fmj for big game

[Cheesehead]

The question has been put me since fmj bullets are effective and commonly used on African game, why not on North American game. A deer hunter told me an fmj bullet in 30 cal would be effective on deer if hit in the shoulders, just like African game. I had trouble answering except to say fmj bullets are used for dangerous African game. He said that further proves his point. Does he have a valid point?

Cheese

[R.W.Dale]

 The fact that FMJ ammunition is illegal in this state has always been reason enough for me. I suspect the primary reason for this, where does that FMJ bullet go after passing through both shoulders of a deer?

[Con]

To penetrate in a straight line reliably FMJs need to be a round-nosed or a blunt design, spitzer designs will try to roll over and can lose direction. On heavy game FMJs are used to ensure deep straight-line penetration ... so they're used on Elephant, Hippo, Cape buffalo etc... They ensure penetration to the vitals at the expense of a large wound cavity. Most NA game does not require extremes of penetration and I'd guess most tough soft-points will give complete penetration broadside on most game AND give a wide wound channel to promote loss of blood. So soft-points can be said to be "more effective" or "quicker killers" than FMJs, particularly in the smaller calibers. When you get to the large calibers ... well even a .45cal FMJ will put a .45 hole through an animal which just may be "more effective" than a .30cal hole when it crosses vital organs. A .30cal soft will however most likely expand to around .70cal, so its "even better".
Having said all that ... FMJ spitzer designs can be very effective on game. As the projectile attempts to roll whilst travelling through flesh it may break-up as jackets aren't designed for strength when moving sideways. If it fragments then it can give spectacular kills. I've seen that personally with .223s used on light-medium game upto around 50kg. A friend reported similiar performance from an 8mmRemMag using 196gr FMJs pulled from ex-mil 8x57 ammunition ... launched at 3000fps and used on pigs ... they were devastating as the projectiles fragmented creating massive wound channels.  If it however stays intact as it rolls, then it can also create a massive temporary wound channel which can also make it very effective ... that's the idea behind the Whisper series of cartridges. Problem is that with FMJ spitzers you cant guarantee their straight line penetration... which isnt a huge problem on small to medium game broadside ... but if you take a raking shot on something a bit larger you can come undone.
Cheers...
Con

[Dave in WV]

Solids are used in Africa and they are different as Con has posted. "Solid" bullets are used for penetration through bone, heavy hides, and lots of dense muscle. Deer have only bone to contend with and they are not thick as a much larger animal's. Non-expanding bullets are illegal in many states as they are consided inhumane. The Laws of Armed Conflct make FMJ bullets mandatory for war because expanding bullets are considered inhumane. ( odd ain't it?)

[jro45]

The only thing I can see wrong with FMJ here in the states is that it won't open up and make a bigger hole.
The game here in the states doesn't have as tuff skin like Africas game.

[Coyote Hunter]

My only experience with FMJs on live animals was on a couple of coyotes.  Neither experience was very good.  One took two 55g FMJ's from my .22-250 and still had to be dispatched with a .22LR to the head.

They are illegal in Colorado for big game and I wouldn't use them even if they were - almost any bullet design would be more effective.

[Sourdough]

They are illegial for hunting in most states, including Alaska. There must be a good reason.   Enough said.

[Grumulkin]

Just because they're illegal for hunting in some state, doesn't mean there is a "good reason."  There are a lot of gun laws without a good reason.

If you want to kill an animal, first of all the bullet must get to a vital organ.  A solid is more likely to get to a vital organ so, if the gun you are shooting is of marginal power for the animal you are hunting, a solid would be the best choice.

If you want to kill an animal fast, the projectile needs to do a lot of damage to a vital organ.  An expanding bullet, provided it gets to a vital organ, will do more damage and could be expected to kill faster at least where non central nervous system shots are concerned.

It absolutely cracks me up that solids are used on elephant, cape buffalo, etc. as projectiles of choice and are then thought by some to be ineffective on our relatively soft whitetail deer targets.

[R.W.Dale]

It absolutely cracks me up that solids are used on elephant, cape buffalo, etc. as projectiles of choice and are then thought by some to be ineffective on our relatively soft whitetail deer targets.

 There's a world of diffrence between shooting an elepahnt where a 500+grn RN solid has to penatrate a few feet of bone and muscle vs shootin a whitetail with a 147fmjbt where the bullet at most only has a few inches to do it's thing.

