Author Topic: RE-THINKING  (Read 1695 times)

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Offline williamlayton

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RE-THINKING
« on: August 11, 2006, 12:48:56 PM »
Now this is not a 180 or completely changing my mind. I am still not convinced that the war in iraq is doing any good. As a matter of fact, in some ways it seems even more futile.
There is only one way, however, that we can fight this terrorism we face. I think we need to resort to holding responsible the nations which harbor and finance these folks.
It is my thinking, simple as it may be, that if there is information available from these folks and they do not provide it we should retaliate in some way.
We have need of operating the same as they do.
Lots of faults with this thinking, but, right now i am frustrated.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline victorcharlie

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 03:04:37 PM »
I to am frustrated by the situation.  I would like to see the US quit pussy footing around and take the gloves off and get-R-done.....Lets clean house and start fresh.......
"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Tolerance in the face of tyranny is no virtue."
Barry Goldwater

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 03:34:27 PM »
I to am frustrated by the situation.  I would like to see the US quit pussy footing around and take the gloves off and get-R-done.....Lets clean house and start fresh.......


What would you suggest?  how would you clean house?  and whose house? 

We're stuck.  We can't pull out, and are not in a position to fix the problem... there is no good solution.

Ian
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Offline powderman

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #3 on: August 11, 2006, 04:19:46 PM »
I don't know the answer either. For instance, hezbolah, and hamas, there will be  no peace as long as they are allowed to live. They have no purpose on this earth other than to kill and maim innocents. They hate ALL non muslims. They are as mad dogs, and their mosques are their lairs, where they preach hatred and death. They are a terrible, deadly cancer that is sweeping the world. They spread hatred and death all over the world. Mass murders and bombings, beheadings, kidnappings, etc, indiscriminate slaughter of children. Thats what satans religion is all about. They serve the devil and don't even know it, because they've lived a lie since satan used mohamed to found islam. The men will never change, and by the time their children reach 9 or 10 years old they are so far indoctrinated in hatred and death that they could never become a productive member of any civilized society. The women will just breed and raise more just like them. If left alone, Israel could  wipe them out like their ancestors did. In the Bible, God ordered the Israelites to kill ALL of some peoples and nations, men, women, and children for reasons I have spoken of. These were people who had rejected God time and again, eventually God said, ENOUGH. I'm not advocating this, and modern day Israel won't do it because of world pressure. The day may come when the Israel of old rears it's head and says, ENOUGH. That is the only thing that will stop satan in his tracks. We have to fight these Godless scum wherever we find them, thats the only language they understand. They hide behind women and children to intentionally get them killed so they can whine about innocents being killed. We are not dealing with rational human beings, and human is debatable. We are going to have to treat them as what they really are. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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Offline Questor

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #4 on: August 11, 2006, 04:45:34 PM »
Not an uncommon perception. Here are a few facts...

1) Following 9/11 the Arab world was expecting U.S. retribution. It came in the form of showing the Arabs that if we are attacked, then we will find even a weakly plausible target and kill it. In this case, the target just happened to be the Hussein government. This kind of force makes the sheiks very uncomfortable because they now know that they could be next if they facilitate terrorist attacks against the U.S. Consequent to that, the Saudi leaders have become a lot more open to maintaining good relations with the U.S. Following the 9/11 attacks U.S. citizens became aware of the Wahabis and how they train terrorists. This awareness included the association of the Saudi facilitation of training and harboring the Wahabi terrorists. Regarding yesterday's terror plot arrests, the Pakistani government was quick to take credit for helping to foil the plot that was mostly staffed by Pakistanis.

2) The emboldening of the 9/11 hijackers occured in the context of a number of very well known bombings that were performed by Islamic terrorists, and many more bombings that were not so well known to the public. The U.S. policy of treating these as police matters did not work. Something else was tried. We are currently treating these as matters of war.

3) The Middle East is now geopolitically divided, approximately in half, with the two halves on either side of Iraq. Once the factional fighting stabilizes in Iraq, it is likely that a significant democratic state will emerge. Democracy is considered a threat by leaders in Arab countries because they take power away from monarchs and oligarchs, and give that power to people who are then free to concentrate on their own welfare.  Fortunately for the Iraqis, they are an oil-rich country and therefore have a good basis for a prosperous economy. 

