Kingdom)
Book Price:
US$ 25.37
Description: 2004 N & M Pres reprint (original pub 1892). SB. 49pp, 24 coloured plates. This is a sales brochure for the Accles machine gun, which was a competitor in the machine gun race of the late 19th Century when the weapon was beginning to revolutionise warfare. The Accles was an improved Gatling-type weapon, with a battery of rotating barrels. The book promotes the weapon with the aid of 4 black and white plates and 24 colour line drawings. Included are instructions for using the gun when mounted on a naval landing carriage, and a complete description of the Accles including weights and dimensions, tools and spare parts. There are also includes instructions on stripping and assembling the gun, as well as firing and clearing jams and other stoppages. This is a rare book of interest to all firearms enthusiasts. Although the Accles was not issued officially, records show that it was used on some occasions by independent business companies against pirates in the Far East. Bookseller Inventory # 8587

SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN -- March 19, 1892 --
Munn & Co
Bookseller:
JB Company USA
(Humboldt, TN, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 42.00
Description: Pictorial Cover. Very Good +++. First Edition - Original Issue. Folio - over 12" - 15" tall. -- This is an original, complete issue of 16 pages dated March 19, 1892 -- Vol. 66, No. 12 -- Illustrated -- covers and contents are tight, very nice condition -- The Front page has an excellent engraving with article titled "Gatling Gun For Police Patrol Service", this unusual system shows a police patrol wagon being pulled by two horses and mounted on the rear of the wagon is this special Gatling Gun -- Page 178 has three engravings showing the latest in "Speaking Tubes" -- Page 183 has an engraving of the Largest Water Wheel located Isle Of Man -- Many other inventions and improvements with fascinating advertisements -- An excellent opportunity for the collector and researcher. -- Frank Luther Mott, winner of The Pulitzer Prize for his History of American Magazines, states that "The Scientific American had a significance--at least for its first sixty or seventy years--unapproached in kind and effect by any other periodical". ---- Historical Events Are Never More Exciting Than When You Read Them From The Day They First Occurred And Were Reported In Newspapers and Magazines ----. Bookseller Inventory # 001434
 
HARPER'S WEEKLY -- May 7, 1898 -- Original Complete Issue --
Harper & Brothers
Bookseller:
JB Company USA
(Humboldt, TN, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 52.00
Description: . This is an Original, complete issue of 24 pages dated May 7, 1898 -- Vol. 42, No. 2159 -- Pages are tight, nice condition -- Profusely Illustrated -- The Front Page has a full page illustration drawn by T. De Thulstrup titled "Recruiting For The War In New York City" -- Page 436 has a full page of 7 photo illustrations titled "U.S. Naval Vessels In Commodore Dewey's Expedition To Spain's Possessions In The Philippines" -- Page 437 has a full page of 5 illustrations drawn by W.A. Rogers titled "Washington--Activity In The Navy Department" -- Page 440 has a full page of 6 photo illustrations titled "Mobilizing The Army--U.S. Regulars In Camp At Key West, Tampa, and Mobile" -- Page 441 has a full page of 9 photo portrait illustrations titled "Commanding Generals Of The United States Army" -- Page 442 has a full page of 8 photo illustrations titled "Mobilizing The Army--U.S. Regulars In Camp At Chickamauga and New Orleans" -- Page 443 has a full page of 4 photo illustrations titled "Mobilizing The Army--U.S. Regulars In Camp At Mobile and Chickamauga" -- Pages 444 and 445 contain a double page centerfold illustration drawn by Carlton T. Chapman titled "With The North Atlantic Fleet At Key West" -- Page 448 has a Portrait photo illustration of Dr. Richard Jordan Gatling Inventor of the Gatling Gun, at Age of Eighty -- Page 449 has 3 illustrations drawn by C. McKnight Smith titled "The 'Maine' Showing Position of Bottom Plates and Keel, Affording Proof of External Explosion" -- Page 453 has a full page of 9 Portrait Photo Illustrations titled "Executive Officers Of United States Naval Vessels With The North Atlantic Fleet" -- Many Other Articles and Illustrations -- An excellent opportunity for the Researcher, Historian and Collector -- Over one Thousand issues of Harper's Weekly Listed On ABEbooks, See all by Typing - Harper's Weekly - in the Title and Typing - The Franklin Bookstore - in the Keyword then click on Search. ---- We Store and Ship each Harper's Weekly Issue in a Large Zip Lock Plastic Sleeve with a Board Insert for Stiffness. They are Shipped Flat and Never Folded or Rolled Up. All of this Attention to Maintain Quality Enhances the Condition of the Delivered Product To You. ---- ---- Historical Events Are Never More Exciting Than When You Read Them From The Day They First Occurred And Were Reported In Newspapers and Magazines ----. Bookseller Inventory # 008886

