Author Topic: 25-06: 117 gr vs. 100gr? (Read 4150 times)

deerandduck · « **on:** August 18, 2006, 02:39:23 AM »

OK 25-06 ers,
Just got a Stevens 200 25-06. Trying to decide between 117 gr vs. 100 gr. Will be used for smaller AL deer, mostly under 300 yds. Yes, I have other calibers that work for that real nice also, but I've always wanted a 25-06. So how about some handloads, especially in a savage/stevens, and some field experience. It may be no real difference, but I needed to get my post count up. BTW, I'm not a huge fan of prem. bullets, i.e. Barnes TSX, Nosler Part, etc. Those are just not required for what I do.

thanks,
deerandduck.

nomosendero · « **Reply #1 on:** August 18, 2006, 02:58:12 AM »

Is this the only thing that you will be doing with this gun & what is the maximum range?

Skeptic10787 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 18, 2006, 04:19:48 AM »

If super-premium isn't your bag, I think most will agree that the hornady 117 interlocks will give darn good performance at a more realistic price. I'm not a big fan of giving out load info since every rifle is different, but I'll tell you that H4831SC and IMR4350 wouldn't be a bad place to start.
If you're not into premium performance at all, I'd tell you to go to Walmart and pick up a box of factory 100gr Core-lokts. Call me crazy, but I can't count how many bang-flops I've had with that round before I started handloading.

Don Fischer · « **Reply #3 on:** August 18, 2006, 04:24:31 AM »

Either bullet will work fine. But I just don't care for 100gr 25cal bullets, most people do. I'm also not a big fan of premium bullets but see their advanages. I can't imagine any advantage for them in a 25-06. I see a 25-06 as a max deer cartridge and I know that there is those that believe that the choice of bullet turns it into something else, not me!

I also see it as a max 300yd cartridge. For a deer at 300yds any bullet from 100grs up will work on deer. My own choice is the 117gr Hornady. In my rifle I get just under 3100fps and can hold dead on out to 300yds, just over 4" low at 300.

I've read that the 100gr is a quicker killer and that might be true. What I've noticed with the 117gr bullet is that it appears to be a bit hard, never recovered one. But most of the deer I've killed with them, all mule deer and up to 300#, take a shot in the lungs and wobble around a bit then fall down. I've never seen one go more than about 20yds with a good lung shot. I did shoot one as it jumped a fence once and it took off like it was missed. But it only made about 20yds and folded up.

The only thing I've shot with the 100gr bullets, also Hornady's, are cotoye's and a few porcupine's. They look like they got electrocuted! I'd concider keeping both loads around but I'm a one load per rifle guy. I think that each cartridge excells and give's it's user the most confidence with one load. Confidence is a big factor in a cartridges ability to kill, you shoot best what you feel confident in and it's only your best shot that count's!

I think at this point you should try a bunch of different bullets from different makers, you'll find one you like and no matter what anyone else say's, that will be "ole' death and distruction". And like the poster above, I like IMR 4350 and H 4831. Many people hace good luck with RL22, I haven't but them I've a lot of confidence in 4350 and 4831 and tend to stick with what works.

deerandduck · « **Reply #4 on:** August 18, 2006, 04:51:24 AM »

Thanks for all the replys.

Yes, I only plan on paper punching and deer hunting with this. And where I hunt, you're very lucky to see 300 yds. I know it has other uses but that will come. Maybe I'll get a trip "out West" and have some longer shot opportunities.

I am starting with some Rem 120 corlok to do the initial sight-in and to get some fireformed brass. I too also like the Hornady bullets. I have been looking at Re22 and IMR4350, as I already have those powders. I really only use handloads, its just fun.

Sounds like I'll be going with the 117s. Starting with Hornadys, then maybe Sierra.

deerandduck

nomosendero · « **Reply #5 on:** August 18, 2006, 09:32:00 AM »

deerandduck, the choice of a premium bullet only turns it into a better bullet, it does not mean you start hunting other animals with it. I use a premium bullet sometimes with a 25-06 if the Deer are big & I may want to do a high shoulder shot up close. Not a biggie, since your question is about small Deer, a premium is not required for that, but not a bad thing if your gun shoots it better, that's reason enough for those who want the best accuracy if that is what your rifle likes, regardless of caliber & it would not matter if you did not need it to harvest the animal in that case.