4) The process of becoming intolerant of Islamic terrorism is to the point where Moslems are now beginning to feel pressure in the United States. This pressure comes in the form of economic pressure among a relatively highly segregated population of Moslems. These Moslems have their established livelihoods at risk.  While it was once unusual to see the words "Moslem" or "Islamic" associated with terrorism in the mainstream press, we now see those words in almost every article on terrorism. It was remarkable that, yesterday, president Bush used the phrase "Islamic fascists" in his terse public statement about the foiled bomb plot.  This sort of pressure in America is unlike prejudice in other countries, like England and France, where the Moslem population is marginalized and lives together in close community. The difference is that economic and social pressure is greater in America. One can only hope that this leads to a belated uprising of Moslems against the terror factions that define Islam today.

5) The American casualties of the Civil War, World War I, and World War II were all so high that no attempts were made to enumerate them. The number of dead was simply rounded to the nearest 100,000. The American casualties of Vietnam are all named on the Vietnam Veterans Memorial in Washington, D.C. The names of American casualties of the desert wars of the past fifteen years can be recited in about five minutes by an ordinary speaker. The costs of war are lower than ever, yet the number of occasions where fighting is necessary remains approximately constant.

6) Sentiment against Islamic terrorists has broadened to the point where the French have threatened use of nuclear arms against Iran if there should be a need to go to war.

7) Most of the country of Iraq is stable and productive. Fighting is localized. A civil war is possible. If that occurs, then one side will take part of the country, and the other side will take the other. Relative stability will follow. One of the sides will own the oil fields and become prosperous.

8) Public opinion is based mostly on the work of news agencies. One often heard argument against the war is "Where is the good news from Iraq? There is none!" That is an outrageous and almost entirely unchecked argument. Why should the news from Iraq be any different from any other news that's published? Those who print the news generally publish bad news. Consider the recent case of Floyd Landis, the man who won the Tour de France. The faint mainstream coverage of his win ended the morning after the race. Coverage of his alleged doping has been in the news more or less daily for weeks.

9) Many of the most capable organizers and leaders of terrorist cells are now dead. This has come principally from U.S. offensives.

10) Partisan politics and publicized casualty counts effect public opinion of the war more than strategy and risk. At 6:35am yesterday I first heard news of the foiled terrorist plot in London. Fourteen hours and ten minutes later I first heard radio commentary stating that the plot was probably a Bush administration publicity stunt.

11) The "jihad" concept is materializing in the form of more frequent and open gestures of terrorist warfare against the U.S. Iraq is a beginning, not an end. (Personally, I prefer to see most of the fighting being conducted abroad.)

12) The Guantanamo confinement of captured non-uniformed combatants for an indefinite period of years sends an interesting message of possible unpleasantness to young men contemplating anti-U.S. aggression.  The Abu Ghraib humiliations, orchestrated or not, do likewise.


Williamlayton: do you happen to know why you're frustrated? What frustrates you?  What seems futile about the war in Iraq?
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Offline nomosendero

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #5 on: August 11, 2006, 05:07:56 PM »
Questor
I think it depends to a large extent on who you are listening to , the Libs in the Media or some of the Soldiers who are coming back from Irac.
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Offline Questor

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2006, 06:04:47 PM »
nomosendero:

That's my point. If you listen to either of those sources and ignore what's really happening, then you're missing the story. How many Vietnam veterans, for example, really knew why they were fighting or what was really happening in Vietnam while they were there? Probably not a lot. Most seem to have learned years later.
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Offline williamlayton

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2006, 01:04:03 AM »
Questor
That is a very good question.
I do know why I am frustrated. I am very tired of swating flys.
I really do not KNOW who THEY are, and, THEY could be anyone-including American.
I feel as thought I am beginning to understand scripture a little clearer thought. They cry peace and there is none.
I am not very adept at reading prophecy, I guess I am too dense, but it seems to me, lately, that it is getting closer to a time when even a blind person, such as I, can read the signs.
These folks that are creating the problems ARE very few in numbers, if you take the lot as a whole.
I wish there was a way to identify them and those specifics who support them. i would care to eliminate these.
OH WELL!!!
Blessingsl
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline Haywire Haywood

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 01:26:23 AM »
I really do not KNOW who THEY are, and, THEY could be anyone-including American.