Arms Gazette magazine, Vol. 4, #5, January 1977-Vol. 5, #3, December 1977
Bookseller:
J. Millet & Co. History Merchants
(Santa Ana, CA, U.S.A.)Book Price:
US$ 64.95
Description: 10 issues (apparently all that were published that year: Feb. issue missing; October issue overprinted "November.") Quarto, all 58 pp., profusely illus; color pictorial covers. Great ads. Each issue features Personality Profile of a famed antique arms dealer or collector. Articles include: "Colt's Big D.A. '78," "Winchester Engraving," "Guns of the Forty-Niners," "Edged Weapons of the Frontier Army," "Colt's London Armory-the End," Gatling Guns, more. Long out-of-print. All fine copies (10). Bookseller Inventory # 071603bj
 
75th ANNIVERSARY MILITARY GOODS CATALOGUE (FOR SALE BY) FRANCIS BANNERMAN SONS, 501 BROADWAY N.Y.
Bannerman, Francis
Bookseller:
J. Millet & Co. History Merchants
(Santa Ana, CA, U.S.A.)Book Price:
US$ 75.00
Description: SCARCE! Large quarto, 287 pages, profusely illustrated with black-and-white line cuts and photographs, several pages with illustrations and descriptions of projectiles, index. "Established 1865." With the end of the Civil War, New York entrepreneur and opportunist Francis Bannerman bought up literally carloads of surplus militaria--guns, cannons, uniforms, projectiles, tents, drums, flags and accoutrements of all sorts--then barged it out to his private island arsenal in the Hudson River. From there it was transported over to his store in Manhattan, which for decades afterward was literally stuffed to the rafters with incredible treasures--a staggering collection encompassing not only five full floors but a vast basement. In addition to American and foreign militaria of every description was such exotic fare as complete Medieval suits of armor, crossbows, Mid-eastern camel saddles, ships' binnacles, horse gear, artillery pieces, "bows and arrows from savage tribes" and worlds' more stuff. Clever fellow he was, Bannerman even sold much of it back to the U.S. government! This original "January, 1940" Bannerman's catalog published on the eve of World War II showcases all of it, being complete and in fine condition for its age, and retaining its original pictorial soft covers. Text printed on quality glossy paper stock. A tight, clean and bright copy. Scarce thus. You'll enjoy this fine title! And thanks for visiting us on AbeBooks.com. Bookseller Inventory # 110705ae.cro
 
Report of the Board of Officers appointed by Special Orders No. 108, A.G.O., May 31, 1873 on Gatling Guns of Large Caliber for Flank-Defense
Bookseller:
James Cummins Bookseller, ABAA
(New York, NY, U.S.A.)
Book Price:
US$ 250.00
Description: (GATLING GUN) 4to. 50 pp of text, and 20 inserted leaves of charts, tables, and 2 photographic plates of guns. Original cloth. Upper right corner of final leaves touched by mild dampstaining, some fading to covers and spine, spine lettered by hand in black ink ÒGatlingÓ, bookplate. Rilings #957. Bookseller Inventory # 54968
 
Report of the Chief of Ordnance
Benet, S. V.Bookseller:
Thorn Books, ABAA
(Cortaro, AZ, U.S.A
Book Price:
US$ 300.00
Description: 8vo. 400pp. Original full leather boards, rebacked to style: spine tooled in blind with crossed muskets; brown lettering label, gilt. Profusely illustrated with full page plates, many of them folding, to illustrate the several appendices to the report. Reports on Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon, construction of muzzle-loading rifle; gunpowder (with 13 plates), Reports on a Gatling Gun (15 plates)and more. This is Volume 3, complete in itself, of the 4 volume Report of the Secretary of War to Congress. Rebacked, as noted above; board edges worn; the last several pages, including the index, stained; else in very good condition. Bookseller Inventory # 000074

[gary michie]

  HI:
I would like thank DD for the list of books he has found!!!!!!!! I have some of them read some others and my WIFE found me a few Harpers weekly and bazaars. In all of my findings sofar, every one is a rewriters, most of the time, the same facts just written a little differantly.
Again thank you for your eforts ,there is one listing I going to find---I hope.

And yes I can use anything pics. drawings, descriptions any thing.I have a copy of a faimly member telling of seeing the prototype (the first one) it is very interesting, lots of iron ,maybe some day I'll make it too.

