Muzzleloading in the new era.

[captchee]

 guys . if you want to do something , join groups who are trying to  pick up the ball.  groups like the traditional muzzle loading association . Even go to game commission meetings and have your say , don’t just sit by or soon  IMO there will be no need for  even a muzzle loading season

 now that the NMLRA is singing coombia with the  modern manufactures   the TMA is about the only one supporting  traditional weapons and season . being a young group however they need our help to  give a voice .
 if not then you should set back  and  get used to it .
 let those like tony bridges who has filed  letters on intent with the  dept of interior  for discrimination against those states that still outlaw scope and put heavy  restrictions on modern  muzzle loading firearms . Stating discrimination  against  us older  folks who cant apparently see  well enough to shoot .
 Read all about it

http://www.hpmuzzleloading.com/update.html

 Now this is not to say that I don’t support the right of modern shooters  of muzzle loading firearms to shoot what they like .  Im 100% for that   as long as its in a general muzzle loading season , general any weapons season or the are confined to  the very basics of traditional muzzleloaders .
 That includes  lose powder , RB . Myself I would  accept conical but only pure lead and of bore diameter

 Just some  something to chew on

[lakota]

Lakota,

I was reading another story the other day about how nice it was to shoot a 20" barrelled T/C out to 150 yards.  But if longer ranges were necessary, a 26" barrel should be used to reach out that extra 100 yards.

I will not kiss some in-liners butt and agree that his long range, sabot shooting, pellet powdered, scope sighted, imitation of a 30-30, including a lever, is a muzzle loader. If they want to get along with traditional black powder hunters, they can keep their "rifles designed for the inept" out of traditional rifle seasons.  And if they do, then what I write is not for them.

These special hunts were not intended for this type of weapon.  They were intended for short range weapons and Buster Billie with his ramrod equiped bolt action sporter has pretty well closed any additional extra seasons for muzzle loaders.   I should sit back, join hands with my handicapped fellow hunters who can't get the hang of pouring powder, and sing happy hunting songs?

I have never shot a trophy animal, never expect to, and don't really care if I do.  But when I see most muzzleloading records going to long range, scope sighted, butt ugly rifles, it really bothers me.  Over brandy in the trophy rooms, these people can point out an animal, and claim they shot it with a muzzle loader, but in all reality the rifles are as fake as they are.

C F

ps........... I guess I feel somewhat strongly about this.Lakota,

I was reading another story the other day about how nice it was to shoot a 20" barrelled T/C out to 150 yards.  But if longer ranges were necessary, a 26" barrel should be used to reach out that extra 100 yards.

I will not kiss some in-liners butt and agree that his long range, sabot shooting, pellet powdered, scope sighted, imitation of a 30-30, including a lever, is a muzzle loader. If they want to get along with traditional black powder hunters, they can keep their "rifles designed for the inept" out of traditional rifle seasons.  And if they do, then what I write is not for them.

These special hunts were not intended for this type of weapon.  They were intended for short range weapons and Buster Billie with his ramrod equiped bolt action sporter has pretty well closed any additional extra seasons for muzzle loaders.   I should sit back, join hands with my handicapped fellow hunters who can't get the hang of pouring powder, and sing happy hunting songs?

I have never shot a trophy animal, never expect to, and don't really care if I do.  But when I see most muzzleloading records going to long range, scope sighted, butt ugly rifles, it really bothers me.  Over brandy in the trophy rooms, these people can point out an animal, and claim they shot it with a muzzle loader, but in all reality the rifles are as fake as they are.

C F

ps........... I guess I feel somewhat strongly about this.



This is why our sport is doomed. One faction of hunters warring with another instead of uniting against our common enemies-the likes od PeTa and what not.

We are playing right into there strategy-divide and conquer.
Today they want to ban bear hunting-no problem I only hunt deer and ducks.
Tommorow its dove hunting-dont affect me so I dont care.
Someday soon-lets ban in-line muzzleloaders and coumpound bows-no problem I use side locks and recurves.

Do you see where I am going with this? This is the same strategy the gun control zealots use.

No I do not shoot inlines, I think they are hideous firearms,yes I believe there should be a seperate season for truly primitive muzzleloaders, but a licensed hunter is a lincesed hunter and thats what we need more of right now.

[captchee]

 

This is why our sport is doomed. One faction of hunters warring with another instead of uniting against our common enemies-the likes od PeTa and what not.

We are playing right into there strategy-divide and conquer.
Today they want to ban bear hunting-no problem I only hunt deer and ducks.
Tommorow its dove hunting-dont affect me so I dont care.
Someday soon-lets ban in-line muzzleloaders and coumpound bows-no problem I use side locks and recurves.

Do you see where I am going with this? This is the same strategy the gun control zealots use.

No I do not shoot inlines, I think they are hideous firearms,yes I believe there should be a seperate season for truly primitive muzzleloaders, but a licensed hunter is a lincesed hunter and thats what we need more of right now.

 i have to disagree . what i dislike about  this line of though is it implies that if only the traditionalsit would lay down we could get along . I submit that if only the modern shooter would accept the laws  for what they are , who  establishe them abd why  we could get along
 if there is a reason that our sport "may be doomed" is because of the extension of the laws to accept  modern conveniences  not because  the two groups are  divided.
  Imo the general non hunting public  when they here muzzleloader seasons they  picture long rifle , flintlock and percussion guns  ,.  they see guns that many times will not go off , wet powder , round balls  and short ranges lots of smoke .