[victorcharlie]

Many years ago I helped dress out a deer that was hit 11 times with a .308 using military FMJ ammo.

With no expansion, the bullets passed straight through and the animal didn't go down until a vital organ was hit.

There are a couple of reasons the military uses FMJ.....

1st the Geneva convention requires it and second because a wounded man is better than a kill in that it requires a couple of other men to look after the wounded man.

On large african game, a FMJ is required in order to penetrate to the vital organs as an expanding bullet usually won't survive long enough to penetrate that deeply. 

Also, a FMJ is more prone to richochett and thus presents a little more potential danger for those down range, i.e other hunters or those who might be in the area as well as livestock and houses a couple of miles down range.

Really, a FMJ isn't a good choice for hunting unless your harvesting hides......then they would make sense to me......

[beemanbeme]

The solids that are used on elephant and such are, as a rule, of a larger calibre than the expended calibre of the bullets shot at deer and such. 
A fmj will kill an animal but often it takes quite a while for the animal to realize it.  I've never shot one at a deer or such as there are bullets ever so much better suited for the task but when coyote hides were worth taking, I shot some coyotes with them hoping to reduce damage.  It just didn't work.  A shot that would put the coyote down, blew enough bone shards thru the hide to defeat the purpose of using the fmj and a side to side rib shot or such meant a coyote going out of sight to be lost.

[S.S.]

I Have no doubt that a FMJ .30 cal round through the lungs of a WhiteTail
would kill it ---Question is When? If you enjoy tracking wounded game for hours and hours
and then probably still not finding them, By all means Use a FMJ.
In all seriousness, Why would anyone even consider doing this !
The object is to kill an animal as quickly and humanely as possible !
Poking holes through it with FMJ rounds is not the way to accomplish this.

[Grumulkin]

The most logical reason for not using solids/fmjs I've seen on this thread is the fear of complete penetration and wounding of another animal or richochets.

From Peter H. Capstick's book "Safari: the Last Adventure":

Page 97: "With solid ammo, the .375 is perfect for smaller antelope, killing them neatly without excess damage..."

Page 110: "BUt if it's [speaking of the solid] so acknowledged to be effective against the really big game, why would anybody apply the backhand, topspin logic to conclude that it would be less so against smaller game with less resistance? It makes no sense, theoretically or practically, as your first experiences with nonespanding ammo will demonstrate."

[Patriot_1776]

A solid is more likely to get to a vital organ so, if the gun you are shooting is of marginal power for the animal you are hunting, a solid would be the best choice.

If the gun you are shooting is of marginal power for the animal you are hunting, a prudent hunter wouldn't use that rifle on that particular animal, pure and simple.

If you want to kill an animal fast, the projectile needs to do a lot of damage to a vital organ.  An expanding bullet, provided it gets to a vital organ, will do more damage and could be expected to kill faster...

With most quality (eg. A-Frame, Barnes X and TSX, Trophy Bonded, etc.) expanding bullets, penetration on thinner skinned game is not merely a possibility, but rather a given now a days.  There is no logical reason, because of that, to use a FMJ or solid.

...at least where non central nervous system shots are concerned.

With a properly placed expanding bullet, the trauma and CNS overload as well as rapid blood loss and loss of blood pressure caused by the massive energy dump is what helps ensure a quick humane kill on the animal.  A FMJ/solid on thin skinned game would not dump its energy like an expanding bullet would. 

[Golsovia]

Full metal jacketed bullets are, in my experience, not real efficient nor reliable in terms of performance. Many times they simply pencil through which, on a simple broadside lung shot, means the animal will likely make many tracks before it expires. Then again, a FMJ can also tumble presenting the wide flat rear of the core to the forces of impact. This can lead to absolute destruction of the bullet and an end to penetration. While that may be useful at times, it can also surely be unwanted; it may either blow the backside completely off from a fur animal or it may destroy edible flesh and worse, possibly allow an animal to disappear beyond recovery. You cannot count on their performance to be similar at any given time. The difference between shooting a very heavily constructed animal with blunt FMJs or solids and shooting light game with the more typical spitzer FMJs common to smaller calibers is huge. They don't even deserve to be compared in their performance any more than they are comparible in their intended design.

