Israel and the M-16, what happened to the Galil?

[His lordship.]

While my information is dated, it was my understanding that the Galil rifle was used in real combat situations by the Israeli army, and the M-16 was used for internal situations, police, anti-riot, etc. as the Galil is a better rifle.

The photo footage of the recent army incursions into Lebanon show M-16 A4's.  I have not seen a single Galil.  Has Israel phased out the better rifle and gone with the M-16?  While Israel probably has a cost advantage with the M-16 as the US financially supplies them, I have heard that the M-16 with the .223 cartridge has been a disappointment in performance in the Iraq and Afghanistan theatre.

Anybody have a heads up on what is going on?

Thanks. 

[BUSTER51]

They found out the M16 was better .

[jbweld]

They found out the M16 was better .

Or, they get the M16's for free......

[S.S.]

I have actually been wondering that myself!
The Galil is a much more superior combat rifle!
This stuff in the Middle East is really starting to
concern me. I believe it is Israels intention to
drag the U.S. into this. I normally have no problem
with Israel, but this looks blatant to me. IMI is a super
modern weapons and munitions facility and should easily
have been able to keep up with the demands
of such a small combat incursion as they are involved in
but what do you hear in the media? American made Helicopters
firing AMERICAN MADE missiles, American Made 155 mm Howitzers
and now AMERICAN MADE small arms? And the Hezbolla are using
IRANIAN MADE this and IRANIAN MADE that and IRANIAN MADE Blah. Blah.
There is a Pattern developing here! The media is making it look like
Israel is a U.S. pawn and Hezbolla are Iranian Pawns and Lebanon
is the Chess board! Who is controlling this media? I wonder sometimes!
I was watching a news cast with a Syrian Gov't Official a week
or 2 ago when everyone was wondering how to get U.S. citizens
out of Lebanon. He specifically mentioned a bridge that they could use to
get out through Syria. The next morning Israel bombed that bridge!
Were they trying to keep U.S. citizens there? It peaked my interest
for sure! I was watching some of the footage of a group of soldiers from
Israel about to go into Lebanon, An officer was going around with a flashlight
showing the troops something about the operation of the M-16. These troops
did not look very familiar with the weapon at all !
(THAT IS WHEN I REALLY BECAME CURIOUS).
The More U.S. materials that can be shown, the more it really looks like a U.S.
Backed war.   ******* Conspiracy theory? Who knows, but we will see.

[His lordship.]

Interesting analogy, but I noticed that they were using an indigenous product, the Israeli designed and built Merkava tank, and their own helmets.  They used to use the American M-48 and the Centurian, the Centurian being a British made tank.  I did see some footage of where the old Centurian tanks had their turrets removed and the chasis was used as a transporter, not bad for a 1945 design. 

[jack19512]

I had read a while back when 7.62x39 got scarce and went up in price was because Iran was buying it all up.  Don't know if it is true or not.

[S.S.]

That, I believe was one of my posts, It was Venesuela in South America.
They ordered 100.000 AK 47's and an unspecified amount of ammunition
from a Soviet supplier. Iran pretty much is self sufficient as far as small arms goes.
The most refined version of a Dragunov I have ever seen came from there,
they make some decent quality weapons. I think Russia and China supplies most of their
larger weapons.

[jack19512]

That, I believe was one of my posts, It was Venesuela in South America.
 

The post I read said Iran.  If I am not mistaken I read this post on Glock Talk.  Like I said, I don't have any idea if it was true or not. 

[S.S.]

I heard on CNN last night that there was a lot of anger in Israel
because the reserve troops during all of this Lebanon ordeal had to use sub-standard and
outdated equipment. This would explain why they were carrying junky M-16's instead of the Galil
in a lot of the pic's we are seeing.

[Syncerus]

I've used an M16 (5 in the Army) and a civilian model Galil and I can tell you that there is no comparison in the quality of design of the two weapons. Note that I didn't say fit and finish, since comparing military issue to a commercial product is pointless. The M16 is a __bad__ design; the Galil and the other AKM variants (Valmet 76, etc.) are great.

Whenever I see these $2500 built up target AR-15 rifles at the range I just laugh. Talk about putting perfume on a pig.

Syncerus

[S.S.]

Perfume on a Pig?
I like that, Very appropriate.
Some of the forums here have folks that
really like those perfumed Pigs.... Get downright ornery
if you say bad things about them......
Ain't it FUN !!!
Other than Rosie O'Donnell the Democratic party and maybe the Baldwin
Family, The M-16 is one of the biggest pieces of crap
to come out of our country.....

[1marty]

The Galil is a great rifle and probably superior to the M16. The problem is that the Galil is quite a bit heavier and if you ever went hunting a seven pound rifle starts to feel like 70 pounds after a couple of hours of hiking

[S.S.]

