Author Topic: A tale of two 25-06's  (Read 2547 times)

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Offline Mac11700

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A tale of two 25-06's
« on: August 12, 2006, 09:33:24 PM »
A while back...I had a 25-06 barrel stolen while it was enroute to become a 270 from Wayne at Oregunsmithing...and so I sent my frame in and had a extractor replacement barrel installed...Then a nice thing happened...Quickdtoo worked out a deal on a like new 25-06..and was kind enough to sell me the barrel off of it...What a great guy he is... ;D..It's an older ejector type..with a rather nicely polished blue finish..not the rough type we are used to seeing...So I have 2 now...and 1 is destine to be a 270 before summers out...

All of my barrels go thru a rigorus cleaning and hand polishing before I fire a shot...It's up in the FAQ's if anyone is interested...but it entails a complete cleaning with foaming bore cleaner..hand lapping with Flitz..more cleaning with Barnes CR-10..more foaming bore cleaner..more brushing with a tynex brush..and more foaming bore cleaner..followed up with a Rem-oil scrubbing bath...It takes me about 3-5 hours per barrel to go thru all of this...and using a good feel for the lapping...both of these barrels recieved this treatment..prior to any shooting.

..I took the new 25-06 and a 280 Rem I had fitted at that time out and shot both of them...only had some Remington 120 grainers to shoot thru it for the 25-06.....didn't do too bad...averaged around a 1-1/2 group...velocity averaging around 2950-75 fps...clean up was a bear though...took me about 45 patches with foam bore cleaner and brushing between...and then 10 patches of Barnes CR-10 and  12 more foam trewatments and then finnaly a rem-oil  bath to get it clean...

I heard some good things about a product called Moly fusion...http://www.molyfusion.com/...and deceided to give Jonathan at Shooters Solution a call and get some to try out...I figured it might make cleaning a-lot easier...from all I have read about it...and according to a lot of folks...

After a few long phone calls where Jon explained his product to me...and told me what it will and won't do,I figured what the heck...so I asked  him to send me a small sample to test..and he was graicious enough to do so...

I got the sample..opened it up and followed the directions as stated..and went a couple steps further...I added an additional tratment to the bore for a total of 4...and I also treated the extractors moving parts..and the hinge pin...being extreamly carefull not to get any of this on the latch shelf on the barrel...or inside the chamber area.....The rifle on opening the action was tight before applying the treatment...and I had to push this down with my hand to open it fully...A helpfull hint...remove the barrel from the receiver..take off any scopes...and turn the barrel upside down...I used a 25-06 case bored out with a large enough drill bit to allow the cleaning rod to pass thru... and still remain tight inside the chamber...Slow is the optimum word here..you will need to take your time when applying the treatments...

As per the instructions...I cleaned the barrel very good again........I know...I'm kinda anal about having a clean bore to go shoot...one get's that way after 30 years working in a hospitals..and having a wife who's family owns a large cleaning buisness for 50 years...I didn't lap it as much the 3rd time..just 5 strokes in and back..then cleaned it out good...

Ok...I got the barrel prepped...and as per the instructions...warmed the barrel up before applying any of the solution... I placed the barrel in the sun..and got it up to 120 degrees...not quite enough for me..and since we have 140 degree hot water here at home.. so..into the shower it goes for 5 minutes..wiped it off..ran a couple dry clean patches down the bore...and started applying the mix...saturated the bore completely..and waited a couple days..I got a friend who has a small farm..with a nice gully on it..no type of range to shoot on...and no distance to be able to shoot...didn't even take the chronoghraph...just wanted to put some rounds down the bore as instructed.. I shot 15 rounds thru it..came home...expected  great things...well I was suprised...it cleaned up nicely..and in half the time...and the gun opens extreamly easy too boot...1 treatment down...3 more(for me) to go...well...all hell broke loose for me...between my daughter getting ran over by a 18 wheeler...crunched her car up...and did a number on her..and then the next week my 85 year old Mom getting  broadsided by a SUV going over 65 MPH...my home remodeling project..my wifes surgery..me having to work a ton of overtime...and then last months major storms..and my getting poison ivy,sumack,and oak...(yes all 3)...it's been a royal pain to get in any any free time...let alone shooting...but...during all of it...I did manage to lap the barrel a couple of times real good...and Finally today got to shoot it again at a real shooting range..Along with the nicely blued 25-06 Ultra stamped barrel Quick was kind enough to sell me...Oh...my Moms doing much better now...didn't think she was going to make it...and is up walking now...and my daughter is out of her braces (back& neck)...and is doing better as well...my ivy case is still on-going...been on steriods way to long and took myself off of them...I'm doing the old farmers cure...salt&white vinager...burns like all get out...but is healing it up pretty good...