 Once that public  learns that  what they think of feel is the case is no longer true  or starts believing the manufactures advertising , muzzle loading seasons will be done .  If they learn that  the purpose for the season isn’t to experience  and use a difficult type of weapon  but to  get an extra season or fill one more tag 
 The out cry will be heard  . The game management issue will not  be able to stand the on slot . Those we  have put in charge of managing our herds will have no choice but to  open  the hunts for an any weapon  classification

 that’s not because of a division between traditional and modern    but stems from that fact that modern shooters  or should I say those who promote  modern  muzzle loading  cannot seem to restrain them selves from   being a techno  in everything  they touch .
  When  their latest doodad   is not legal they scream  like crazy tell the find some loop hole, be it a name change or   some useless claim of discrimination  to gain acceptance

 I read a post a person place on one of the sights some time back . I wish I could remember who said it and  their exact words but it went something like this .

The modern  manufactures have moved us from round ball to conical  in the name of accuracy.
From conical to jacketed bullet  and sabot all for range  speed and accuracy.
 No longer  is loose  black powder acceptable , we have equivalents , pellets , stings and such    all for ease of loading .
 Its claimed the average shooter above 40 can no longer see  adequately  and thus open sites are  in adequate  and discriminatory ..
 We have added center fire primers like the 209  all in the name of  hotter , faster more resistance  to weather .
 This is all claimed as progress  all in the name of efficiency and reliability  .some even go so far as to state  that their chosen projectile, scoped rifle is more humane   .

 I cant help but wonder how long it will take before the modern shooter realizes that  putting all the above in a  brass case   will also greatly increases the  reliability  accuracy and  range of their weapon.
 It will also provide a faster follow up shot  for those who decide they   can see the target through  the scope there for they can take the shot . Thus making  things even more humane as the animal  can thus be dispatch  much quicker with a secound shot

 its not about division its about  those who wish to push the limits and the letter of the law . Its about easier ,fast , further . Its about out doing the guy down the road .  Its about  getting the most in the freezer  .
 
No longer is it about hunting  for if it was  folks would realize that  you don have to fill a tag to  over and over to be a hunter
 its about a fundamental differences in  the reason we hunt and what each of us get from  it

[lakota]

We'll agree to disagree then

[Wolfhound]

This is why our sport is doomed. One faction of hunters warring with another instead of uniting against our common enemies-the likes od PeTa and what not.

We are playing right into there strategy-divide and conquer.
Today they want to ban bear hunting-no problem I only hunt deer and ducks.
Tommorow its dove hunting-dont affect me so I dont care.
Someday soon-lets ban in-line muzzleloaders and coumpound bows-no problem I use side locks and recurves.

Do you see where I am going with this? This is the same strategy the gun control zealots use.
No I do not shoot inlines, I think they are hideous firearms,yes I believe there should be a seperate season for truly primitive muzzleloaders, but a licensed hunter is a lincesed hunter and thats what we need more of right now.

It's an old strategy lakota. I totally agree with you on this. I can't remember the author but the quote at the bottom of this post relates very well what is happening both with the anti-gunners and the anti-hunters. Just look at what HSUS is doing. They are trying to get game preserves shut down. WHile I don't hunt in one I still support them if for no other reason than the antis are focusing on them. HSUS campaign. Note I don't support this campaign but a lot of hunters do. I'm a firm believer in Sun Tzu's philosophy. -Know your enemy and know yourself and you will never be defeated, know yourself and not know the enemy and for every victory you will suffer a defeat, know neither yourself nor the enemy and you will succumb in every battle.- Paraphrased but you get the point.

When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.

When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.

When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.

When they came for the Jews,
I did not speak out;
I was not a Jew.

When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.

[captchee]

We'll agree to disagree then

 
yes kola , we will simple have to i guess . at some time though we will al have to admit that there in lies the  real problem . Those fundamental differences  cut to the very hart of the problem .

 I think that  while the differences in application my be present one thing that is also very strong  is the  belief in the second amendment.
 And while most traditionalist may not wish the modern inline to be included  or  considered a muzzleloader  there is still a strong belief that  a person should be able to own and hunt  with these weapons  . 
 The only real question , just as  many times in life is, where does one belong   many times that’s not so red  an white
 
wolf hound. here is a new speach for you . its an old one  and from this country
 you may also find  wisdom in it

"Whole Indian nations have melted away like snowballs in the sun before the white man's advance. They leave scarcely a name of our people except those wrongly recorded by their destroyers. Where are the Delawares? They have been reduced to a mere shadow of their former greatness. We had hoped that the white men would not be willing to travel beyond the mountains. Now that hope is gone. They have passed the mountains, and have settled upon Tsalagi land. They wish to have that action sanctioned by treaty. When that is gained, the same encroaching spirit will lead them upon other land of the Tsalagi.

