Browning Assumes Winchester Rifles & Shotguns!!!

[Rogmatt]

http://www.winchester.com/pressroom/news/pressreleases/releasedetail.aspx?storyid=172

[coyote trapper1928]

A few questions come to mind:


1. They signed a "Long term" licensing agreement with Browning for the manufacture and distribution of Winchester Brand rifles and shotguns. That's good!! But, which rifles and shotguns will Browning manufacture and distribute under the Winchester brand name?

2. Will Browning manufacture the Model 94 Lever Action Rifle?? It would be great if they did come back with the Winchester Model 94 rifle, but I think it would be competition with the Browning Model 81 lever action rifle. Don't know if there is room for 2 lever action rifles of different brand names from the same company.

3.  What will the Browning made Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle look like? What will the price be like?  I know from comparing the Browning A-Bolt and the Winchester Model 70 rifles side by side, the Browning looks much nicer compared to the Winchester. The Winchester Model 70 in the last year seemed to have a plain Satin finish. The Walnut stock, also, was not as fancy as that on a Browning A-bolt.

4.  Will Browning offer a better selection of left hand Model 70 rifles  than what Winchester offered?  There are a LOT!! of left hand hunters out there that don't have much of a selection  when it comes to bolt action rifles.

5. Will Browning manufacture the Model 9422 and the Model 9417 Rimfire Lever Action Rifles? There is a BIG market for those rifles!!

6. When it comes to shotguns, I wish Browning would bring back the old XTR line of Winchester shotguns. The fit and finish and Walnut stocks on those shotguns were outstanding!!

7. I wish that Browning would end production of the Winchester over/under shotguns and bring into production an affordable side by side shotgun.  Something like the old Model 23 or Model 24 double barrel shotgun.

8. Don't know what Browning will do with the new Winchester semi auto centerfire rifle , but if they want to come out with something new , then they should manufacture a pump action centerfire rifle. Right now, Remington has the only slide action centerfire rifle on the market, I think.   A Browning manufactured, Winchester brand named, slide action rifle would really sell!!

[rebel dunn]

It could be a deal like Savage /Stevens. The Brownings being the top shelf stuff while the Winchester being  the working man's rifles.

[Mac11700]

7. I wish that Browning would end production of the Winchester over/under shotguns and bring into production an affordable side by side shotgun.  Something like the old Model 23 or Model 24 double barrel shotgun.

While I too wish they would offer a Belgin made SxS...at an affordable price...just as they are doing now with the O/U's.....and they would have to do it under the Winchester name to be able to have the price range there...I in no way want them to stop producing my Supreme OU's...they are too good a bargin and shoot great...I've had 3 of them..2 in the sporting varity and now an additional 26" field version...They are super nice and shot where you aim...

Mac

[Hairtrigger]

I could see where the 94 would be a nice addition to Browning as they do not offer the BLR in 30-30  or even for that matter a "traditional" lever action.
If they would make these with modern machinery in a non union shop they should be able to make them reasonably cost effective

[coyote trapper1928]

I thought Winchester at one time, made some rifles or shotguns in Japan. Could Browning go back to the old factories in Japan and restart production there?  Any guess as to when new Winchester rifles and shotguns will be on the market?

Thanks,

[Savage .250]

  That`s good news......... i think but it also raises more questions then answers.
   Both companies  make/made quality arms so what`s the end product of this marriage going to look like? What models make the cut?
   Bring back the Win 94........... in the pre-64 condition.

[coyote trapper1928]

Could they start production for the Fall hunting season?

[coyote trapper1928]

Browning must be getting a lot of calls inquiring about the Winchester brand. I just tried to call their 800 number, and I got a recorded message saying " All curcuits are busy, try your call later."

[coyote trapper1928]

No new products till next year.

[35Rem]

Don't guess there was too big of a market for the model 70, 94, and 1300, as USRAC (Browning and Winchester) decided to stop production. Just not sure they are coming back.  John Taffin's article in the back of the most recent GUNS mag is somewhat depressing, but somewhat true, I fear.  The end of Winchester in America is a bad thing.

#2 - The 94 wouldn't compete w/ the BLR, in that the BLR is chambered for bigger cartridges.  They were both made simultaniously for years prioir.

#7 - SxS Shotgun.  Don't see it.  At best a foreign made (like Turkey) import. Maybe.