On with the results...I deceided to do a side by side comparison of the 2...just to see how they would differ...

Ammo used was...40 Winchester PP 120 grainers..40 Remigton core locs 120 grainers..40 Federal Nitrex Grand Slams 120 grainer..and 40 Winchester Supreme 117 grain Silver Ballistic tips...No handloads at this time...but a total of 80 factory rounds for each this time..

I must tell you...Jonathan will advise you not to use any coated bullet with his product..1...you really won't need it...and 2...it may effect the way the Moly Fusioned barrel acts...I used it for a reason...The Lubalox coating that comes on the Winchester Supreme is a pain to clean out completely...and since most of you all know...I advise everyone not to mix them for this reason it makes it a real mess to clean...so...I wanted to see what would happen and if the claims about this product were accurate...Noramlly I try to clean the barrels when they are warm...I purposely waited till 8pm to let them cool...more about this later..on with the testing..

I took tempreature readings off both barrels when fireing..alowing each barrel to cool 15 minutes and then taking temp readings again..I was using a laser infared tempreature gun..calibrated to + - 1/2 degree...The Moly Fusion treated barrel averaged 7 degrees cooler overall than the untreated barrel on initial firing...and at the barrels mid-point( it's hottest reading area)..averaged 17 degrees cooler from firing...and here's a important fact...the Moly Fusioned barrel cooled faster than the un-treated one..It would average  5-10 degrees cooler in those 15 minutes...I shot 20 rounds of each ammo over a 3 hour period for each barrel..Accuracy with the Remingtons..improved slightly after measuring all my groups..but for the 4 x 5 shot groups...consistancy improved.....All groups freom both barrels were good...albeit..better with the untreated barrel..but..handloads weren't used today...and this is were the Moly Fusion barrel I believe will improve.. The best group was made from the Federal Nitrex 120 grain Grand Slams..both in the treated and untreated barrels..I got a 1 ragged hole group with the untreated barrel..and 1-1/4" group with the the treated one..A big surprise happened on the first shots thru either barrel...my first 2 shots were with the Winchester Power Points 120 grainers...the velocity with those first 2 shots were..3998 FPS...and 3856 fps...on both shots...even with the extractor barrel...the action almost wouldn't open...I had to force it...and the range master came to my booth to se what happened..he heard it from 8 booths down...I got it opened..and the extractor lifted the case out..no splits or ruptures..but definatly the primer was completely flattened...wow...a fluke...maybe it wasn't a 120 grainer...all the rest look the same...the rifle locks up tight...so I try it again...CA BOOM...look at the lcd read out...sitting on 3856 fps this time...action very hard to open..got it out..flatten/craterd primer..no rupture...crap...what the hecks going on...figure 3rd times a charm...and it was...all 38 that followed were normal...boy...talk about freeky...anyway..Accuracy with all loads averaged 1-1/2" velocities were slightly less with all rounds except the Winchester Supeme 117gr. Lubalox coated bullet...it averaged slightly more due to the extra coating of lubalox and was all over the paper...not a good thing...After shooting all 160 rounds...I headed home...which brings us to the best part...I wasn't looking forward to spending 10 hours cleaning my rifles..I know...I could probably get by with less...but..like I said...it's not how I do it...so..I figured lets get err done it's 8pm... Grabbed cleaning gear..outside I went...First up was the Moly Fusioned barrel...remember...I shot 20 rounds of the Lubalox coated Silver Ballistic tips on top of all that copper.............I use Gun Slick foaming bore cleaner..I inserted the tube...fill the bore with the foam till it came out the muzzle...and waited 15 minutes...ran a Tenax brush thru the bore..followed by 5...that's right...5 patches...all the Lubalox was gone..and I was getting blue..not black coming out...1 more shot of foam...waited 15 minutes...and get this...4 patches later..the bore is clean...I mean clean...This normally takes me 3-5 hours to get it done without treating the barrel...it's done in slightly less than 1 hour..start to finish...I am impressed...very impressed...The untreated barrel...well...34 patches of black /numerous brushings/ 4 foam treatments before a hint of blue...so far...5 brushings and 4 additional foam treatments...(it's been soaking for 4 hours now...) and still not clean...headed back out after finishing this post..