This is the main problem.  It's not a simple as taking the gloves off and dropping a bomb on the problem.  Without developing some kind of mind reading scanner than you can wave over a person and tell if they are a terrorist or not, there is no way to discern an honest moderate muslim shop owner from a pipe bomb expert.

Ian
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Offline powderman

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 03:22:11 AM »
All caught in England were British citizens, all islamic. Several were true Brits, recents converts to islam. The commmon denominator in all of these bombings, murders, is islam. Even the moderate muslim shop owner studies from the same evil book as the others, I trust none of them. Remember the hijackers on 911---11-01 lived here, had for years, just your average peaceful muslims. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

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What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
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Offline Savage .250

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2006, 04:14:41 AM »
  Seems like most state supported Terrorism comes from countries that have ............oil!   Great equalizer.   If they didn`t have oil we would have kicked their collective Ass-es  yesterday. 
 
  You can take the muslim out of the country but you can`t take centuries of
   culture out of the muslin. For them, religion rules!   What that (religion) seems to advocate is very scary.
 
 
   

   
" The best part of the hunt is not the harvest but in the experience."

Offline Questor

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2006, 04:18:26 AM »
williamlayton:

Look at the bright side. For example, during World War II, the people in this an in this country who were damaging things were called saboteurs and there were lots of them. Today, we have much the same problem, except that there are no giant armies to deal with at the same time.
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Offline Sourdough

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2006, 10:38:10 AM »
Personally, I think this country is doomed.  The reason is that half of the people in this country will not allow us to do what is neccessary to win this war.  The only way to fight someone that is ruthless is to become just as ruthless yourself.  There is too many pasafist in this country to ever do that.  I personally acounted for four members of Hessballia, left two of them lying on the runway at the Bairuit airport.  Yet, because of this members of my wife's family consider me a murderer, and don't want me around their families.  They even think my son is tainted, because I raised him and he shears my views.  They don't want us to visit or be around them.  That suites me just fine.  I consider them a bunch of sheep that is being let to slaughter.  My own mother tried to make me feel guilty over them, did not work.  I feel totally justified, I did what needed doing.  We need to stop critisizing our troops and let them do their job as they see fit.  If you aren't there and you don't know what is going on, stay out of it. 
Where is old Joe when we really need him?  Alaska Independence    Calling Illegal Immigrants "Undocumented Aliens" is like calling Drug Dealers "Unlicensed Pharmacists"
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A 'Veteran' -- whether active duty, discharged, retired, or reserve -- is someone who, at one point in his life, wrote a blank check made payable to 'The United States of America,' for an amount of 'up to, and including his life.' That is honor, and there are way too many people in this country today who no longer understand that fact.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2006, 03:20:55 PM »
 ???
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2006, 05:27:39 PM »
Must be some kind of joke, I figured you live close enough to the big cities to get this info., even
with only rabbit ears. If it is not a joke when I get back on shortly I will assist.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline nomosendero

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #15 on: August 13, 2006, 06:47:30 PM »
OK, you did not get back on in an hour or 2, I assume you are sleeping maybe. You are putting the troops in here along with Bush
Admin. & disapointed that the troops also have not been criticized. I have a problem with that & wonder what your problem is?

Even though the media has spent alot of time on the British/American stoppage of a terrorist plot(I am surprised it was not 80 middle aged Swedish Women instead of the Muslims you suck up to), & on the Jew/ Hess. boys,(the reason you picked this week to ask this question), there is always room to shoot at the Bush Admin.

(1) Bill O'Reilly continues to state in his extremely popular show that Irac is in a mess & ALL of the problems in Irac have to be laid at the feet of Pres. Bush.
(2) Hillary Clinton made the remark to Mr. Rumsfeld that his policy & hense the Bush policy is a failed policy. I know you wanted to separate the Lib Dem. politicians from the Media but you can't as they are Liberal Dems. themselve as shown in polls & by their own admission. And in this case as in all cases the Liberal Extremist statements are unchallanged by the major Media which is an endorsement from the media as anyone already knows.
(3) Mike Wallace on FNS interviewed Lamont & let Lamont tell his wacko thoughts as to how every facet of the Bush Admin. is wrong, in other words not just his message but a time to lay out everything, TOTALLY UNCHALLANGED & no doubt an attaboy
from Chris Wallace.
(4) Mike Wallace returns from the intervirew with the Iranian stooge & tells us how wonderful he is & how off base the present Admin. is for not understanding him. I heard some of his prelim. info spewing on the Nat airwaves. Don't know if he has given the total report on TV yet, & I won't listen any more to the clown anyway. 

