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Offline pak40

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Requesting input on a cannon build.
« on: August 11, 2006, 08:29:01 PM »
Hello all,

While looking for information and plans for cannon building I stumbled across your site.  From the reading I have had a chance to do you look like the sort of people who would have the information I am looking for on my build.  Recently, I have come into the possession of a 30mm cannon barrel, around which I intend to build a cannon.  From the research I have done it is probably a vietnam era aircraft machinegun barrel.  IT stands approximately 8ft has about a 1.5" bore, the walls are nearly 1" thick and it weigs approximately 60lbs (by my gues-timation). While I have some experience in gun building, something of this size is going to be a stretch of my abilities.  To give you an idea of my level of experience, I am currently working on building a Richards/Mason conversion type revolver out of an 1851 navy colt clone.  I am also in the process of building a legal semi-auto sten gun.  Some of the projects I have completed are a 1500m match rifle of my own caliber, a rebuild of a 73' springfield in 50-70, and numerous restores and conversions on old or obsolete military arms. (what can I say... I love things that go bang.)

My original concept was to create a cannon with a rotating breach (i.e. a revolver) with a self actuating cylinder or manual cylinder.  Once I became accustomed with the idea of the average cannon sized charge of powder and the danger several loaded tubes presented.  I decided that single shot would probably be a much better idea. (Feel free to weigh in on this.)

That said, my current plan is to cut the remaining portion of chamber off the barrel, plug it with a tight fitting 400 series stainless steel plug retained by cross rivets or bolts. I then intend to add trunions to the barrel utilizing rivets or bolts as retainers as well.  I will then build a carriage out of hardwood for the gun similar to a culvarin, or mountain cannon.  I intend for the source of ignition to be percussion or primer (perhaps shotgun primers, or squib 4/10 shells, and I intend for this weapon to be loaded from the muzzle (conventionally).  I don't have any engineering drawings of it yet to post, as I have not taken the time to make any yet.

So, what is the general consensus on my plan?  Can anyone see any flaws in what I am proposing to do?  Any suggestions? Comments?

I appreciate your time and the use of your forum.

Offline jeeper1

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #1 on: August 11, 2006, 08:50:14 PM »
This is just an opinion because I have no experience with muzzle loading a rifled cannon barrel, but I think it would be hard to load. I also would think it would be better built as a breech loader. Maybe a scaled down copy of the 1861 williams gun.
I may not be completely sane, but at least I don't think I have the power to influence the weather.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #2 on: August 11, 2006, 10:23:50 PM »
My original concept was to create a cannon with a rotating breach (i.e. a revolver) with a self actuating cylinder or manual cylinder.  Once I became accustomed with the idea of the average cannon sized charge of powder and the danger several loaded tubes presented.  I decided that single shot would probably be a much better idea. (Feel free to weigh in on this.)

That said, my current plan is to cut the remaining portion of chamber off the barrel, plug it with a tight fitting 400 series stainless steel plug retained by cross rivets or bolts. I then intend to add trunions to the barrel utilizing rivets or bolts as retainers as well.  I will then build a carriage out of hardwood for the gun similar to a culvarin, or mountain cannon.  I intend for the source of ignition to be percussion or primer (perhaps shotgun primers, or squib 4/10 shells, and I intend for this weapon to be loaded from the muzzle (conventionally).  I don't have any engineering drawings of it yet to post, as I have not taken the time to make any yet.


I think it was a good idea to abandon the rotating breech idea.  An 8' barrel is quite long; you won't gain any benefit from that length using black powder.  I would consider cutting it in thirds or at least half.  I think making a breech loader is a good idea, especially if you want to take advantage of the rifling without making complex expanding projectiles.  If you want to use a cartridge as the ignition device, .22 cal blanks are the preferred solution. 

I think I would stay away from rivets or bolts to attach anything to the barrel.  You can shrink fit a trunnion band to the barrel that will work fine.

Probably should reserve further comment until we see your design drawings.  What are your machining experiences?
GG
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #3 on: August 12, 2006, 12:52:37 AM »
Starting with a single shot is a great idea.  Things are much bigger with cannons (obviously) including cost of minor mistakes.
Do a simple one first then advance.

If the breach block is removeable, there are several methods of fastening it. 

If it is to be fixed, shrink fit is one of the best because it works better at keeping the corosive elements out of the junction.

Welding is good IF you can control (at the same level of confidence as when a nuclear reactor is welded together) the hardening and porosity of the welds and keep them away from directly where the powder chamber is.

Threading is ok, but realise that you immediately loose about half the strength by cutting threads.