This Moly Fusion is some very slick stuff...and Lubalox isn't easy to clean completely out...it's not as bad as real moly...but durn close...and if you take Jonathan s advice you really don't need to use them anyway with a treated barrel...Clean up isn't looking so bad to me now..and from what he tells me...gets even easier with continued usage and I believe him...that alone makes it worth it to me...Jon tells me it reduces friction..and from what I have seen it does just that...on just about anything you get it on...which is why you don't want it in the chamber..or on the latch shelf..If you take your time..and be careful..you will do alright...Also...you need a clean..a really clean barrel  for the treatment to work the best..and it may take 3 or more coats to fully coat the bore..all of the paticulars are in the directions and on his site...If you want a barrel that cools quicker..and cleans easier..then you should take a look at this product...Sorry about such a long winded post...I've been dreading doing what I have to do...

Back to cleaning the other barrel...ugg... :(

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Datil

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2006, 02:04:10 AM »

 Thanks Mac for the report, Hope the Family is still improving,
 Marv.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2006, 05:33:28 AM »
Mac'

i'm sorry to learn of even more travails that you've suffered!   (i was off the web for a while with a work-related injury.....only logging in briefly and not doing any keyboarding for several weeks)

i hope you'll consider taking lemon balm/melissa originalis tea to help with your allergic condition.  you can read about it on some of the web sites.   it's great with allergic problems.   it also helps asthma (greatly)...but it is a sedative that will make you sleepy.

i hope you and yours will be doing better, Mac.   

hey: with some of the rebarrelling projects being so problematic for some of the guys, why not keep the two .25-06 barrels and just load them for two different bullets/uses?      although i'm a great .270 Win' fan i think you'd be better off just buying a new .270 barrel down the road.   but that's just my two cents.   if the barrel is done by a method to provides for  consistent bore/groove diameters then it's a great way to go.   otherwise i can see why bullets won't fly properly from a barrel with inconsistent diameters along its length.   (if you squeeze a bullet in the bore and then launch it from a bigger diameter at the muzzle it naturally is a problem ---- for those of you who May not have thought about it.)   

take care,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2006, 05:34:24 AM »
Thanks for the report Mac, guess I'm gonna have to moly-fusion some of my Handis, I've done a couple of my rimfire barrels, but I've never done any testing on them, they do clean extremely easy and the same has been reported at RFC by many shooters.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2006, 05:42:53 AM »
SS, this is the kind of accuracy to expect out of Wayne York's 6 groove cut rifling, and the .270 is only available in a 22" barrel, the 26" .270 that Mac wants is the cat's meow!! ;)

Tim





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Offline nomosendero

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2006, 08:10:18 AM »
Great report Mac, but I am afraid that you are increasing my workload!  ;D
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline Don Fischer

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2006, 10:55:56 AM »
This Wayne York you guy's are talking about, where is he? Does he do any barrel or only NEF's?
:wink: Even a blind squrrel find's an acorn sometime's![/quote]

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2006, 11:39:49 AM »
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline myarmor

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2006, 12:04:31 PM »
Great report Mac. I have been looking forward to it for a while now.... Glad things are finally slowing back down for you as well.
The differances in temp. is really impressive. And who doesn't want an easier way to clean up the mess afterwards?
 Did you think about sticking your barrel in the oven to heat it up when you where treating it?
Then again fitting a 26" barrel in the oven could be tricky ;D not like I know... ::)
I'm curious how that Moly treated barrel is going to calm down, especially with your handloads.
Thanks for sharing your info buddy.
-Aaron

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2006, 04:49:46 PM »
Tim.
That 405 is shooting very well and so is the 338-o6. Shot the 375 Win at 250yrds and got 1-3/8 grooups. But the heavy duplex is hard to aim at that distance a real big target is needed. I am going to see an eye doc on Monday to find out if he can sharpen my eyes with a laser.