[Grumulkin]

Let's see, a FMJ will just "pencil through."  That's kind of like an arrow and we all know an arrow won't kill anything.  I guess an animal hit with a "broadside lung shot" with bilateral pneumothoraces which is what the result will be, will go far; I doubt it.  Hunters of varmints with the 22 LR with solid bullets that pencil through rabbits know the rabbits always get away.  The penciling phenomenen is also why the users of muzzel loaders, handguns and rifles no longer use cast lead projectiles.

Yes, an FMJ can tumble and so can anyother bullet.  The wide flat rear of the core would then be exposed (hmmmmm, kind of like a soft nosed bullet).  Then there is the "absolute destruction" of the bullet and the "end to penetration."  Once again, I doubt it and fragmentation occurs with soft nosed bullets as well.

Then this tumbling self destructing FMJ bullet can "blow the backside completely off" or "destroy edible flesh."  This sounds like what you expect to get with a soft nosed or hollow point bullet.  This animal with the backside blown off with a lot of destroyed edible flesh disappears beyond recovery.  I guess the animal with its backside blown off wouldn't leave much of a blood trail or perhaps the hunter is color blind and can't follow it the 20 yards it gets before it collapses.

The facts are:

1.  Solid does not equal FMJ though as long as the core doesn't separate, an FMJ acts as a solid would.

2.  There is no bullet more dependable in it's performance than a solid.  It is supposed to go right through whatever animal it hits in a straight line and not come apart.  They are no more likely to tumble than an expanding bullet of similar dimensions at similar velocity.

3.  For those hunters who want to obtain a lot of tissue damage and a harvested animal, a tumbling solid would be a good thing though it doesn't happen that often.

4.  If you want a small hole in the hide and minimal damage to edible meat, use a solid.  If you want no damage to edible meat, shoot the animal in the brain.

Do any of you guys know or care about Capstick's hunting credentials?

[R.W.Dale]

Do any of you guys know or care about Capstick's hunting credentials?

 NOPE   And Yes squirells and rabbits get away all the time when shot with 22lr solid or Hp rounds.

Let's see, a FMJ will just "pencil through."  That's kind of like an arrow and we all know an arrow won't kill anything.

 People who bow hunt dont use field points on game the archery equivelant to a FMJ

http://home.snafu.de/l.moeller/Zielwirkung/military_bullet_wound_patterns.html
 Pictures of FMJ wound cavities and decriptions The only one that would appear to be remotely effictive on game would be 5.56x45

[Patriot_1776]

That's kind of like an arrow and we all know an arrow won't kill anything.

 
With all due respect, but have ever seen or heard of one of these?





Or these? 




Those suckers CAN and WILL kill any NA game animal, and I'm inclined to say much more efficiently than any FMJ. 

As for Mr. Capstick, being I haven't heard much of him or his escapades before, I am cautioned to consider what he says as opinion (his) rather than fact.  Does he hunt on his own time to share his knowledge, or is he sort of like what Chuck Adams is to the bowhunter world?


So, let's get on with it:     

[Coyote Hunter]

Just because they're illegal for hunting in some state, doesn't mean there is a "good reason."  There are a lot of gun laws without a good reason.

And without additional information it would be foolish to conclude there is NOT a good reason.

If you want to kill an animal, first of all the bullet must get to a vital organ.  A solid is more likely to get to a vital organ so, if the gun you are shooting is of marginal power for the animal you are hunting, a solid would be the best choice.

Not necessarily true.  I have put fmj’s through the vitals of coyotes and was very unhappy with the results.  I shot a buck antelope with my 7mm Mag using Barnes 160g XLC’s.  The first two shots went through the lungs, above the heart.  The angle was a slight quartering towards me but more broadside.  The first caused the buck to stop walking.  It may have gone down for a moment, I forget, but it was on its feet when I took the second shot. The buck lowered its head and started coughing up blood, then laid down but kept its head up as if sunning itself. I decided to work my way around a hill for a closer shot and 20 minutes later I was in position for another shot.  The buck spotted me, got up and started walking away.  A third shot hit the heart and ended its misery.

OK, XLC’s are not FMJ’s, nor are they solids.  There are, however, many stories of the ‘X’ type bullets failing to expand and acting as FMJs.  After examining the wound tracks, this is what I believe happened with at least the first two XLCs.  The third wound track showed more damage, which I took as indicating possible expansion.  The original ‘X’ type bullets, which includes the XLC, also have a reputation for losing their petals after expansion, leaving a marginally expanded caliber diameter bullet to do the work.  In other words, after losing their petals they act somewhat like a solid.