The 30mm is a high pressure cartrige - the barrel should be plenty strong!

Sounds like a FUN project!

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Offline moose53

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2006, 05:04:14 AM »


Threading is ok, but realise that you immediately loose about half the strength by cutting threads.

Please explain about the loss of strength by cutting threads,as compared to what other system?

Offline Double D

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #5 on: August 12, 2006, 05:15:10 AM »
A Whitworth rifle is a natural for this barrel.

Do you have any serious machining skills, lathe and mill working?

You will need to make and attach a breech ring and tunnions.  Might need to turn a taper on the front half of the barrel.
 
The Breech block attachment might be a bit complicated, but can be done.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #6 on: August 12, 2006, 07:45:16 AM »


Threading is ok, but realise that you immediately loose about half the strength by cutting threads.

Please explain about the loss of strength by cutting threads,as compared to what other system?

Welding joins the metal with only minimal loss of strength, two pieces of metal are joined into one by melting.  Of course attention has to be paid to not introduce impurities and keeping the weldment from becoming 'porous' - from products of oxidation and other impurities.  Care must also be taken to pre-heat and cool the assembly slowly to prevent cracking.

Shrink-fit - expanding the larger by heating, sometimes cooling (shrinking) the inner piece.  Puts the outer part in tension with great gripping ability on the inner piece which is in compression.

Threading involves cutting both pieces - cutting into the metal, great care should be taken to round the bottoms of the threads (to not cause stress risers - making it prone to cracking).  You'll never get 100% engagement, more like 75% or so.  Less contact area and the cuts into the metal don't add any strength.

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Offline pak40

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #7 on: August 12, 2006, 10:45:08 AM »
Wow,

So much input in such a short amount of time!!!  I appreciate every comment that was made, and all the information provided.  I will try to expand on some of the questions brought up in the posts   First and foremost, I don't intend to use the whole barrel.  After some thought about logistics, , and as mentioned ballistics, I don't think something of this heaft would be much fun.  As for ballistics, I am more familiar with smokeless powder, but I do know that its too much barrel.  I intend to go with 1/2 the barrel.

On the subject of machining skills, I would have to say I am a beginner.  I am getting relatively good at turning on a lathe, but I have major lack of skill using a mill.  Primarily if I have to make anything too complex right now, I do it the old fashioned way (by hand).  I also have pretty good skill in hardening steel, assuming I can generate enough heat to do the job.  Right now I am restricted to small things, but in the near future I intend to build a larger "gingery furnace." (If you are not familiar with the late Mr. Gingery, I wholeheartedly suggest you guys look at what he has to offer online.  He home built lots of things including lathes and high temp furnaces.)  Back to the task at hand, My welding skills are nearly non-existent, I have been relearning the trade with a small light duty stick welder, but the going is slow, and I don't have access to a good one.

My knowledge of metalurgy is fairly good.  If someone tells me what they want to do with a given firarm design, I can determine if its a good or bad idea. I am also familiar with the properties of various metals. On the topic of ballistics I am par in this area as I haven't done much else with black powder.  I have a couple hawkens, and a colt 51' that I shoot from time to time.

My current tooling is a small beginner's smithy combo lathe/mill with a 20" center to center capacity and probably a 20" capacity mill bed.  Needless to say, if something needs to be done to the barrel, its going to have to be done on something else. (I have been considering making a large simple turning apparatus lately for times like these.  Fortunately, however, the barrel is tapered on the exterior already. I was pleased to see the suggestion of a shrink band for the trunion.  The idea hadn't even occurred to me.

On the topic of difficulty loading the weapon with rifling:  I had intended to use undersized balls, and patching in much the same way you'de use a muzzleloading rifle.  I suppose I could make minie balls for it that would expand.  Either way I go, I am going to have to make a mold anyway, so the shot can be as intricate or as simple as my imagination is up to developing.  When I got the barrel I had originally considered making a breech weapon, as this is the type that I am most familiar with. I am a little paranoid about the government throwing me in prison for building a destructive device.  While I know that if the weapon does not use a fixed cartridge it is considered a muzzleloader and not subject to NFA rules, I am concerned that a well intentioned ATF agent, or policeman may not make that distiction.  After what happened to Maadi Griffin, I am inclined to believe anything can happen when it comes to gun law.  After a little more careful research of the laws, I may go that route anway.