[Will Bison]

Gary;

What a great web site, very nice job.

The Gatling Gun project sounds like quite the project. RJG was similar to John Browning in that "more parts make a better gun".

I recall shooting the '83 Gatling from the Harolds Club collection in Reno, NV. It put a LOT of 45-70 rounds down range in short order. What I remember most though was having to take the piece apart for cleaning. As I remember it was just about an all day job.

Regards, Bill

[gary michie]

  HI:
I did a little restoration work on a "83" in Yakima Wa. museum years ago it was the first one I got to brake down to Individual pieces it was a alllllllll day job. As I remember we started about 9 in the morning and did a test of loading, primer strick and carttrage ejection at noon finish clean up and oiling at 4 or so.                BUT WE HAD FUN..!!!!!!!!

[gary michie]

  HI:
I know you guys have seen this pic. be for but for those that have'nt and wondering what I'm talking about go to here     www.civilwarhome.com/images/gatlinggun.jpg     it's not the greatest picture but I think you will see that it is a little weak for the rough, for the field, behind a horse or limber with 57" wheels on.

[GGaskill]

One thing to keep in mind when comparing this carriage to those of artillery is the artillery barrels weighed in at 900 lbs plus (excepting the Mountain Howitzer at maybe 220 lbs.)  The lightest was the wrought iron rifle at about 830 lbs, but that Gatling is probably less than 300 lbs.

[gary michie]

 ;DHI:
Well the mountain howitzer and the 1862 gatling were about the same weight.ght gatling is 285lbs.the mh235? so I come back to the small pack m.h.carriage.
have you ever seen what I call the Naval carriage any where else? Is therea carriage encyclopedia somewhere?

[GGaskill]

Maybe a Dahlgren boat howitzer carriage?

[gary michie]

  HI:
 I put 3 drawings of the carriage on my web site, so if you scroll up a few replies, you will find in blue   "Gary's website",  go and see. these drawings are dimension correct, I got  them  off of the real thing about 10 years  when I was at the armory and they were cleaning the gatling.

[GGaskill]

I have a question about your drawings--it appears that you have the wheels perpendicular to the axle yet they are dished wheels.  Normally dished wheels are aligned such that the lower spokes are vertical so there is no bending moment in them while they are carrying the weight of the carriage/gun.

[Double D]

I know I have seen pictures of Field guns with their wheels angled in at the bottom and out a the top. And I thought the explanation George gave was pretty good.  But it appears it is not correct.  I could not find any reference to angling wheels.  I fact to the contrary, it appear that angling the wheels in so the bottom spoke was straight to bear the weight would  contradict the whole purpose of a dished wheel.

We learn something new here everyday

 From Gibbons:

The wheels are always made with a certain convexity called the dish. The obliquity of the
spokes gives elasticity to the wheel, and protects it from shocks which, were the spokes in
the same plane, would destroy it. The dish should increase as the ground to be passed over
becomes more broken.
The object of the dish is, for the purpose of making the body of the carriage wider; to
diminish the length of the axle -tree, thus increasing its strength; to t hrow the mud and water
outside the wheels; and to tend, from the effect produced by the decomposition of forces, to
keep the wheel close against the carriage, and prevent any tendency to run off the axle.

From The Handbook of artillery, 5th Edition:

9.  What is the DISH of a wheel?

The inclination outward of the spokes, when fastened in the nave.

10.  What is the advantage of this obliquity of the spokes?

It gives elasticity to the wheel, and protects it from the effect of shocks which would destroy it, if the spokes were in the same plane.

11.  What is the object of giving dish to a wheel?

 For the purpose of making the body of the car­riage wider; to diminish the length of the axle-tree, thus increasing its strength; to throw the mud and water outside the wheels; and to keep the wheel close against the carriage, and prevent any tendency to run off the axle.

Line drawings of cross sections wheels found in Switlik show the rims of dished wheels sitting square on the ground.

[GGaskill]

Although the pictures don't perfectly illustrate the issue, you can sort of see that the wheels angle outward at the top which makes the spokes perpendicular to the ground at the bottom.

[The Shootist]

The wheels have the dish shape for rigidity just like the crossed spokes of a bicycle wheel. A wheel constructed in a flat plane would have little axial strength, and cornering forces would quickly wear out the mortice and tenon construction causing the wheel to spontaniously dis-assemble.

The dish shape tri-angulates the structure making the tire tighten it's hold on the assembly when axial loads are encountered.