#8. RE pump Rifle- Browning DID make a pump rifle, the BPR.  It' obviously didn't go over too well, as it was dropped after a few years.  It was a nice rifle, based on the BAR, but didn't sell well enough.

Just My Honest Opinion

[Keith L]

"If they would make these with modern machinery in a non union shop they should be able to make them reasonably cost effective"

Maybe if we have them make it in the third world it can be made by slave labor and be even cheaper still.

[DWTim]

Maybe if they pay a decent salary, they'd get some ol' moss-backed machinists who know what they're doing, union or non-union.

[Graybeard]

Strictly speaking Browning IS NOT a manufacturer of anything. They contract for the manufacturer with various other companies. Most notably the Japanese firm of Miroku where all the O/U and SxS shotguns are made. I think they aslo made all the single shot rifles both HW and LW and the various Winchester repro guns.

What they don't make FN makes. The Herstahl group owns all three companies. So to say Browning will assume production is kinda silly if you ask me. It's all in the family but Browning don't make anything.

[crash87]

What this would seem to me is that the Herstahl group is just continueing the contract they already have to keep producing the Japanese made Winchesters, the '92, '95, '86, etc. They never did stop production of those rifles. Its also not about paying some ol' moss- back machinist a decent salary, they did that. Its about making some suit who doesnt give a damn about you,me, and an American institution, a six figure salary, (before bonuses). Stop wishing for this model or that, its the bean counter who is going to decide what piece of crap is going to make the most profit, and when it doesnt, they move on to what "they" think we want. Example; Have you seen the "NEW" Winchester .22 Wildcat? Nice huh? I wouldnt use that thing to poke the ashes in my campfire. If you want a pump shotgun, put an 870 and a BPS in a side by side comparison. Remington wins all the way. Its not what the buying "American Public" wants to buy, how the hell would some foriegn interest know what we want anyway? CRASH 87

[Hairtrigger]

The last time I put a 870 and a BPS side by side I gave the 870 back to the clerk and purchased the BPS!! Rem screwed up the 870 when they used firewood for a stock and called it "express"

[George Foster]

Did you ever try matching a 870 Wingmaster up to a BPS?  What you are stating is kind of like comparing oranges to apples.  You also forget the Express sells for about $300 less doesn't it?

[coyote trapper1928]

It would be nice if Browning reintroduced the Winchester Model 9417 Lever Action Rifle in the .17 HMR. What do you all think the chances are of that happening?

[poncaguy]

I noticed on the TV hunting show ads, they are still advertsing Winchester Model 70's..........must have a large supply of them still........

[SuperstitionCoues]

Did you ever try matching a 870 Wingmaster up to a BPS?  What you are stating is kind of like comparing oranges to apples.  You also forget the Express sells for about $300 less doesn't it?

Nope.  I was just shopping recently.  A BPS 20 ga. costs $419.00, a comparable Wingmaster 870 runs close to $600. here in Az.  I'll take the Browning any day of the week.  They did everything right when they designed the BPS; I'm looking at the Win. Select and Brown. Citori shotguns now - saving my pennies.

I will take a Browning/Winchester, wherever it's made, over a Remington any day.

[catman]

Winchester will never be the same as it was on it's own, this will be in firearms history forever...

[while99]

I have to agree with Hairtrigger.  If the Model 70 and the Model 94 were made in a non-union shop or a right-to-work state, they could be made just as well and competitively priced and USRAC would be making money.

[Keith L]

I have to agree with Hairtrigger.  If the Model 70 and the Model 94 were made in a non-union shop or a right-to-work state, they could be made just as well and competitively priced and USRAC would be making money.

That is a foolish assumption.  The labor cost in that product is not the problem.  Labor cost less than 10% of the price to consumers most likely.  My guess is an outdated plant with all the associated polution remediation costs were more likely.  And think about it: if the product were truly saleable and labor was the only issue then they would have done what so many other good American companies have done lately and moved production to a slave labor camp in China.  That takes the cost right down there for Labor doesn't it.  Only problem with that is soon no one here can afford to buy the products.  Everyone can be working for minumum wage at Wal Mart.

Have a nice day.

[while99]

"The labor cost in that product is not the problem.  Labor cost less than 10% of the price to consumers most likely."

How do you know that the labor cost is not the problem?  How do you know that labor cost is less than 10% of the price to the consumers?  Without access to USRAC's books, you don't know how much of their products' price is parts and how much is labor.  The bean counters determine that and then decide on a price.   