Mac.
Seams like an awful pile of work trying to make a rifle shoot. I don't think that Molyfusion is any better than me using Moly plated bullets, they also do operate with lower tempeatures, due to reduced friction.

It is the carbon in a barrel mixed with copper fowling that cause the inaccuracy problem. Shooting coated and uncoated bullets alternatly is a sure fire fouling process.

I paid the price when chronyed unplated bullets in a moly based bore what a job it was to get the barrel clean and reestablish accuracy.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2006, 05:09:44 PM »
Thanks Fred, your help with the .405 was appreciated!!

Don't let the doc do anything that ya might be sorry for, a  lady friend had laser eye surgery and she has had trouble ever since, worse than before the surgery, but that was several years ago, hopefully the science has improved vastly.

Take care,

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #11 on: August 13, 2006, 06:41:55 PM »
Marv:

Thanks...they are...everyday both get a little better...

SS...I have thought about what you said...and I don't have a problem with Waynes work...the bores are about as concintric as you can have in a Handi...and that's about the tip of Lemon & Malissa's...used it a-lot last flu season..and nary a sniffle...The 26" 270 Handi..has always been my #1 want and desire...I just love the increase in velocity the longer barrels give...and am looking forward to having it converted...

Rod...I'm sorry... ;) ;D

Quick...again...Thanks for the 25-06 barrel...you made my little project much easier...

Arron...No way in H*** would I have tried that...my wife would nail my hide to the garage door if I put anything in her new oven :o   I would like to say I will be taking this barrel to the max...but...it is the one headed off to be rebored/rechamberd/reblued...It is one of the tightest fitting Handi's I own...and I want it as a 270 on the frame it was fitted for...you remember this one don't you?
...I'll keep the smooth finished 25-06 Ultra Tim sold me...and work with it...I decieded I will be treating this one after I work up some loads with it...nomosendaro sent me some wildcat bullets to wring out with it...and it will make a good test bed to do just that...and next time around...all the testing will be a before and after since I have a several sheets of data on it with factory loads...and inclusive will be many handloads as well...just for fun...

Don...Wayne does all types of rifles..at a reasonable rate too...Carefull though...if you get one...you might just have to see how far you can shoot it... ;D ;D ;D

Fred...How you doing?...It's been awhile friend...I wasn't really trying to make them shoot any better mate...just clean easier...and run cooler...This treatment works on both accounts...I specifically shot the Lubalox bullets on top of the copper last to foul it very badly...and it did...I had to...just to see how good it makes cleaning ;)...It cleans easily and quickly...I don't know if it would work for some of your rifles though...since you moly the bore..and shoot nothing else thru a few of them...On those I would not suggjest using the solution...but for those of yours your just shooting copper thru I would...It makes clean up a breeze...

My thoughts on this,and thru my subsequent conversations with Jonathan...I've come to the conclusion that the smaller bores like 223 and down would benifit from treatment a-lot. Espesially the 204 & 17 calibers...since they foul quicker than any others...This solution will eleminate the build up...Fouling just doesn't stick to it like bare metal walls...I might have to get one of those weee bores to try it and see for myself...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2006, 10:10:15 PM »
Mac.
The way I see Moly it wont stick to steel. It will deposit it selve in the microscopic interstices of the steel when you shoot Moly plated bullets. Each bullet carries it own Moly embedded in the interstices of the bullet jacket. There is no surface coating per se. The moly is an integral part of the jacket when applied by impact plating.

As the bullet travels through the bore it slides over the previous deposited moly. So we have Moly on Moly and each new bullet will refresh the base deposit. The removal of carbon is extreamy easy. I clean my barrels after each 30rounds or so or each use with very little effort.

With a colloidal Moly such as Molyfusion you soly depend on a single surface coat which gets blown away in short order and it allows for copper build up. How long is it good for. It is hard to tell how well it works, becauce it simply depends on the barrel interior finish or smoothness.

Moly is good stuff and reduces friction by the reduction multyplyer of 0.66 when moly plated bullets are used. I am not sure whether this factor can be used with Molyfusion since it is used one sided only.