The point is that two shots to the vitals with the XLC’s at magnum velocities did not produce the result that a .30-30 with Power Point bullets would have.  As someone else stated, if the gun has marginal power, maybe its better not to shoot than to trust an FMJ to do the job.  Had the angle been bad and lots of penetration required, the XLC’s would probably have reached the vitals – the question is would they have performed any better?  I doubt it.  Based on that experience I did not use the XLC’s on elk that fall as originally planned but went back to my old standby of Grand Slams – which performed perfectly.  If you want reliable expansion AND damage AND penetration, stick with a bullet like the Partition, A-Frame, Trophy Bonded, North Fork or even the TSX ( which has a better reputation than the original ‘X’ family), or even the new MRX.  Save the FMJ’s for paper and steel.
 

If you want to kill an animal fast, the projectile needs to do a lot of damage to a vital organ.  An expanding bullet, provided it gets to a vital organ, will do more damage and could be expected to kill faster at least where non central nervous system shots are concerned.

Yup, expanding bullets do a great job – whether CNS hits or not.  I would not chose a bullet that HAD to hit the CNS to be effective, as the CNS represents a relatively small area.

It absolutely cracks me up that solids are used on elephant, cape buffalo, etc. as projectiles of choice and are then thought by some to be ineffective on our relatively soft whitetail deer targets.

When people compare FMJ’s to the solids used for Africa’s big game, I just have to laugh.  The solids used in Africa are large diameter, blunt-nose (FP or RN) projectiles, not spire pointed FMJ’s.  There is a HUGE difference in terminal performance.  A lot of .45-70 hunters use 400g-500g hardcast bullets with large meplats (big flat spots on their noses) at relatively slow speeds.  These bullets, while legal every place I know of (including places where FMJ’s are not), are incredibly effective even though expansion is minimal.  The diameter, bullet weight and nose configuration make the difference.

[Redhawk1]

Do any of you guys know or care about Capstick's hunting credentials?

Not really, I don't base everything I know on what I read.

[Sourdough]

When I was a kid we used bow and arrows to shoot squirrels and rabbits.  All we had was field tips.  One day one of the kids shot a doe with his bow using a field tip.  The arrow passed right through her, too far back to hit the lungs.  We followed her for several hours, then lost her in a cane brake.  Found her the next week dead, several hundred yards from where we had last seen her.  It was appearant she died a lingering death.  A full metal jacket would do the same thing, punch a hole through with little damage. 

As for solids being used on Elephants, Rhinos, and Hippos, yes that is the only way to get a bullet through all the thick skin, muscle, heavy bone, to a vital area like the brain.  And how many times does the Guide have to help finish off the animal.  That is something seldom mentioned.  Because with a brain shot on an Elephant it is a small target, with lots of room for error.  And the hunter is under an extreame amount of pressure.  And if he misses, the guide has to save the client.

An expanding bullet would not reach any vital areas on beast of that size.  Well maybe an expanding .50 BMG, but who carries one of those to the field?

Full metal jackets, I have no use for them.   

[35Rem]

If i'm not mistaken, FMJ bullets are designed to "Yaw" , or tumble, therefore comparing them to Solids is incorrect.  The FMJ bullets don't always behave correctly, (yaw), and sometimes pass through. 
They are definately not designed to expand rapidly and transfer their energy to the target, that's why they aren't approved for hunting large game.

[S.S.]

An arrow kills in a completely different way than a bullet.
If you put razor blades on a FMJ bullet you would of course get the same effect.
There is truely no way of making a comparison between Hydrostatic shock (Bullet)
and hemoraging (arrow). They simply cannot be compared..
And where on earth did you hear that Muzzle loader hunters no longer use cast projectiles ?
I have cast my own bullets for 28 years and use them regularly !!! Not in my inline, but all of my
side-hammer guns get cast bullets ! If you read that somewhere, I would not put a whole lot of stock in anything else they publish or print ! Every Whitetail I have ever killed was killed with a cast
soft lead projectile. Most were with a roundball too.... Man the Gun Rags are publishing some crap these days I guess.