 New cessions will be asked. Finally the whole country, which the Tsalagi and their fathers have so long occupied, will be demanded, and the remnant of Ani-Yunwiya, THE REAL PEOPLE, once so great and formidable, will be compelled to seek refuge in some distant wilderness. There they will be permitted to stay only a short while, until they again behold the advancing banners of the same greedy host. Not being able to point out any further retreat for the miserable Tsalagi, the extinction of the whole race will be proclaimed. Should we not therefore run all risks, and incur all consequences, rather than submit to further loss of our country? Such treaties may be alright for men who are too old to hunt or fight. As for me, I have my young warriors about me. We will have our lands.

Tsi'yu-gunsini  "Dragging Canoe" Cherokee
1775

[Wolfhound]

wolf hound. here is a new speach for you . its an old one  and from this country
 you may also find  wisdom in it

Nope. It doesn't apply since it's not the traditionalist's season. No more than bow season is for traditional bow hunters. The native americans were pushed of of their lands or given small tracts of it to live on. No one is pushing traditionalists out of the seasons. It's the traditionalists pushing modern hunters out. Look at Colorado, their muzzleloading hunters actually got inlines banned for one year in the muzzleloading season. In most states they are loosening restrictions to get more hunters to kill more deer since most states have a deer problem. My own state is that way. They just allowed smokeless powder last year. This year they are allowing hunters who don't fill their firearm and muzzleloader tags to use them during the late firearm season.

Of course if I were in charge of game agencies I'd do away with equipment based seasons entirely. Make it deer season, set the maximum number of deer per hunter, and give the hunters all the time currently allowed under the different seasons to use whatever they want. All the equipment based seasons do is cause all this bickering over who's season it is. We hang together or we hang seperately.

[captchee]

 wolf hound you miss the whole point  i guess. you cant use a quote if you don’t understand the meaning of it.

 this speech was dealing  with very much the same problem that your Nazi speech/ opinion  was . A progression  of slow change that  your author did not see tell it was to late .  You may try reading  meaning and not literal translations .  Your quote  has even greater effect that way


 Comparison  to gunsini speech :

traditional muzzleloaders founded the season , played the political game  way before 1985 . They established  and did all the leg work  when there was no muzzle loading season . See the season  has not always been around .

 With the allowance of Knights design into  regulations many of those traditional groups  stepped and  back , welcomed  the new weapon “ we did here  in Idaho , I was part of it “
 But each year another treaty was ask for . First it was just the weapon that’s all that was wanted . Then it was conical of only lead design of course .  The next year it was  pellets . Suddenly  those of us that worked so hard to get the muzzleloader seasons in the first place  went ,,, wait a second  enough is enough .

Now we are fighting 209 primers , sabots  stingers that contain  bullet , sabot and pellets all in one  missing only a brass lipstick case  and primer from making them a bullet .
Scope issues  and now smokeless powder  weapons . In some states the fight is to  turn the seasons to a Black powder season  and thus allow all  weapons  as long as the cartridge is loaded with BP .

  Each time its one more step in the total progression  of elimination .  Elimination of , need I say a way of life , a belief  and understanding .
 In the speech gunsini asks : where are the Delaware?”
  I ask you ,  who is making production entry level  traditional weapons , where is CVA , whitmare , Remington   even TC has drop many of their most famous weapons .

 You state : traditionalist don’t own the land ,,, do you here yourself , do you not see the comparisons. Look around you  you think this is a new fight ?
  This has always been the way between those who hold on to some semblance of tradition and those who wish to leave it behind  . The difference is  you are now part of  that dieing heritage fighting to keep hold of  the hunting tradition , a country way of life . However  people don’t see  that  what they are doing is helping kill the very thing they want so much to  hold on to . Remember hunting is not a  right  for  most all of you . it’s a privilege and can be taken away at any time   

 So whats left ? Just like my people  the traditionalist now must  either accept the  so called modern way or be  confined on reservations IE states that have stood for what the season was originally established for. yet each day some one like toby bridges  wishes to even attack those states  .
 Soon  it will be gone but before then there will be a fight  about that toby is right .
 So you see this is the way of it . Its always been the way of it . Its how things work . Take just a little each time and before you know it , its all gone and people are left wondering what the He@# happened .

 For others  of our people who read this and my quote of  gunsini.
  I am not comparing the loss of our lands and way of life  or the many 10’s of thousands of  our  families that have died and still die even today  .
 When you think about it  maybe we have come full circle  and now the very principles and tactics  the are now using on their own people .

  IMO this speech is a very good comparison as to what’s happening today . Their way of life is slowly being eaten away  . I wonder if by the time they realize it , will it be to late ?
Something to think on .

[crow_feather]

When you go out in the woods and everyone is shooting their deer at 250 yards with scoped rifles loaded from the muzzle, your chances at a deer on public land will be slim to none with a traditional black powder rifle.  If you go to the state and ask for special hunts where you can use the old rifles that your great great great used, your answer will be - you already have them.

And if I care to holler to the world that an in-line rifle in a muzzle loader special hunt, or a muzzle loader record book is a lie and a cheat to the world, then I will.  I fought for the right, I'm a gonna use it. 

C F

[sharps4590]

Oh the advantages of owning my own property.  Here's how it works;  regular firearms season, smokeless rifles, crossbows, compuonds and in-lines are perfectly acceptable.  Archery season, longbows or recurves only.  Muzzleloading season, PRB, open sights and cap or flint ignition, no stainless or plastic.  It shall remain that way as long as I own this land.