Molyfusion does not provide loading adjustments for the additional lubricity, tough to do when it wears away as you shoot. I can see the SD being hard to control with varing amout of Molyfusion in the bore. I can see a lot of variables in its use.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2006, 05:29:16 AM »


Fred:

Some of the differences between your moly...and the Moly Fusion..is yours only sits on the surface in various thickness...Moly Fusion changes the metal and becomes permanant at a molecular level...No...it isn't a single coat of it...it takes a minimum of 3 applications to completely change the metal...it will take more if the metal isn't clean..or if pitted badly..Yes..it will wear out in time...but so too will the barrel and rifling.Any type of cleaning agent that will eat metal...will eat Moly Fusion..and one will have to do a touch up...but..much less than using the type of moly you use.Your correct in saying it doesn't allow loading adjustments to the amount you apply...with it..there really isn't any need to...once the metal is changed..it stays that way until it is worn out..or eat out by metal eating caustics...One variies the load data with a Moly Fusion bore as they would with any normal bore...and one doesn't have to worry about applying anything to their bullets...since you can shoot anytype thru it...and clean up is no longer a issue as I proved to myself...Also...the properties of Moly Fusion will lower the tempratures of a barrel quicker..and keep them lower...your type of Moly won't...This is easily proven..as I did just to see if the claims were true...I took tempreature readings from 5 different places on the barrel from start to finish...and it did reduce the overall temp of the barrel...and the Moly Fusion barrel cooled much quicker...

I'm not saying this stuff works miricles or you should replace what you have....but it does exactly as it states it does...and for the folks who never use any type of moly coatings..it will make clean up a-lot easier than they have had in the past.I shoot both types of bullets...coated and plain...and the amount of effort and time it took me to clean a barrel that had been fouled with Lubalox and copper..was minimum..9 patches...I sincerly doubt you could achieve the same with just using your type of moly...

Mac

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Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2006, 07:44:28 AM »
.. yours only sits on the surface in various thickness

Mac.
You are wrong about that. Properly impact plated bullets as per NECO process
with steel shot, there are no various thicknesses on the surface. There is simply no measurable thickness with any ordinary measuring devise. About 2 microns.
The steel shot will reduce the Moly particles to about that size during the 1-3/4h
process. Laboritory grade Moly powder has a gradation of 2-10 microns.

After the bullets are plated they are dumped on an old towel and rubbed clean nothing is loose  on the surface. Moly does not stick to metal nor does it stick to it selve it is only held there by impacting it into the interstices. .

Many people have trouble with Moly because of improper applications, or spray on stuff. Lubeloy is not Moly from what I know. Same for the Barnes coating.
There are too many misconceptions about Moly. No it is not a miracle compound it is however a high pressure and high temperature lubricant with extreame lubricity.

Of course Moly plated bullets have several other well known benefits. I wont get into that since I don't shoot enough bullets to confirm it.

It is only natural that a steel barrel with a lower temperature will cool faster than a hoter one. Moly reduces friction which in turn will reduce heat nothing new about that.

I have made on occasion  my own Molyfusion by mixing Kroil with Moly powder,  makes poor barrels  easier to clean. Cheap and simple spread on a patch, works real good. This works specially well after an agressive cleaning job during barrel break in.

With my 22x Hawkeye bore scope it is easy to see what is going on in a barrel and what works and what does not. If you think a barrel is clean try a Hawkeye bore scope you may have a big surprise.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2006, 08:04:22 AM »
Fred, Moly-Fusion is not the same product used to treat bullets, with proper application it makes changes to the surface metal, it's not a coating, but changes the metal itself. 

Tim

http://www.molyfusion.com/whatmfisnot.html

http://www.molyfusion.com/moltes.html

http://www.molyfusion.com/g1faltest.html
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #16 on: August 14, 2006, 08:24:33 AM »
Quote
Laboritory grade Moly powder has a gradation of 2-10 microns.

Here's a main difference between Moly Fusion...and using standard or labratory grade moly...I'm not a metalurgist...so I'll quote from the directions supplied with the kit...
Quote
The Moly Fusion paste and in this treatment has a dry film part and Nano Lube which greatly increases surface performance.Further Moly-Fusion it is 10-50 nanometers in size,it becomes part of the Moly-Fusion reation.It is a synthetic  that is 100 times smaller than a micron.