The canting of the axles, I believe is "gather" found here at the bottom of the page......http://www.lostcrafts.com/Blacksmith-36.html

The cant becomes toe-in when the trail is lifted onto towing position.

[GGaskill]

Looks like his "gather" is a bend in the axle such that the front edges of the wheels are closer to each other than the rear edges.  This would cause the wheels to press toward the center of the axle instead of the outside (same as "toe in" on a car.)  The cannon carriages that I have plans for do not show any "gather."  The "camber" is caused by conical bearing surfaces with the bottom line of the cone being horizontal, which causes the center line to droop to the outside, which causes the plane of the wheel to assume a position with the top angled away from the trail.


Mountain Howitzer Axle Bearing surface

[gary michie]

  HI:
 As I said I put a tape  to all I had a question about and seeing how the wheels set I noted it .With the wheels in this configuration, I decided the wheels would be used on a smooth, flat surface; like a ship deck? Any why, back my first question...What is it and who is the maker and would a pack mountain howitzer be correct for a army carriage?

PS I'm still look ing for a set of drawings for the wooden parts for a pack carriage.
gary

[GGaskill]

PS I'm still look ing for a set of drawings for the wooden parts for a pack carriage.

You haven't received drawings of the trail and axle for the Mountain Howitzer Pack Carriage via email?  Or you could order the No. 25 folio (Civil & Indian War 12 Pdr Mtn Howitzer & Pack Carriage) from AOP.

[gary michie]

 ;DHI:
AOP is a small problem I leave for work at 4;30 and thenoff to the second at3:30 here I can check my email( no I have not seceived any drawings) but no surffing the web.I'll be heading for home in 20 or so mins. and its a little late for phone calls. I dohave for or five publications of theres and they are veryyyyy nice.

[GGaskill]

... no I have not seceived any drawings ...

Email went out at 7:44 PM PDT.  You could always snail mail AOP as he doesn't take credit cards anyway.  Wheel drawings are under way but won't be ready for a little while.

[Double D]

The pictures are simply optical illusions.  The top of the left wheel appears bowed out and is exaggerated by the dish. . Look at the  right wheel  and you don't see that.  If you look at the wheels where  they contacts the ground the tire is square to the ground and the spokes anle inward they are not  straight up and down.

I went through everyone of my original gun picures and a looked at them, and everyone os the same way.

I don't have any original drawings with me to check. If you do have some original drawings check the angle of the axle trees and see if they are square through their centerline.

The lost crafts website talks about gather but doesn't say if that is for a dished wheel.  I don't beleive carriage wheels were dished only heavy freight wagons and artillery carriages were dished.  Either way the reason given for the gather is the same givien by Gibbons for a dished wheel, to force the hub inward on the axel tree. 

Gibbons discusses all the different aspects of the gun carriage and why things are the way they were.  Little details like the fact that Limber wheels had to be the same width as the carriage wheel.  The lighter limber and the passing of its wheel compressed soft soil so the heavier loaded carriage wheel had a compacted rut to travel in and was less likely to bog  down.

There is great detail in his chapter on carriages and the why of everything.  The description the dished wheel is an example of that. Yet no where do I see any detail what so ever about cast, camber, or gather mentioned.

I would really like to see an original  drawing and see if it shows this angled wheel.  I realy can't understand why  Gibbons would not mention this...unless we have all been fooled for a long time.

 

[GGaskill]

I realy can't understand why  Gibbons would not mention this ...

Perhaps because these were things he and everyone else of his time were so familiar with that they seemed the way of nature rather than something remarkable.  Kind of like the way the current generation feels about television and computers.

[Double D]

Mountain Howitzer Axle Bearing surface

George, is this from the original drawings? I so what is the angle, is it given on the drawing?

Perhaps because these were things he and everyone else of his time were so familiar with that they seemed the way of nature rather than something remarkable.  Kind of like the way the current generation feels about television and computers.

You haven't read Gibbons have you?  He leaves nothing to assumption.  He also makes it pretty clear the spokes were not perpendicular to the ground and why.

From Gibbons:

The obliquity of the spokes gives elasticity to the wheel, and protects it from shocks which, were the spokes in the same plane, would destroy it.

So the question is why does the original drawing you have show the angled axle?

I'll go through his Mountain Howitzer carriage description again and see if I can find an explantion.

[GGaskill]

This is an excerpt of a drawing in the No. 25 AOP folio for the pack carriage mountain howitzer, so presumably it is traceable to original material.  The angle is not specified in the drawing but it can be calculated from the dimensions given.

From my CAD drawing, the included angle is 6.5° so the angle of the center line is 3.25° below horizontal.