Vic

[AndyHass]

My problem is, you act like it's some sort of huge accomplishment to be able to stuff a RB down on top of a load of Goex and make it go bang.  Get off your high horse.  I own traditional AND modern, and traditional is no harder.  Anybody raised shooting iron sights can do just fine with one.

If you think you're special because you figured out how to cover your pan in the rain, good luck on that GED you'll need it.

I'd do more traditional stuff, but the first time in 6 months I check in here to search for some info this is the crap I see.  Over on the modern board ZERO time is spent bashing other shooters (ie traditional).

[captchee]

My problem is, you act like it's some sort of huge accomplishment to be able to stuff a RB down on top of a load of Goex and make it go bang.  Get off your high horse.  I own traditional AND modern, and traditional is no harder.  Anybody raised shooting iron sights can do just fine with one.

If you think you're special because you figured out how to cover your pan in the rain, good luck on that GED you'll need it.

 
ok so then tell me if traditional shooting is no harder then modern shooting why the need for modern production?
Why the need for scopes and all the modern do dads that come with the modern inline ?
 If  all things are equal as you say .
 Really it can be both ways  or there simple wouldn’t be a need

 As to coming here and seeing posts like this ? I don’t see it as bashing but more of people raising legitimate concerns  and questions .

 Actually I can really see both sides , that doesn’t mean I  understand them or have to agree with them .
 The problem with modern forums  is that   normally  you never see  folks that shoot strictly traditional weapons there .
 While I post in the modern forum at HA  I think im the only  strictly traditional shooter that  did .
Then it was to provide information  not to cause a fight . I mean come on  that’s their forum , have some respect .

 Normally with also a couple exceptions that I know of   the only thing needed to stop a traditional shooter from entering a forum is the words modern muzzleloading  .
I believe this  why you don’t see folks disagreeing  or asking why the need . Yet in the traditional forums you get folks been out of shape because inherently  the are fundamental differences of opinion.
 They feel because they have a cap lock  or even a flintlock as one of their weapons  they understand . While its true that there are some that do , IMO most do not .

So this brings up the question , why did you make your post ?
 Why are you here ?
 If you were looking for traditional shooting information why even read this thread ?
 Why not just pass the topic up

 Im having a really hard time understanding here. I mean if as you say you are a traditional shooter why  not just be polite and disagree and state why you disagree  with the topic  without injecting venom into the conversation .
 Would it not be better to post  information documentation to support you opinion and thus let others decide ?

 See modern shooter want acceptance  to the point  its been forced . Regardless of how you cut it the traditional shooter is never going to accept  the modern inline firearm as one of their own . Its hard enough just  to squeeze a traditional inline through the door .

 In not against those who shoot and enjoy their modern rifle  up onto the point where they enter into traditional muzzleloading seasons.
 When it comes to supporting them in muzzleloading seasons , if those shooters wish to do the foot work and  petition the game commissions  for  units or seasons  more power to them.

 As I said before while I can see the other point of view  , I don’t understand it   nor do I agree with  it . Hence when I go before the commission “and I do often “ I support  muzzleloading in a traditional form   and when  there has to be an allowance for modern  then my voice is strongly  behind regulating the what where and when  of that allowance

[crow_feather]

Andy,
I was gonna tell ya that I only said bad things about the weapon and not the people - but that is wrong, I did say bad things about the people who say "Got my deer with a muzzloader" instead of "Got my deer with an in-line rifle that shoots flatter than a 30-30 and has a 5 x 20 scope that lets you count the hairs on a gnat's arse at 500 yards"  I should not condem these people that can't master the workings of powder, patch and ball and need the use of a regular rifle to hunt in a traditional season.

[AndyHass]

Why reply here?  Why did I read it?  Because the topic is ambiguous and I had no idea what it was about until I read it.

No, the difference between the forums is nothing so subtle.  People in the modern forum don't tear into you because they respect your right to choose your weapon and opinions.  You, clearly, do not respect anyone who does not agree with you.  All the proof I need is the original post.

We have a lot of things without the "need" for them.  That argument is not worth an extended response.

Thank you for bringing up the whole"mastering the workings of powder patch and ball" BS.  Again, you act like you are doing something special.  I've shot all types of MLs, and quite frankly traditional is much, much easier than fooling around with choosing a sabot, powder, and primer that shoot together with peak accuracy.  I shot open sights for more than a decade before I ever put my eye to a scope, and took dozens of deer that way.  Anyone can dump powder and ram a patch/ball as surely as they could a pellet and sabot....I did it before the internet when I taught myself to ML and it wasn't rocket science.

Graybead already established that you don't have to wear buckskin to belong in this forum, so don't act so shocked when someone who isn't in your little exclusitory club reads here and takes exception.

[captchee]

ok so lets see  muzzleloading in a new era is ambiguous ?
 As to the modern l forums , lets see  I have read  comments about leather underwear , folks wearing dead people cloths, round ball not humane , not accurate,  no allowances of scoped being discriminatory  .  Having outlawed enclosed ignitions …. Barrels are un safe , traditional shooters are elitists.
 Who here said anything about you haveing to dress any way  other then what you prefer ?
Again it’s a point of view .