Seems to me this treatment would interfere less than any standard type moly that is applied...I honestly don't belive you made any of this Moly-Fuison...since it is a Trademarked new product..and something you can't just produce yourself...I do understand that using regular moly in the manner you are using it...is pressed onto the surface filling the pores and adding a film to the inside over time...This also means that it is building up layer after layer as well...but it still doesn't become part of the metal...Tthis difference makes Moly-Fusion a more stable approach.I also know folks have been using moly in 1 form or another for their  shooting needs for years...and this product I don't believe is trying to re-invent the wheel so to speak...but is a entirely new product...I know Lub-a-Lox isn't true moly...but is a coating that will mimic it...it too builds up over time and must be cleaned...It like regular moly...will trap water molecules under it from the condinsation process...causing pits to develope...this is a well know fact from what I've read on it...and this product doesn't do that...

I wish I had acess to your scope...I would wager that when I say my barrels are clean...for the most part they are ...but perhaps not as much as I think ...For all practicle purposes though...they are better than most...I spend enough time and effort ensuring they are...which is a-lot more than most folks would go thru here...

If you want to discuss the chemical properties of the product...give Jonathan a call...I'm quite sure he can explain it much better than I can...his number is 1-800-350-1537...

Take care

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2006, 10:28:41 AM »
Mac.
I have yet to see pitting or corrosion created by Moly plated bullets. I have been using Moly bullets for a very long time. Whoever came up with that tail did not have a clue how to make and use Moly bullets and proper cleaning of molyed barrels.

Yes you can read all sorts of negativity by people that have never used Moly plated bullets. Parsec was a bad one to spread a crock of Moly BS.

My home made Molyfusion paste is not what you can buy in a store and is not the same stuff you talk about, but it works just as good on rough barrels.

Tim
Thanks for the testimonials, looks like pretty good stuff. You mentioned to me before. When I get back down to the States I will order a kit and try it.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline techshooter

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2006, 01:28:14 PM »
Here am I.

Mac: Thanks for the detailed report and for liking the process as a useful addition to in your testing, ultimate bore-preparation process, as opposed to being an alternative to it.

I'm glad the Mother, wife, family situation has improved and the weather has cooperated at least a bit. I hope that Poison Ivy is finally beaten.

I look forward to continuing to work with you, and thanks for the follow-up too.

Mac, on the follow up I agree with your recommendations as to what you suggest it will not be beneficial for: as in barrels dedicated to Moly-Disulphide rounds for the rest of their lives. I doubt reinventing the process on those dedicated barrels is practical from an expectation now point-of-view.

It is additionally only for smooth super-clean metal surface interior with no burrs (physical defects), meaning factory barrels should be lapped and cleaned first. Because it will not polish any metal for you.

Quickdtoo: I look forward to you following Mac11700's testing and maybe you will want to at your option do some testing observations yourself too, if you have time for it.

I, as owner of Shooter Solutions, that is a sponsor of Graybeard Outdoors, and owner of the trademarked Moly-Fusion am interceding for Mac here.

My opinion is to set the record straight on Moly-Fusion and what it is claimed to be: not contain any solids, which preclude it being a colloidal suspension like you have made.

I do not knock anyone whatsoever for whatever path on travels, in all civility.

However, one addition is Mac has told me that in fact, no offense intended, but as a technical person, did not take my word for truth without testing everything in the light of testing, including to see if it was a suspension.

If I understand it correctly, do everything shooter-reasonable to remove it, I believe he tried to lap it all out with Flitz, at some point, and was unsuccessful in doing so. Removing it, that is, with reasonable force.

I believe one criteria for himself, anyway, was not just if it worked, but if the results was worth the investment not only in money, VS other products, and investment in time total as well: from Mac's regimen' point of view.

He did not post all of the empirical data after the first application as that would have been for an even longer post.

Mac didn't mention I am a site sponsor, since when I make a post, it will show..

Proof is in the results.

When Mac called, he promised to be a tough taskmaster but fair, and post the good the bad and the ugly, including if it is noteworthy to stand on its own, and in this case it is noteworthy at the front, again, without knocking any competing stuff. It is all good, Moly-Fusion is of course unique. Highly refined Moly-Disulphide is good, but Moly-Fusion is different.

It is defined as fusion from a chemistry(covalent) point-of-view, not as turning lead into gold on the more exotic side, nor "merely" "a bright idea".