[Grumulkin]

First of all, FMJs (with the possible exception of military bullets) are not made to yaw or tumble.  Rumor has it that .223 bullets meant for the M16 were meant to tumble.  Maybe that is true; I don't know.  I know that 70 grain match bullets in my .223 with a 1:12 twist keyhole every time.

My remarks regarding cast projectiles in muzzeloaders were meant as sarcasm since some don't seem to think a solid projectile is good for anything.  Similary, my remarks about arrows were meant as sarcasm.  As for one comment that arrows were more "efficient" than solid bullets, I will have to remember that if I ever need to shoot an elephant in the brain (more sarcasm).  I had no intention of dissing either arrows or cast bullets.

[Patriot_1776]

As for one comment that arrows were more "efficient" than solid bullets, I will have to remember that if I ever need to shoot an elephant in the brain (more sarcasm).

Grummy,I know you meant that in sarcasm, but I still want to put things in the right on this.  If you go back to my second post, which BTW remains unedited, you will see two discrepencies between what I said and how you (jokingly, I hope) comprehended it.  I was speaking about FMJ/solids regarding their use on thin skinned game, many of which are found in...North America.  That is why I stated that those broadheads will kill any NA, or North American, game with greater efficiency than any FMJ.  I was nowhere near comparing them with solids while hunting elephants in Africa.  For African/thick skinned game, I would use either solids or massive RN SPs, depending on the quarry.  I agree that solids work great, but only for the purpose for which they were intended.  Mind you, solids were never designed to be used on a mule deer.  Oh, one thing FMJs are excellent for: shooting paper tigers (pun intended) and targets. 

[Golsovia]

Since the original post names the 30 cal FMJ as a proposed projectile, I am assuming the question relates to spitzer shaped, common full metal jacketed bullets like are common to .308 as well as .224 military type bullets. I suppose one might also consider the FMJs in other calibers as offered by Sierra in .244. Hornady hasn't made the 220 grain round nosed full metal jacket .308 bullet in some years. I do not believe that the question was pertaining to FMJs like the .375 300 RN or .458 500 RN. Obviously (I believe) they would be different creatures than your typical military type spitzer FMJs. I couldn't care less what Capstick or anyone else uses whether successfully or not when I can see for myself with my own eyes what the bullets which I believe are in question have done in the field. Do they work? Sure- sometimes. My issue with them is, they are not reliable. I have seen what the .224s do on fox. Sometimes they kill without leaving a mark you can find prior to skinning. Other times they make a skinning job like no one who wants the hide would wish for. Does a bullet with .20 caliber of exposed lead- like a bullet which swaps ends has- open faster than an expressly design soft point? I don't know but I do know that I have seen more serious patch jobs with some FMJ shot fox than with any soft point killed fox I have worked on. I have never used these little pills on big game but I do know that plenty of caribou are shot with them. Often they kill well with minimal damage. Sometimes they run and run in spite of well ventilated lungs. Since the are open tundra animals it isn't a problem unless the initial hole isn't by itself lethal. (Since they are herd animals, the wounded one may disappear with the herd if the wound is only marginal.) Can the same happen with a soft point? Sure. It's a lot less likely however. I surely wouldn't want to follow a deer shot with a 30 caliber FMJ which went a bit aft of the shoulder in wooded country.

Nope, I'll take an expanding small caliber bullet any day for my hunting and leaving the larger caliber FMJs to the specialized tasks of breaking serious bones in the bodies of animals of serious size and construction.


(BTW, equating the shooting of a rabbit or squirrel with a RN 22 LR is akin to shooting a deer with a 500 grain .458 FMJ or even larger - I don't doubt that such a bullet would both drive straight through and bring a quick demise. Let's keep the comparisons real.)

[beemanbeme]

If my info is correct, that yaw and tumble crap came from the .223/m16.  The military, realizing they had chosen a really crappy piece of crap for a military round, tried to compensate by going to a heavier bullet which the original m16 did not have a correct twist to stabilize. 