 You , a modern shooter have brought this clothes  issue to a traditional forum ,, no one else .
 let me clearify , i my not post in modern forums . that however does not mean i dont read them


 I would also submit to you that if you have simple dumped powder and rammed a ball home. you  are either extremely lucky about coming up with a load or  you have just accepted  what you have as accurate  .
 Frankly there is so much  bad info coming from the modern industry concern traditional weapons it amazing

 How many traditional shooters do you see in the “Modern muzzleloading “ forum bad mouthing other shooters inside of threads ?
 .
So my question still stands  why are you here ? What do you have to contribute to this thread  other then anger  over  folks not accepting  one of your chosen weapons ?
 This is  a traditional forum  for discussion on traditional  topics as well as topic that concern the traditional community
  So  the way I see it  you can accept that  the modern weapons are not accepted by  some not concern yourself with thread such as this  and simple agree to disagree .

 Or you can  post in the modern forum where you will be more readily accepted

 Once again  when confined to PRB , lose powder and  open sites  I to feel that the modern weapons are inferior to traditional weapons .
 However when you add in all the modern gadgetry  they put themselves in  a modern firearms class with cartridge rifle

So basically im going to  do the same as another poster said above .
We are going to have to disagree

[AndyHass]

Traditional shooters don't have to go to the modern forum to badmouth modern shooters...it shouldn't be done at all.  Maybe you've read some things unnice about traditionalists on modern forums, but you've put that list together over a long, long time because frankly I haven't seen any of that.  Conversely, I found this on the second thread I clicked.  However, I will completely agree with you that it was inappropriate when it was said.  The only exception I make to that is the elitist comment as crowfeather fits that to a T...somehow picking patches and varying powder is different than swapping sabots and varying powder?  C'mon.  When you look down on anyone who does a task differently than yours, that's the definition of elitist.

That's the difference here.  I don't care what you shoot or how you choose to do it, that's your choice.  I don't go around bad-mouthing you to fluff myself up, on EITHER forum.  Some time ago Graybeard indicated that many of the things crowfeather complains about (not this time but in general) are actually appropriate for THIS forum, so lambasting people for it is not appropriate.

[captchee]

 Your right  andy , I been doing traditional muzzleloaders for 30+ years . I have been around along time . Ironically my very first muzzleloading rifle was an old  03 A3  that I  helped to convert.   Next was a 30 30 . This I sold and purchased a CVA mountain rifle from a kit . Now days the only cartridge weapons I shoot  are old Damascus SXS using paper hulls and BP loads . I grew up hunting and still  hunt a lot . I have never  felt a need or  found  myself handclapped in any way  using traditional muzzleloaders . With open sites and shooting PRB. Even  while hunting in general  any weapon seasons

 I have watched  many things change  to include the NMLRA  go from what its founders  intended to what it is today . All from a slow degradation   one step at a time . It sad to see that , its sad to see rules  bent for no other reason then money

 Myself I don’t care what you. I even would say I don’t care what you hunt with as there are , at least in Idaho , pretty  seasons for everyone .

 We however live in a time were folks  want things now . They don’t want to take the time to  learn  something new . They don’t want to take the time to  ask why something doesn’t work , they just want it to work .
I truly believe this is the allure of the modern muzzleloading weapon . They fall for all the manufactures hype  and expect things  right from the box .

 Then when they find that  what they just have purchased doesn’t work  or that its not aloud into a given season  they  cant seem to see  the differences . Often forgetting   the reasoning behind  those very requirements  that established  those seasons .
 They then fall behind folks like Toby bridges    and Wakeman .
 Why ?  Why when often times as you have said traditional weapon are superior  .
   To answer that . Its because of money , profits ,  another season ,  foreseen need to o shoot farther , faster then the person  sitting  just down from you . The want it now .

 For me that’s all really sad  and makes me feel really low . For Andy that in itself will be the reason   that the sport we all love and have in common “hunting”  will not last  but for a select few  who can and will pay the cost .
 I know of no traditionalist that will not stand behind someone  right to shoot or own what they want .
 Most but a select few   IMO never think about issues of clothing, that’s just some excuse propagated   as reasoning of modern folks  for  what I see as no other  comeback as to why they are not accepted  by traditional shooters .
 The issue is really  one of  view , purpose , maybe even principle, two completely different mind sets 

As I said before  it’s a why . Why must I accept  the modern shooter  , why is it that the modern shooter  accept the traditionalist  and confine themselves to  the areas they  the most commonality ?

 it’s a two sided coin  and the only reason I can find   for the  WHY ? Id one word,,,,,, CHOICE .
 So  when someone makes a choice they need to accept the consequences of that choice , for bad and for good . Not force  weak reasoning  on others who have also chosen  a different road . A road I might add that was set long before the onset of the modern inline  muzzleloading firearms  of today

[hpdrifter]

It's really all the Game Departments' fault.  Most of them, few exceptions, stated "Muzzleloading Season".  That opened the door for all the b*stardized firearms nowadays.  Of course, they missed all the lawyer speak instead of saying "Primitive weapons season".  A modern inline magnum that they bragg about being waterproof, rustproof, and accurate upto 300 yards with glass attached AIN'T primitive.