Note: Mac says he approached me after becoming interested due to a friend and others, so thanks to those!

This is the same thing that happened to Stephen Camp for his handgun use, and posted “Conclusion & Observations: Does the Moly-Fusion work or is it sucker bait? Based upon what I have been able to see, it is good stuff and it does work” Mac mirrors the same thing, except for this forum-specific.

That's my weight in on posts preceding this one.

Jonathan Doege.

http://molyfusion.com/mfgundiykits.html, where did Mac review it from?
http://www.shootersolutions.com/molyfusion1.html  and http://shootersolutions.com/mfgundiykits.html, to show Shooter Solutions’ ownership.

I hope the post isn’t too long. For better or worse, I’m giving my gut reaction on a few important things before this post, and I stand behind Mac as to his integrity, and  the reason I mention Stephen Camp as on topic to this test is because his last-year on-line published independent review, in up front stated goal was to see if it was any good, he would be independent in testing, and all of the good, the bad, and the ugly would get posted, as is his way.
Private Opinion and/or question
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2006, 01:55:30 PM »
Welcome aboard, Jonathan!! Sorry I missed your phone calls, I have been back and forth tween my father's nursing home a lot lately, so I'm in and out frequently. I'd be glad to do some before-and-after comparisons of Moly-Fusion in the near future. I've treated 2 rimfire firearms with it and they have shown to be much easier to clean than before the treatments, haven't used it on any centerfire arms yet, tho.

Thanks,

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2006, 03:02:06 PM »
Techshooter Jonathan.
Thanks for the clarification of Moly-Fusion. I have carfull studied and absorbed what you had to say. I am a sceptical consumer and do not believe in all the  hype about a lot of products and how well they work. I have a shelve full of a lot of cleaning stuff that does not work as per claim to make me supicious of outlandish claims.

Nothing beats a smooth bore. Some of my benchrest barrels hardly need any cleaning to speak of after a relay of shooting. They are custom hand lapped and super smooth. Something you sugest also.

A lot of cheap rifles do not feature such smooth barrels. Also the lesser quality barrels will greatly improve in accuracy when cleaned with ease.

Since all my rifles have been used with Moly bullets, your product is not recommended by you. I appreciate that and it makes sense.

However I have one recent aquisition of a big bore 375Win Ruger#3 rifle that has only fired factory ammo. I will try your product on that rifle barrel. The barrel is over 30years old and has some pits from neglect, but this rifle is an absolute tack driver.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #22 on: August 14, 2006, 05:41:35 PM »
Jonathan, thanks for the info. & I am interested in learning more.
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #23 on: August 14, 2006, 05:47:29 PM »
Jonathan- thank you for putting forth the effort to come here and post. It is much appreciated.
Welcome.

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #24 on: August 14, 2006, 06:22:21 PM »
Mac,

Thank you for a very good report . Oh yes  welcome GBO Jonathan and thank you for your information. I sure learned alot with this post. Just goes to show your never to old to learn.

John   

 

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2006, 12:36:10 PM »
This might sound odd, but what do you think about doing this to a Muzzleloader barrel?
Not for the cooling aspect of it , but if nothing else for speeding up the clean up?
Thats one of the main reasons I don't get a Sidekick or Huntsman barrel, I just hate the mess that comes from a smoke pole.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2006, 01:17:41 PM »
I would say that it would be much easier to clean...that's for sure...but..remember...this solution is pretty slick...and I am unsure how it will do with plactic wads/sabots...if it will make conicals lossen up...then...I just don't know..much would be determined by how deep the rifling is...and how much engagement you get with the different sabots,mini's,conicals....patched round balls would be easy enough...and I'm sure you could mike the different sabots and use the one that fit the tightest for your bore..