You asked for 3, I went ahead and added another, I am sure I could get on some of the news websites & get much more, but why?
This was really to silly to adress & thought at first it was or should have been a joke. The Bush admin. has been blamed for everything, even all of the Hurricanes & problems even where we aren't involved?  I don't care for many of his policicies but why try to act like the media likes him when they hate his guts. Man, where have you been ?

And again, what is you beef with our boys?
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Offline Datil

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2006, 02:05:20 AM »

Sourdough I agree with you, Do it !   Shoot first ask question later if any thing
 is left. MacArthur got in trouble in Korea because he want to take Bussiness.
 Marv,

Offline nomosendero

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2006, 04:41:20 AM »
NS......These examples seem pretty light weight to me, no relentless pounding or analysis. O'Reilly, for example, is a shill for the adminstration---his m.o. is to deepen our involvement in the GWOT. Wallace is the only guy from the USA to talk to Ahmadinejad and you knock him. I should remind you that it was the vaunted NY Times that was used to break the story of Saddam's WMD with articles by Judith Miller...you should find those as this was a key point for invasion of Iraq.
.
Insinuating that I don't support our boys is just plain emotional pablum. Just because we have guys over there doesn't stop critical investigation of what the heck is going on. This appeal is used all to often to divert analysis by those unwilling or fearful of discussion about these events. In the end our boys will be better off. And for your information my brother is over there, retired military, with some security operation.
.
"True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else." ....Charles Darrow


................................................TM7



You asked for three examples, I failed to think about how heavy they should be for you. And more is easy enough. No, I don't know the level of anyone's patriotism is over the computer screen, just trying to figure out why you are putting our troops in this discussion, you did that, I did not.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline williamlayton

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 04:01:46 PM »
The Lord did say to not blindly go into the fields for weeds and destroy the crop.
A little more course is "when you are up to your ass in alligators one must remember he is there to drain the swamp."
There has to be some positive way to identify those that are capable of terrorism--what way that is, I do not know.
I the solution were to send ALL back that would be a telling of our own lack of being able to act intelligently.
I am search for something that will quiten my mind.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rockbilly

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 06:22:16 PM »
Iraq------Can you say, "Viet Nam  revisited?"

Great bunch of kids doing a good job at what they are trained to do. most thinking they are doing the right thing, but don't truly know why, soon to be sold out when the adminstration changes.

My peers and I thought we were in Viet Nam for the right reasons, we had the capability to win the war, but were controled by a bunch civilians that had no idea how to wage war.  (Same thing happened in Korea, Truman didn't have a clue what was going on or how to do it.) Eventually,  we will pull out of Iraq like we did in Korea and Nam with our tail between our legs.

The only way we can successfully win this war is to bomb the entire region back to the stone ages, find and eliminate every muslin in the world, and it will be over, but you know that will never happen.  If we leave one breathing muslin, the war will continue at some point.  A victory in Iraq must ensure the free world is safe from terrorist activities., if we fail to eliminate them all, then Americans are not safe in this,  or any other country.  It may appear that they are, but at some point we will be hit again.

Right now our only salvation is keeping the war in their back yard, once the fire is out there, it will flare up again someplace, I can only pray it is not in my backyard.

Offline nabob

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2006, 04:11:50 AM »
Muslims are not the enemy. Radical Islam is. Killing every Muslim means killing a lot of innocent people who are not a threat to us.

Ever hear of the Indus Civilizations? Harrapa, Mohenjo-Daro? These were located in the Indus Valley some 3000 years BC, about the time of Mesopotamian civilizations. The Indo-Aryan (Vedas) migrations superceded these civilizations and their culture. However, some of what the people who preceded the Vedas believed lived on, despite thousands of years of time, despite complete disappearence of the earlier culture into the emerging Indian civilization. This belief is called "Jainism". Today, the Jains are the lineal descendants in belief of a philosophy begun before the Great Pyramid was constructed.