Finally, before I forget, I know that the idea I had for fasteners was not ideal. Due to my inability to weld with any confidence this was out, I hadn't thought of shrink fitting parts yet, and I really did not want to do any threading on the breech plug for reasons mentioned in the posts.  All this in mind, that leaves mechanical fasteners (rivets or bolts).  Though I think its reaching to try and use them to hold the gun together, and I probably won't, I have seen some pretty amazing things done with hardened bolts, and well placed rivets.  The AK that I mentioned in my first post in fact is screwed together, and I am going on about its 7000th round (next time I go to the range that is.).

I had better wrap this up,  I think I may have some time to start considering my blueprints, and getting some of this down on paper.

Thanks again to all who posted.

Offline Rickk

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #8 on: August 12, 2006, 01:23:25 PM »
If you have to, pay someone who is good at it to to weld the breech plug in place. You have a barrel that is actually worth a lotta bucks, so don't degrade it with a weak breech.

It is going to be a deep, multiple pass weld on lots of steel, gunna need a bigger machine, preheating probably too.

Stick welding is messy, especially with multiple passes. You will have flux up the ying-yang to constantley clean off, and it will be in a very deep, narrow channel... hard to get to. Shielded gas (MIG, TIG) is the way to go.

Rivets just don't sound too safe.

BTW, there may be some safety issues with pounding a tight fitting projectile down the bore. The safest thing to do is just drop a ball into the breech and get your hand outa the way while gravity does the work for you in due time. Your exposure to an accidental discharge while ramming for quite a while due to a persistant ember tucked in some little nook or cranny  is something to think about.

Offline Rickk

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2006, 01:39:46 PM »
pac40, look in the "ladle and mould review" thread...

I think GGaskill has the solution to your 30mm projectile.

Rick

Offline Double D

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2006, 06:56:21 PM »
Well after reading your post pak40, I think what we need to do is get you into the research phase first.  You appear to have the motivation to do this project, you just lack the requsite skills and knowldege

Before you make you first chip or  pop your first spark, READ. If you do not you are going end up with a piece scrap that is a danger to everyone that comes in contact with it.

You are at the stage in your life of being a cannoneer the we all have been in, and some still are.  We want you to build a connon that can be used to fire a salute over your grave, not put you in a grave.  If you don't pay attention it will.

Start here. THE MORE COMPLETE CANNONEER  By M.C. Switlik with selected excerpts from other artillery manuals
The book can be ordered from these two suppliers by clicking on these hotlinks:


Anyone who shoot's cannons should read this book!

Once you have read that then start thinking about what gun you want to build. Do some research on rifle cannons.  There are rifled muzzleloaders as well as breech loaders. Learn what obstacle there were to each type of gun.  How do you quickly load a large projectile  down the muzzle of a rifled cannon and still have it fit the rifling when it fired. No they didn't use a patch. I know how they did it, but I want you to find out on your own, so you will learn.


While you are doing that, build a simple gun on your lathe to hone your skills.  The simplest that a lot of us have done is the golf ball mortar.  You can find plans for several in the Safe loads and Cannon Plans post at the top of this board.  This will give you a fun and safe gun to wwhet your appetite.

Hopefully this will help you get started and realize you have a ways to go before you are ready to tackle that 30 mm barrel.  Make it a goal to learn so when you are realy ready you will be building a cannon and not a bomb!



Offline pak40

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2006, 08:32:40 PM »
Hello again all,
      I haven't given up or exploded myself yet.  Work has hampered my building time. I have been researching  as suggested in previous replies.  I am not quite ready to start though.  I got some excellent pics of a whitworth from one of the other members of the forum, and am kind of tempted to go with a breachloader, even with my apprehentions about lawmen taking it unkindly.  I am not so sure that I want to make a whitworth breachloader though.  I have been searching the internet for a couple weeks for alternatives and am having difficulty finding other breach mechanisms. If anyone knows of any sites that contain images of breachloading cannons (particularly closeups of the breach) please post them for me.  Any pointers in the right direction would be appreciated.
       Thus far I have cut the chamber end of my barrel off making the portion I am going to be using in the project approximately 66" long.  What I have been considering of late is shrinkfitting a breach to the gun in the same way as described for the trunnions in earlier replies.  Then securing it  with grade 8 cross shafts (in much the same way smith and wesson used to pin their revolver barrels.  Ideally, I would like to model my breach after a 63' sharps falling block, but before committing to anything I would like to see what some of the designs that the old timers used.
      One of the breach systems that have already seen and am not remotely considering is that of the Korean bronze cannon.  For those who are unfamiliar the "breach block" looks like a coal scuttle, that is merely laid in a slot cut in the rear end of the cannon barrel, and then ignited.  (no wonder they continued using melee weapons for so long in Asia.....).  At first glance this would seem to me to be more dangerous to the user than anyone down range.....
       I still have no drawings to share, as I still have nothing more than a rough idea of what I want, and the will to make it.  I have however, downloaded a free version of CAD, which should help once the ball gets rolling as it were.
       One last thing that comes to mind, that I hope someone here can answer for me.  Does anyone know approximately the average cannon breach pressure upon firing?  I'd be particularly interested in bore sizes of 1.5 to 3," but any information would be appreciated.  As I have stated before, I am pretty familiar with cartridge guns, and I know that something as large as the 577 nitro in original black powder loading creates a breach pressure of less that that of a 30/30 Winchester.  I know that blackpowder loadings are dissimilar to smokeless, but it would seem to me that firing a weapon of this scale would produce, still dangerous, but lower pressures than found in high velocity large bore magnum cartridge rifles (i.e. 585 nyati, 50 bmg, 458 lott, etc.)