I don't want the Model 70 made in China, or any other country for that matter, and wouldn't buy one if they were.     

[dukkillr]

I used to consider myself a winchester guy.  My favorite shotguns are still winchesters, from when they were a good product (pre-64).  I don't know about labor cost vs. quality but I could afford to buy their guns, and I would buy them if they made a good product.  They don't, and I don't give my money for crap. 

If they move winchester over seas and start making good guns again, i'll buy them.  I'll buy american over foreign if the quality is equal and the cost is reasonably close.  I will not waste my hard earned money supporting lazy american workers who produce a crap product trying cash in on a much diminished American Icon.

If american workers don't produce a good product at a reasonable price I don't feel like they deserve my support.

[Keith L]

"The labor cost in that product is not the problem.  Labor cost less than 10% of the price to consumers most likely."

How do you know that the labor cost is not the problem?  How do you know that labor cost is less than 10% of the price to the consumers?  Without access to USRAC's books, you don't know how much of their products' price is parts and how much is labor.  The bean counters determine that and then decide on a price.   

I don't want the Model 70 made in China, or any other country for that matter, and wouldn't buy one if they were.     

Manufacturing is my business.  If labor cost were more than 10% then the fault is entirely the management for allowing such poor systems to be in place.  The union that represented the workers there was the Machinists Union, one of the most progressive labor organizations in the world, with a record of progressive labor relations, and an infrastructure of modern manufacturing practices and relationships.  They brought this tradition to Harley Davidson, and helped to make it successful.

For your information the bean counters no longer deteremine price.  That statement proves you are living in the past.  The market determines the price.  Then a manufacturer needs to design systems that allow them to make it at a profit. Most apparently the market determined that Winchester didn't make it.  I had two model 94s.  I kept my older one: it was well made and worked.  My new model 94 I sold when I had the chance.  It was junk.  Perhaps if the product was truly what the market wanted at the right price then it would still be here.

I won't buy a foregn product if I have a choice.  Many American manufacturers have decided to take their production overseas under the mistaken assumption that they can produce cheaper in Asia.  Often unit cost is lower, but if the total cost of offshore manufacturing is calculated there rarely is a savings.  I have participated in sourcing decisions with a large number of companies, and in all cases the economic decision was favorable to make prodict for domestic consumption here in the US.  The most successful car company in the world, Toyota, clusters their suppliers within 150 miles of their plants.  Yet American car makers are rushing to satisfy stockholders with the unrealized promise of increased profits by stretching their already shakey supply chains to China.  Go figure.

One last point: quality calls are rarely made on the shop floor.  Consistent poor quality is also a management decision.  Blaming that on the workers is a cop out.  If the management is so poor that they allow bad quality, or more likely design in poor quality, then they deserve the credit for a company failure.  Workers can only work to the standards they are given, with the materials and equipment they are given.  To blame them for consistent poor quality is a cop out.  But no matter who you blame the result is the same: product is lost and so are jobs.

 

[while99]

Union rhetoric.

The real bottom line is that it is still cheaper to manufacture in a non-union shop.  That lower cost burden can be applied to the product and the savings passed along to the consumer in the form of a lower price.

[dukkillr]

I don't doubt that management is to blame as well.  I don't care who is to blame, if the product sucks I won't buy it.  If Winchesters were produced in the way the road construction is progressing outside my office I'm surprised they lasted as long as they did.  Consistently there are twice as many certified observers than people actually doing work.  I wish my job worked that way.  Course management should grow a pair and fight the system that allows such waste.  Both sides are at fault. 

[while99]

"For your information the bean counters no longer deteremine price.  That statement proves you are living in the past.  The market determines the price."

Oh, so the big oil companies really aren't gouging us at the pump.  They are merely "reacting" to market forces and the market is determining the price.  That explains why Exxon-Mobil could give their retiring chairman a $400 million (not forty, four-hundred) severance package. 

Thanks for the info.

[Keith L]

Union rhetoric.

The real bottom line is that it is still cheaper to manufacture in a non-union shop.  That lower cost burden can be applied to the product and the savings passed along to the consumer in the form of a lower price.

Once again an uninformed opinion.  I worked with hundreds of companies across the US for the past 10 years as a consultant, and found that a union represented workforce was far easier and quicker to move to a proactive manufacturing strategy.  If handled well and fairly then a union can be a teriffic advantage for a company.  If the old way prevails with power bargaining and seeing who can do the most damage to each other then there is no hope anyway.