Sure the ole cap and ball ain't just real hard to get "minute of deer", but it does take a certain amount of dedication.  OOOh, dedication; now there's a primitive thought.

I really don't care what you shoot, but don't call 3 Pyrodex pellets, a plastic sabot, a Powerbelt bullet fired by an inline encapsulated primer primitive!!!!

[AndyHass]

Modern inlines are certainly not primitive.  This brings the whole debate of what the seasons are/were intended for, and I see no reason to go there as there is no answer to that argument.

Captchee I think you would find we have more in common than different.  I do not shoot inlines because they are "easier", and I have never loaded a pellet down my bore.  I constantly fiddle with my components and loads to extract more accuracy much as you likely do though the components differ.  Just as you can cut up a pillowcase for patches and grab a box or RBs and get huntable accuracy with traditional equipment, you can pick up a box of saboted bullets and get decent accuracy with modern.  In neither case will the results be optimal or satisfy you or me. 

This is where I have the problem with stereotyping all those who use inlines as lazy slobs.....that would be as inaccurate as stereotyping anyone using a non-inline as a throwback mtn man-type.  It was such stereotyping that drew my attention.

Sure, instant gratification is an issue today, but it would be ignorant to apply that to people by ML type.  My scoped 300yd inline (which took a whole summer to accurize to my satisfaction and put 500+ rds downrange before season) was purchased because the overpopulated deer (which the DNR maintains in such numbers to satisfy those too lazy to actually HUNT for deer) ravage my family's crops and I need to be able to reduce their number as much as possible by any means.  However, I just bought an iron-sighter to use when I actually get to hunt for the fun of it and still-hunt (my favorite method when time permits).

If you want to identify the lazy slobs, look for those whose guns come out of the closet the week/night before the season or who are on the same lb of powder they bought 2 years ago.  Will they more often shoot modern?  Yes, because as you say, that's what the marketers are currently pushing.  But that reflects nothing on those of us who shoot year-round and always strive to optimize and master our equipment, whatever century it may be from.

[captchee]

 ok andy , i can accept that but here  is  something to think on . If the game is truly over populated “ I know it is in many places .  Really then there is no need for a muzzleloader season  as a general weapons center fire season  would take the most out of the herd ..
 See here is the point muzzleloading  has not the numbers to be a  very large game management tool .
 So now  we extend the  traditional / primitive seasons to accept modern weapons  yet still the numbers are not there . And the herds over populate .
 Game management when applied to muzzleloading  or archery is a weak  application  unless  it is applied to populated areas and designated as short range only . This again pulls the modern muzzleloading weapons in a different class unless confined to strict guidelines.

 I submit that if management is   the goal then soon the muzzleloading season will  go away and the general weapons season will be extended to  take advantage of the greatest numbers of hunters .

 i have to then ask  how many modern muzzleloading shooters will continue with   their chosen weapon . IMO i would think a safe bet would be  a vast majority would e deligated to closet duty .

 sure there are those who would keep shooting but  when it came to hunting there would be simply no need .

 myself ?  filling tags isnt what i enjoy about hunting  and even if the muzzleloading season were to go away , you would still find me packing my flintlock .
 i believ it would be a safe bet that a vast number of other traditionalist would be doing the same thing .

 that just my thoughts on it , i have no numbers to back that up its just a view , nothing less and nothing more

[hpdrifter]

captchee, I have to put an amen on to that; about hunting in general season with muzzleloaders.

In Texas there is hardly any reason to hunt with a muzzleloader other than enjoyment.  There are a very few muzzleloader and shotgun areas and muzzleloading suppllies mainly just sit on shelves here, or so it seems.  Me thinks, the only reason for any muzzleloading season/areas here are just for safety.

[AndyHass]

As I indicated, the DNR is not interested in decreasing the herd to reasonable levels so to them, the ML season is not a primary management tool.  To ME, it is a prime time to accomplish the task.  The deer are too scared to hunt well on the land I hunt during the 2-week shotgun season (but I hunt primarily ML during regular season too).  During ML season there are fewer hunters out and I have better success.  I believe I took 2 deer with a shotgun last year and 6 with MLers (4 inline, 2 traditional).  If I'm on stand I'll often carry both MLs into the field, and use the inline only if the deer are too far out in the open field and can't be stalked.  I'll always prefer iron sights at heart.

Like I said, this particular argument is not worth getting into.  In my area, if we were to say traditional-only, they might as well cancel the season as there wouldn't be two dozen hunters in the whole county.  There is a limited amount of time for hunting in the fall, and I would say there are better ways to use it.  I use my ML during all firearm seasons; I see no reason why all frontstuffers can't get along.  We don't have a traditional archery season.

This is in my area.  Yours might be totally different, hence this is a useless argument.

Edited to add:  General season will not take out most of the herd.  For example, the land across from mine is choked with deer and they use it as a staging area to come onto our land and eat after dark.  Yet no one has hunted it in 2 years and they won't give permission.  Most of the deer I get are in the last 10min of light, as they come across from there.  The "deer campers" have bought up most of the good deer habitat, then shoot 1-2 deer (bucks) per year off 80 acres.  Hardly a way to control the herd.  I shoot primarily does but will take a good buck if it presents itself.  While punching tags is not the joy I take out of hunting, unfortunately over the last 10 years it has become a necessity.  Hence the iron-sighter for still-hunting when I'm down to my last tag or two.