Quote
BLACKPOWDER:
 
"We did a bit of testing with Moly [Fusion] this weekend. We were testing with muzzleloaders and found some neat results.
With round balls normally there is a limit to how hard you can push a ball out the barrel before the patch begins to shred and accuracy goes to pot.
We found we could increase the powder charge from 60 to 90 gr. of FFFg before the patch began to shred!
We did a sort of blind accuracy test.
We had two White Mountain 1 in 66" twist ball barrels one treated one not.
We shot groups at 100 yards off simple bench rest.
The guys shooting didn't know which barrel was treated and which wasn't.
We found accuracy improved from an average 7" group to 5" in the treated barrel.
We also ran tests with conical (bullet shaped) projectiles.
It seemed there was a relation between tightness of the bullet and accuracy in a treated barrel.
For example Mini balls tended to key-hole all over the place out of the treated barrel but Lee REAL (Rifling Engaged At Loading) bullets shot much better out of a treated barrel. Groups (100 yards) went from 4" untreated to a bit under 3" from the treated barrel.
My theory for the conical bullets is the treated barrel is so slick the loose projectiles sort of slip across the rifling and don't get enough spin. I hope the weather gets better for next weekend I've got some .223 (75 gr Hornaday), .308 and 30-06 (168 gr Sierra) rounds treated to do some tests at 600 yds."


Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline myarmor

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #27 on: August 20, 2006, 03:53:18 AM »
That is interesting. But I see your point. I look forward to hearing more about this. In all areas.

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2006, 06:34:53 AM »
That is interesting. But I see your point. I look forward to hearing more about this. In all areas.

Arron:

While I really like the benifits of the product...I don't plan on doing any testing with any BP firearms.I have no needs or desires to use them.Others may want to do some testing on their own..and this is a "good thing...but I simply don't use them. The Quote was from the Testimonial pages found within the links Quick provided..found here...http://web14.topchoice.com/~sales/testimonials_1.html...


I have had a real busy weekend trying to get this reloading room done...and all the other Honey Do jobs that have cropped up...Almost there...almost...A large closet/ cabnet to re-build and relaminate...some staining and touch-up painting...then I get to set up all my reloading gear on the new benches...The flooring will wait for a while..I haven't decieded on what I'm going to install..I should be getting some pictures up next week so ya'll can see what I've been doing ;)

Mac

You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline techshooter

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Re: A tale of two 25-06's
« Reply #29 on: August 22, 2006, 07:39:55 PM »
That testimonial goes way back, 9 years, but illustrates the point of what the Moly-Fusion has evolved to become.

On the dry film "lubricant" abrasive story, it was proven bofroe and in its absence in the Lilja precision .300 Win Mag (bore scope pictures) to be an absolute waste of time.

All it was doing was acting as a solvent to help break in the barrel, and nothing magical. No harm, due to the ruggedness of Moly-Fusion, and no good, except in the assisting of trying out the Moly-Fusion in the first place.

Thank you Fred M, Quickdtoo, Mac, Horseman112 and myarmor for the warm welcomes.

I look forward to hearing from any and all as the time presents itself.

In the meanwhile, anyone from GBO who want to order some, say the $50.00 Kit, I can beef up the package with the next bigger size of each of the two Moly-Fusion ingredients as a GBO thankyou. That is if anyone is ready for beefed-up package.

For reference, in 1997, the reviewed kit was $100.00 plus shipping, which included only the amount of of the then 1 oz size Moly-Fusion, and I am offering now, a easier-to-use paste version VS bottled liquid, for half as much: $50.00 plus shipping. And the 4 ounces of liquid is much better too, as it contains 1/2 ounce of Moly-Fusion, and the normal $50.00 kit not beefed up has almost 2 ounces of Moly-Fusion between the 1.5 oz jars and 2 bottles of 3 ounces of Moly-Fusion Treatment-oil.

If all you can afford is a smaller kit, then I suppose I can upsize a bunch of them to an in-between sized kit.

It is much improved in ease-to-use for much less, is what has happened to it over the years.


If there is no interest in it right now, that is OK too.

I figured I would make an offer, just in case. I just can't afford to be throwing it out free: It is already a very low price for gun use.

It was priced right then for gun use at 4X the price, with 1/8 oz. being $20.00, 1 oz. being $80.00. If it was known that it works, it would be worth that today. The short side is it does work, and its inexpensive. Once you are using it you can even get little 1/8 oz amounts of it (1 oz bottles of Treatment-oil with 1/8 oz. in it) for $5.98, 1/4 + $1.00 of what it was for most of the years between then and now.

Well, that is my sponsored advertisement offer of an offer, but on top of a recent test that gives an insanely good result to something that should sound better now.

Shooter Solutions does have some good finishing shooting solutions.

My opinion,
Jonathan Doege
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