I was watching something on the History channel yesterday about weapons
(it was on all day like in a series) Thay were talking about the Ka-vor
(may not be spelled right but that is the way it sounded) This will be the new
Weapon for Israel. The instructor was talking about how badly the M-16 Jammed
In dusty and sandy environments. His words were that he slept a lot better knowing the Ka-Vor was coming. He was upset that the New Soldiers were getting the Ka-Vor first Though..
What they say in other forums does not change my mind, The M-16 and its variants are poor combat weapons. The cartridge is not terrible, it is the platform that fires it.

[bluebayou]

If I recall correctly, Israel basically gets a third or half of ALL of the foreign aid money that the US gives away.  Plus, we give them loans and military hardware.  I wouldn't think that it is a conspiracy that you see a lot of US hardware on tv.  Military goods by law have to be made within the US right?  It isn't like we make VCRs and tvs for export anymore.  But we definately have the factories to make Apaches, Kiowas, TOW, etc.  I would agree that they probably got the M16 for free or at a steep discount. 

I hate to break it to you but Israel IS backed by the US.  There is no conspiracy theory to it.

This is kind of interesting:
http://www.nazarian.no/wepc.asp?lang=0&group_id=5&country_id=85

That and the fact that the IDF has its own website:
http://www1.idf.il/DOVER/site/homepage.asp?clr=1&sl=EN&id=-8888&force=1

Weird

[S.S.]

I was actually trying to make the point that the media was
making a real effort to point out that we were backing Israel.
And Iran Was backing Hezbolla.
Almost an obsessive effort. Something is strange there to me?
Looked like they were and are trying to make a conflict there!

[bluebayou]

Ah.........I got ya.  My take is that the media as whole just doesn't like George Bush and equates Zionism with Bush/Religiosity/Conservativism.  It is all part of the "Bush is a fascist" kind of thing going on right now. 

Breakout the soapbox---
If Lebanon cannot or will not police its own country for the terrorists (oh, excuse me, they have a whole freaking army with multiple launch rockets, armor, and such) and I was the neighbor being attacked then I would invade Lebanon too.  Hey, maybe the Israelis shouldn't be so aggressive, but in this case I think that they are justified. 

[JHT]

In fact, Isreal has recently, within the past two years or so, started to introduce their own new design in 223 caliber to its troops, starting with the new conscripts.  I am remiss in not remembering its monikor.
 
The most important reason that Isreal ceased the use of the Galil, you would know if you had ever lifted one, is the heavy weight of the weapon.  Isreal had supported it's troops with a Galil in .223 and in .308 caliber.   Additionally, the .308 was produced in a sniper version.  Again, all were heavy, but were designed thoughtfully for the conditions that they were to be used in, that being in "sand."  As a result of the troops complaining of weight of the Galil Isreal entered into a deal with the US for the M16.

Jay

[S.S.]

Trading Weight for poor reliability !
Looks like their soldiers get the short end of the stick too !
I was told recently by a soldier returning from Iraq that they
were ORDERED not to use any of the AK's they collected..
Were told that it's sound may draw friendly fire.  Real reason is that the military
Higher ups didn't want news camera's showing our Troops carrying
anything other than American weapons ! Returning soldiers from Afghanistan
apparently did not get that order. They like the AK's ! And some of the medium
Machineguns too. They Liked U.S. shoulder fired rockets better though, far more accurate.
they say the rockets from other countries pack a slightly bigger punch.

[rockbilly]

There is no question as to which is the better weapon between the little black gun and the Galil.  The little black gun has never been well received amoung those of us that used it in combat.  Many of us used captured AKs over the M-16 in Viet Nam, it ws a better long range gun, and more effective in the urban setting.  This has also been true in Iraq, many of the combat units there have gone back to the M-14 for that reason.  I would take the Galil over the little black gun anyday.  I had a Galil several years ago, it was a great shooter, I though I had paided too much for the gun when I purchased it for $700.00, then someone offered me $1500. for it, so it got a new home.  I sure wish I had never sold it.

I made a post several months ago, based on a conversation I had with a gun gun/ammo dealer concerning the availabity of 7.62x39 ammo.  Iran, yes Iran, pushed a deal with all of the major manufactures of the ammo to devert all available to Iran.  The leverage was payment in GOLD.  Many thought this was a build up of military goods in prepration of possible US action for their refusal to stop playing with nukes.  It looks like the pipeline is again open to some extent, at least we can purchase at a fairly reasonable price agsain.

[prairiedog555]

I have read that the US is going to replace .223 with 6.8.  Is that a done deal.  and if so, what will happen to all the m-16's?  and all the .223 ammo. 
It was interesting to see Mr. Kalishnakov talking about why the USSR changed from 7.62x39 to the 5.45 cal.  He said it was because the US had a .22, so USSR had to have a .22 cal. He said it was not as good.  And sure enough we are going to a 6.8 short rd.
I think we stick with Israel because of all the influence that Jewish decendents have in this country and probabally most of all that in that region they are the only ones we can trust.  Somewhat.
The Muslims are very religious, and their religion states that they do not have to deal fairly with infidels.  That is what I am, so I don't trust them. IMHO

[1marty]

I fired both-the Galil is a great rifle but is quite a bit heavier. Israel has developed a rifle similar rifle to the British pup which I understand may replace the m16.