[crow_feather]

Nice try Andy,

Ever think of a tall fence?  Ever think of offering others to assist with this dedicated drudgery you are forced to do?  Have I ever seen a message on Greybeard that says, Hey, I need help from my muzzleloading friends to clear my crops of deer?    You work all summer to find a load that will kill at 500 yards.  Why not work all summer to put up a fence that keeps the deer out of your fields? 

I once had a person write that it was easier, faster, and more convienent to shoot an in-line, and since the rules allowed them, he was going to use them.  I may not like his rifle, but I admire an honest person.

[captchee]

 Once again your right andy we don’t have a traditional archery season . However we do have an archery season that does not allow cross bows  or any other design that will hold a bolt or arrow at full draw . Even the wheel bows have restrictions on the amount of let off and weight and thickness of the broad head. We don allow electronic tracing devices or any thing electronic to be attached to the bow or arrow . Nor do we allow scopes

 it’s the same with fishing . You have light tackle folks   that are in it for the fight and challenge . They don’t care what it  is , trout  to marline  .  Others who don’t care and  use what ever it takes to get the  fish in .
 we have fly fisherman , dry fly fisherman  and spen casters .  need i point out that we also have areas and steams designated for strictly those  sports . why  becouse they have the same issues that the muzzleloaders have .

IE fundamental differences in points of view and purpose..

 Se where you make a statement about taking two guns ?
  For my it make no since ?  This isn’t to attack you personally but basically  the line of thought   .
 To me it makes no difference be it muzzleloader or  canter fire . IMO if a person  can see an intended target  and it to far out of range for their rifle , then “THEY” must get closer  ,. Sure it su#$ when the target is out of range but that’s life .
 Again we get back to the want it now mentality . IE dang that’s 300 yards  better grab this 50cal AK , super dooper , multi shot , laser guided , heat seeking shot gun .

 I see no sport in that

 As to game management . it’s a hard road . Especially when you have large land owner who close off or sell rights to their lands . When they refuse to follow  the management plans of the public land needs around them ?
 Well that a complete different  heated discussion .

As to a fixed amount of time . Im sorry there is no such thing . This is the very  emotional mentality that has made the problems with our game herds .
 
 How many other predators do you know  that feel its only ethical to take  game  at a set given time of year ?
 Mother nature doesn’t have a set time table  and left alone she will take care of the problem . Granted not on our  schedule and   defiantly not in a way we want to see but it will happen 

Once again  the problem between traditional  shooters and modern IMO is  fundamental differences in points of view and purpose… when it comes to hunting especially.

 Myself , your tree stand , I would be more the willing to wait for the deer to come into range  or put on a stock  or try a new set up way before I would ever reach for a different rifle . For me  doing that is simple not what its all about . IE fundamental differences in points of view and purpose..

[AndyHass]

Saying we have restrictions on bows is really reaching...there are no weight or let-off restrictions on our seasons, only for Pope+Young qualification.

Two guns is because I'd rather hunt for the enjoyment but at the end of the day, I must reduce the herd and if it takes a 200yd shot I'll do what I have to.  Saying "get closer" does not apply to a deer standing 200yd from anything in the middle of a flat, open dirt field without cover for a mouse.  I can't set up anywhere else due to houses and other restrictions.  If you can wait for the next one good for you, but I get about 5 days to hunt a year and I have a dozen deer to take out in that time.  I'll do it with iron sights when I can, but that is not always possible.  Frankly, there is no sport in shooting any deer from withing 40 yards with ANY gun, unless you file the sights off.  Shooting a deer at 40 yards with traditional equipment is easier than taking one at 200 yds with modern equipment....I've done both so I can testify to that.  The only challenge is if you stalk...if you're on stand, it's fish in a barrel unless you're a poor shot.

Yes, there is a fixed amount of time, try hunting deer in March and see how long you do that before you're fined and lose your licenses.

Mother nature no longer is in control of our herds, we removed all predators but us and a few coyotes.  The populations glut themselves on our crops and over-populate, and the only thing that will cut their numbers is hunting.  As I have indicated, few people want to shoot does so the problem compounds every year.  When I started hunting 20 years ago, it was indeed a challenge to get 1-2 deer every year hunting daily.  Now, I hunt about 5 days and take 6-10 per year.  There is no longer much challenge in it with any weapon, if I want challenge I use my bow as there is none with ANY gun.

[captchee]

 we have  such restrictions on bows here

as i said

fundamental differences in points of view and purpose

 i would suggest that maybe one should in your case then push for longer general cartridge seasons so as to take the greatest advantage of  hunter populations  or consider depredation hunts  to help thin the herd .
 I would also submit that if you have problems with houses and human population in your area as you say . Then IMO  your hunt should be a short range only hunt  and frankly   the range of your weapon  should remove it from  that area  unless  restricted .

 mother nature WILL take care of things  .disease  will happen if the numbers get to high .
as i said we  humans are the only one on a time table .
Even we are subject to her laws and rules , that’s simply the way of it

 here we get one animal a year  unless a depredation is called . that 1 deer , 1 bear , 1 elk , 1 lope and if your really luck a once in a lifetime moose

[hpdrifter]

If I'm on stand I'll often carry both MLs into the field, and use the inline only if the deer are too far out in the open field and can't be stalked.  I'll always prefer iron sights at heart.