You can kill all the people you want. The beliefs live on. "Kill all the Muslims" is not the answer to anything.

Offline doc_kreipke

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #21 on: August 15, 2006, 04:02:40 PM »
In fighting terrorism, one thing that might be helpful to kill off is America's need for petroleum products for an energy source. I disagree with Bush that Americans are addicted to oil. I think we're addicted to mobility. We have a love affair with our CARS, not their internal combustion engines.

If we could develop and make readily available an alternate energy source that would allow vehicles to go just as fast, pull as heavy a load, and go bouncing merrily along offroad as well as gasoline, Americans would go for it. At least I would.

Less petrobucks, less funds for terrorists.

Another consideration: Friedman points out in The World is Flat, Muslims would have to start developing an economy by their own resourcefulness. If they're distracted with earning a living, they'll be less apt to want to commit mayhem.
-K

Offline powderman

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #22 on: August 15, 2006, 04:40:32 PM »
DOC. Couldn't agree with you more. It's hard to feel sorry for a group of people who spend millions on weapons to kill innocents  with, while the people starve. POWDERMAN.  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Mr. Charles Glenn “Charlie” Nelson, age 73, of Payneville, KY passed away Thursday, October 14, 2021 at his residence. RIP Charlie, we'll will all miss you. GB

Only half the people leave an abortion clinic alive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAiOEV0v2RM
What part of ILLEGAL is so hard to understand???
I learned everything about islam I need to know on 9-11-01.
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDqmy1cSqgo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_u9kieqGppE&feature=related
http://www.illinois.gov/gov/contactthegovernor.cfm

Offline williamlayton

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #23 on: August 19, 2006, 02:50:54 AM »
Rockbilly-
 ;D This just had to be said, and I am glad I said it.
Pretty soon now, you will not have a backyard for it to happen in, when all is sold and you go on the road full-time.
I guess that kinda makes you a terriorist-no place to call permanent and hard to find.
That brings up a good point, and all of you have kinda hinted at this. We cannot determine who is going to do what, anytime. We can be fortunate, as in the latest episode, but like Lincoln said, and others, if someone wants to do something bad enough they/he/she (I am thinking of the Hen here) will find a way.
I would agree to public execution, though this could galvanize others, but certainly I think final execution should be quick.
Now you might question the public execution, howeever; this type thinking has no fear of anything except revenge.
Quieting the revenge part could be a clue--however I have no clue as to the method.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD

Offline rockbilly

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #24 on: August 19, 2006, 07:10:48 AM »
williamlayton.  The wife and I still have hopes of selling out and hitting the road for a few years, but the cost of fuel is kinda putting a crimp in our style right now.  Deisel has been averaging about $3.15 in my area, and I understand it is even higher other places.  My old Ford F-250 gets great mileage around town, and much better than expected on the highway, but when I attach our fifth wheel travel trailer it drops off to about 10 miles per gallon. I know a lot of people that had the same idea of traveling that have delayed for the same reason.

Course we all may have nothing to worry about if the prediction of a local cult leader is correct, one of the local TV stations said he is predicting on his web site that the world will end September 12, 2006.  Maybe we should all withdraw all the funds and meet in Vegas for one last party..........



Offline williamlayton

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Re: RE-THINKING
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2006, 09:19:06 PM »
The thing is, one of these days somebody will be right--and--this old world will cease.
I put no stock in prophecy of this type. I will think that the end will be VERY clear, when we get to that time.
I have been thinking on this terriorist thing. I can figger out what terriorist are all about easier than I see what to do about them.
If one looks at it logically--assuming I have any logical thought, and I do not tout myoneself to be a completely logical person--I digress--we deal with terriorism in this country daily, or, we have home grown terriorist. Serial killers, religous and political nuts who cannot think beyond their own present day desires.
We live and work around any number of folks who can impact our lives immediatily. Sad to say, but they do impact many thousands daily. They are terriorist and they live next door---well, next door to somebody--I been studying my neighbor real close lately  ;).
We do not recognize them as terriorist but they are. We are not afraid of them--but we should be more aware of them.
We have nothing to fear and a lot to be aware of---well, as aware and alert as we can be.
Blessings
TEXAS, by GOD