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to help me out, for those who have already posted, and to the administrators for putting together an excellent site.

Offline freddo

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 11:30:54 PM »
I have always thought that the Armstrong Breech loading cannon was a possibility.I do not have drawings of it but I have had a look at the real thing and i think it would be relatively easy to make but you would need milling skills.
I take the view that if my skills and knowledge of metallurgy are "rudimentry' then I should look at breech loaders that date from a time when industry's skills and knowledge of metallurgy was rudimentry.Ie the blackpowder era.
 I would consider it very dangerous to get involved with modern propellants.
Douglas has given you very sound advice-research and research until you know a great deal about what you are about to embark on.

Offline moose53

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #13 on: August 26, 2006, 04:58:45 AM »

       One last thing that comes to mind, that I hope someone here can answer for me.  Does anyone know approximately the average cannon breach pressure upon firing?  I'd be particularly interested in bore sizes of 1.5 to 3," but any information would be appreciated.  As I have stated before, I am pretty familiar with cartridge guns, and I know that something as large as the 577 nitro in original black powder loading creates a breach pressure of less that that of a 30/30 Winchester.  I know that blackpowder loadings are dissimilar to smokeless, but it would seem to me that firing a weapon of this scale would produce, still dangerous, but lower pressures than found in high velocity large bore magnum cartridge rifles (i.e. 585 nyati, 50 bmg, 458 lott, etc.)

Thanks in advance to anyone taking the time to help me out, for those who have already posted, and to the administrators for putting together an excellent site.
        Look at cannon math on page 2 for pressure charts      http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,96265.0.html

Offline pak40

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2006, 06:31:45 PM »
Hi again,
    Thanks for the sage advice freddo. As you suggested in your post I have no intent of even starting to build until I know all of the pertainent details, and what the device I am intending will do safely.  No worries on that front.  Thats one of the reasons I am asking about alternative breach mechanisms.  Well, that and the fact that when I was reading the BATFE's laws regarding the subject of blackpower actions, I found that it states that the gun must be a replica of a prexisting action from the black powder era. I may have been unclear in my last post.  I have no intent of using modern propellants in a blackpowder weapon.  I only made reference to them in the post to make a comparison.  No worries on that front either. I would not classify my skill or knowledge as rudimentary.  Amateur maybe, but certainly above the level of "johnny in the garage tapping on a live flak 88 shell with a chisle and hammer."  All kidding aside, I do know how to build high pressure devices, and work with explosive propellants.  And while I will spend a great deal of time on the planning for the gun, I come here to get shortcuts to some of the preliminary answers as many here have already done a lot of the leg work in building their own.  ("why recreate the wheel").  Thanks also for the new research topic. As I am not a big civil war buff, I mave have seen so cannons, but have no idea what they were called, so its been hard for me to find information.   I will check out the Armstrong action and see what it has to offer.  Which also reminds me, since I have had time to practice my milling skill has grown 10 fold, I have already completely milled the ladder portion of a rear sight for my Mauser M71/84 project gun, and case hardened it.  At this point I think I could handle something a little more demanding.

Moose, thanks for the nudge in the right direction on pressure levels, I'll check it out.

Again posters, your help, as always has been helpful in my endevor.

Offline Thorn

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #15 on: August 27, 2006, 03:21:24 PM »
There are several types of breechloading cannon designs. The one im intrested in is the 75mm model 1897 which looks to have had a recoil mechanism. It looks like it may have been related to the model 1885 3.2" field cannon, which i believe had trunnions. Both used a De Bange interupted screw breech. I still have a lot of research to do myself, to confirm this.