Therein lies the difference between traditional and modern. You says it yoself.

[AndyHass]

Range is not an issue as long as I don't shoot at someone's house.  I think that's pretty easy to understand.

hpdrifter, I bet you feel very superior with your ideals.  When your family's welfare depends partly on your ability to eliminate overpopulated game, come back and talk.

You know why caplocks replaced flinters so quickly?  It was an easier and more efficient way to take game and made things easier.  I guess they were lazy and inferior in the 1830s too.

If you are limited to 1 deer 1 bear etc, you live in an area far different from me.  I suggest you try to understand the situation here before you pass judgement.

Sure, nature will take charge with things like CWD and TB.  We have a major TB problem as a result.  Now there are restrictions on beef export from the state, farmers are losing their herds when they test positive, and it's nearly impossible to eradicate once it's there.  Hunting is a much better way to balance things and less painful on everyone involved.

The past exchanges illustrate my point wonderfully.  Rather than talk about shooting, it's always why everyone should do it your way and are morally bankrupt if they do not.   I'd say I'd like to get a flinter some day as I've never gotten into that, but based on the exchanges here I wonder if I really do if this is representative of the company I'd have to keep.  Fortunately I know this is probably a vocal minority I'm hearing, but it's the loudest voice here nonetheless.

Guess I'll go elsewhere for info on restoring my great-great-great-great grandfather's 1830-vintage rifle....I see more politics than real info here.

[captchee]

Range is not an issue as long as I don't shoot at someone's house.  I think that's pretty easy to understand.

 ohh i think i understand perfictly  range is never an issue if you can weave you way around someones back yard , through the swing set , over the gerage  LMAO

You know why caplocks replaced flinters so quickly?  It was an easier and more efficient way to take game and made things easier.  I guess they were lazy and inferior in the 1830s too.

 yes i do , apparently you don’t have a very firm grasp .  Un tell  about 40 some years back with the advent of  time photography , the flintlock was thought to be faster then a cap ignition .
 Caps replaced flints not because of reliability but because of easy of use.  Its much easier to place a cap then  keep a flint aligned  and sharp ,. Powder away from the flash hole and prime dry .
 However the ignition is no hotter , follows the same  channel  but for an improved breech .
 Not to mention #11 caps are not  in most cases water resistant like modern 209 .

If you are limited to 1 deer 1 bear etc, you live in an area far different from me.  I suggest you try to understand the situation here before you pass judgement.

  now how is it that you know anything about me ? you assume .
 you assume wrong

Sure, nature will take charge with things like CWD and TB.  We have a major TB problem as a result.  Now there are restrictions on beef export from the state, farmers are losing their herds when they test positive, and it's nearly impossible to eradicate once it's there.  Hunting is a much better way to balance things and less painful on everyone involved.

The past exchanges illustrate my point wonderfully.  Rather than talk about shooting, it's always why everyone should do it your way and are morally bankrupt if they do not.   I'd say I'd like to get a flinter some day as I've never gotten into that, but based on the exchanges here I wonder if I really do if this is representative of the company I'd have to keep.  Fortunately I know this is probably a vocal minority I'm hearing, but it's the loudest voice here nonetheless.

Guess I'll go elsewhere for info on restoring my great-great-great-great grandfather's 1830-vintage rifle....I see more politics than real info here.

 Once again you prove  the traditionalist point . You basically have no other reason then to take another animal as easily as you can . Its not about the hunt , it not about a challenge .

 It always amazes me how  when confronted with the fact of  large numbers of hunters  in the general cartridge season for management   the modern shooters are cold  to it . That would have to do with the fact that then you would have to deal with large numbers of hunters  and thus make your weapon   un necessary  would it ?.
 Maybe more to the issue that  no longer would the modern shooter be in  the advantage  , in a season with low hunter numbers

 Its about out doing the fella next to you . You simple have to shoot farther , its about the easy of utility  and simple want .
 You talk about  its always got to be our way ? I submit to you that all through this thread its been  why it has to be your way . First its that you were  also shot traditional . But then we find out you keep two guns in the tree stand ,,, just in case . Then its  need to maintain the family land plot from over population .
 But its not your fault  it’s the guy across the road that  does not maintain the herd on his land .
 Lets not forget the houses you have to watch out for but range is not an issue .
 Now its bovine TB  LMAO or is it wasting .
 Its always the same when confronted with  the real issue .
Again we get week excuses   poor performance and the its got to be our way BLA BLA 

 I have tried to be polite , speak just to the issues but frankly  I have came to wonder if in fact its you  who do not understand the issues  and hence have been making up  things to justify the short coming of your weapon ?

once again completely diffrent
fundamental differences in points of view and purpose of hunting .

 Be safe and have a good evening

[hpdrifter]

ain't gonna bother discussing it further.  two different view points and I don't wanna prolong this dialog.

Just got one question; ever heard of an atlatl?  It prolly put more challenge in the hunt for you since it's all so easy and you probably wouldn't have to dodge the houses.  But, of course they haven't improved them that much yet either.