[kombi1976]

If I remember correctly the true origin of the tumbling FMJ story has it's roots with the MkVII 303 British bullet which saw service throughout both world wars.
The core of bullet was lead........at the back.
But at the tip it was aluminium, although some used fibre or woodpulp for similar effect.
It was designed so that the bullet flew well but upon impact the heavy back end would cause it to tumble if it struck bone or a solid object rather than drilling straight through the unfortunate enemy soldier.
I've heard a story of a soldier who was hit in the hip by a 303 bullet but upon impact the bullet turned, exited again and shot up across his body cutting his top lip as it went!
As far as modern FMJs go, I think that while the current rules of war state expanding bullets are inhumane the FMJs have as much to do with penetration of buildings, vehicles and light armour as they do with wounding rather than killing the enemy.
Anyone who has looked at the tests using military ammo on plate steel would see that even a 5.56 NATO is seriously capable of penetration.
The whole concept of hunting soft-skin game with FMJs is ridiculous.
As others have stated dangerous game are dangerous not just because they're big & unpredictable but because they're VERY heavily built, in terms of muscle, bone and hide.
Besides, most PHs in Africa advocate a softpoint for the first shot and FMJs/solids for follow-ups.
That way a large wound channel can be achieved by the initial shot.
For Nth American game, particularly deer, the aim, or so you'd think is to make a decent wound channel without having to use a huge cal.
Most deer hunting is between 100 and 200yds with some shots being over that distance.
For accuracy over those distances smaller cal longer bullets are best and as such large wound channels are achieved by expansion on impact.
That is 3 to 4 times the distance much dangerous game hunting is hunted at and the cals they use are large using heavy bullets at medium velocity.
I think you'd have to be nuts to risk a deer on an FMJ when the hunting industry has spent more money developing expanding bullets for hunting game in North America than for any other continent.
I've heard of FMJs used to save skins when contractors hunted foxes but for any game FMJs are far less than ideal unless you are an astounding marksman.

[Grumulkin]

Why is it that logically one would use a soft nose on a dangerous animal for the first shot and then solids for subsequent shots?  Is it because a less effective bullet is needed for a wounded dangerous animal?

The hunting industry has been very successful in convincing hunters that only expensive, expanding premium bullets should be used on this and that.  I appreciate all the research and good bullets out there but recognize the hype for what it is.  In Africa where meat hunting is common and they shoot gobs of animals, solids are well accepted.  African animals are not noted as being less tough than North American animals.

Except for .22 rimfire calibers and some cast bullets in a 44 Magnum, I don't use solid bullets but not because they won't work.  I've never been able to find a solid bullets that shot as accurately in my guns as expanding bullets.

When I hunted with a buddy in South Africa, it was recommended we bring solids for certain types of hunting.  He read the "solid copper" thing on a box of Barnes bullets and thought they were solids (not illogical).  The wound he made in a Steenbok was quite impressive.

[kombi1976]

Why is it that logically one would use a soft nose on a dangerous animal for the first shot and then solids for subsequent shots?  Is it because a less effective bullet is needed for a wounded dangerous animal?

No, it's because for THAT sort of animal follow-up shots MUST have penetration.
If every soft point bullet performed ideally then it would penetrate sufficiently, expand and make a bloody mess in the inside of the animal thereby killing the animal stone dead on the spot.
Unfortunately with those species of game they don't know that they're dead so despite the fact that their heart has been obliterated and both lungs are lascerated beyond redemption they still have enough impetus to charge.
FMJs/solids provide sure penetration through bone, hide and muscle when an animal is charging and HAS to be put down.
And as I stated in my last post, straight penetration is the complete purpose of FMJs, as a military or hunting projectile.

The hunting industry has been very successful in convincing hunters that only expensive, expanding premium bullets should be used on this and that.  I appreciate all the research and good bullets out there but recognize the hype for what it is.

Ok, so there is hype.
But the reason they spent so much money in the first place is because good expanding bullets work really well.
This is especially the case in smaller cals.
Can you imagine shooting 200yds with a 7mm Rem Mag, hitting a trophy deer and expecting a clean kill if you were using an FMJ?
All of us would have to be snipers.
The expanding bullet/small calibre combination is ideal.
The bullet can fly along way due to its superior ballistic capabilities and when it hits it expands and provides as wide a wound channel as a really large calibre big bore.
I mean, for Pete's sake, why did people use lead bullets in the first place........because they're heavy AND THEY  EXPAND!!

Except for .22 rimfire calibers and some cast bullets in a 44 Magnum, I don't use solid bullets but not because they won't work.  I've never been able to find a solid bullets that shot as accurately in my guns as expanding bullets.

Why? Because expanding bullets work better and the shooting industry has done their darndest to make sure soft points are VERY accurate.
This argument is circular.