There were also some sliding breech guns such as the hotchkiss, but there may or not be issues with "fixed" amunition. At the very least you would have to build your own cartridge cases.

Try looking under the "refrence" section for several options.

Offline pak40

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #16 on: August 31, 2006, 12:59:04 PM »
I just want to say a special thanks to you Thorn.
You supplied the answer to the question of what breach I am going to use.  After reading your post, I have decided to go with the hotchkiss 1.65 mountain rifle breach design.  I went online and searched for hotchkiss in general and found  the "mountian thunder" site where they have really good pics of the breach, and other shots of this cannon, and it appears to be exactly what I want to make.   You may want to check this site out too, as it has some good pix of an interrupted thread breach as you are interested in building.

Offline Thorn

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #17 on: August 31, 2006, 01:39:27 PM »
No problem, I will check out that site. Keep us updated of ALL your progress with LOTs and LOTs of pics.

Offline Double D

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #18 on: August 31, 2006, 05:38:57 PM »
You guys gotta share. Post your Mountain Thunder Link.  Here's the only thing I could find quick.
 
Fields of Thunder

Offline moose53

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #19 on: August 31, 2006, 06:00:01 PM »
I have been interested in the Hotchkiss 1.65 breach design too.There are a few that are shooting and as soon as I can get close to one I will get dimensions.I do have 2 photos from a cannon shoot I missed.                                                                                                                                                                                          

Offline Double D

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #20 on: August 31, 2006, 07:21:00 PM »
There is a gun in need of some serious maintenance...Moose you should save that gun!!

Offline Thorn

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #21 on: September 02, 2006, 01:25:33 PM »
I tried on both yahoo and google, i cant seem to come up with anything.

Moose, I cant believe someone would let that gun go like that.......what a shame,.....it NEEDS me.

Offline moose53

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #22 on: September 02, 2006, 05:23:44 PM »
I understand that the guy inherited the 1.65 Hotchkiss and is in the process of restoring it.Notice the wheels are new,so it`s in a good place.

Offline Will Bison

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #23 on: September 02, 2006, 07:26:50 PM »
Gettin' back to your original post, I have some comments on rifled guns. I have a small gun built on a Jap 47 m/m bbl. The twist rate is way, way too fast (1 in 8 feet) for a round ball. I suspect that a 30 m/m would offer the same challenge, too fast a twist rate.

The other concern is how do you load a patched round ball of that diameter? On my 47m/m I computed the patch thickness and the force required to start and seat the ball. I'd need Babe and his Blue Ox to get the ball down.

I do like the 1.65 Hotchkiss gun but it fired a low velocity round with a short projectile and had a twist rate to match. I'd sure like to see some drawings of the breech mechanism with dimensions. Of all the rifled breech loaders from the pre 1898 period, the little Hotchkiss really shines. I think a person could get the Hotchkiss to shoot round ball.

bill


Offline GGaskill

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #24 on: September 02, 2006, 07:52:21 PM »
Why would you want to shoot a round ball?  It's actually easier to make a cylindrical mould than a spherical one.
GG
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Offline Double D

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2006, 02:04:14 AM »
Why would you shoot a patched ball in something that big.


Offline moose53

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2006, 10:15:20 AM »
I found some illustrations of the 1880 Hotchkiss Breechloading Mountian Gun in the Artilleryman Vol.10,No.2 Spring 1989 page 30    

Offline Will Bison

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2006, 01:09:53 PM »
I'd like to see some better drawings of the Hotchkiss breech, that is to say some dimensional data that could be scaled.

Bill

Offline Victor3

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #28 on: September 11, 2006, 01:39:11 AM »
That Hotchkiss is a simple and elegant design. It gives me some ideers! I can see how it could be (Somewhat) easily scaled down and made using available Acme threaded components and a tap to thread the internal (Partial) hole. Hmmm...

A simplified version along the same lines could be made without the threaded components that lock the tapered breech block - Replace them with a large tapered spring-loaded pin parallel and offset to the bore that would lock the breech block in place after the block is tapped into place with a mallet. Opening would only require that the tapered pin be pulled back and the breech block whacked to the side.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline Thorn

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Re: Requesting input on a cannon build.
« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2006, 03:59:48 AM »
Your right, looking carefully at the first and second pics, it looks like the breech block is a sliding wedge. The breech block, the breech block guide, breech block retention screw groove and extractor groove guide apear to be at an angle. That would make it a bit more difficult to keep every thing strait.

It looks doable, my biggest consern would be how to mill the extractor slot.