Some 100 gr. bullets do very well in the rib cage & can do well period, but I believe that the 117-120 gr. is better for Deer. The Hor. will work well for your limited application & I have seen alot of bang flops with the 117Sierra(more than any other cal.). The bullet is a little soft, I may not opt for a close shoulder shoot on a Mature Buck up close, but it is a good killer.

You will have more than enough energy for all of you conditions stated, the 25-06 has plenty of energy out to 400 yards on bigger bucks as well, the reloading manuals will show you that & is not marginal, plus with a good bullet the 120gr. has about the same Sec. Den. as a 140 gr. 270.
We have covered that in the past in great detail, www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,83913.0.html

The 117 Sierra SBT is extremely accurate
For the 100 gr., I would go with H4831 or RL22, for the 120, RL 22 works & RL25 is unbelievable.

Todd1700 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 18, 2006, 09:35:24 PM »

I use 117 Hornadys in my 25-06 here in Alabama and they give excellent service. My results are very similar to Dons in that I have yet to recover one and the deer I have shot didn't go very far at all. Some didn't go anywhere. The 100 grain bullets may be a little more frangible and therefore possibly give you a few more dropped on the spot kills. I know people who swear by them and use nothing else. For me however I think the 117 grain Hornady bullet offers just the right amount of expansion vs penetration. I guess it's the bowhunter in me but I like an exit hole.

Quote

I'm also not a big fan of premium bullets but see their advanages. I can't imagine any advantage for them in a 25-06.

Depends on what kind of premium bullet you are talking about but I pretty much agree. I can't see the advantages of super tough controlled expansion bullets on our Bama deer. And as Don said a premium bullet isn't going to turn a 25-06 into a elk gun. I can't imagine what any of them could do that the Hornadys aren't doing now.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2006, 05:11:47 AM »

While I do love all the Premium bullets..I absolutly hate paying the cost for them

...but...since you don't see any need for them...I won't recommend you try any of Federals Fusion 120 grainers..even though they cost a lot less than some of the other manufactures regular ammunition and come with their new premium bonded bullet that is usually extreamly accurate in most folks rifles..Nope...I wouldn't want you to try them...because it might change you whole perspective on using a Premium bullet

I also wouldn't want you to try any of these Premium Winchester/Nosler Combined Technology's Silver Ballistic Tips....

...nope...I wouldn't want to see that happen...Even though these can be bought by anyone at just $1.00-$2.00 more per box than the standard ballistic tips and sometimes even less...and I'm sure you not the least bit interested that these bullets jacket are designed a-bit different than the standard BT's..in that they will hold up better if a close shot presents itself...and that the Lubalox coating will...Sorry...No-Sir-Ree...just no need for any of that...

Mac

Blackhawk44 · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2006, 08:01:56 PM »

I had perfect results on 15 head of deer with the pre-Interlock 100 grain Hornadys. Recovered only one bullet, perfectly mushroomed, from a full neck to pelvis shot. All the rest were complete penetrations with good wound channels. All were one shot stops. All of these were from a load that chronographed well over 3300 fps. I see little need for premiums or heavies with these results.

deerandduck · « **Reply #9 on:** August 21, 2006, 02:03:00 AM »

Love all the discussion. Thanks for the replys.
I did not, by any means, mean for this thread to transform into the dreaded "premium bullet vs. other bullets" discussion.
My bottom line is to get the most accurate bullet in a bullet weight that will do the job I want. Thats why I handload.
thanks.
deerandduck.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2006, 04:19:46 AM »

Quote from: deerandduck on August 21, 2006, 02:03:00 AM

Love all the discussion. Thanks for the replys.
I did not, by any means, mean for this thread to transform into the dreaded "premium bullet vs. other bullets" discussion.
My bottom line is to get the most accurate bullet in a bullet weight that will do the job I want. Thats why I handload.
thanks.
deerandduck.

Wasn't trying to take it there...just a little tounge & cheek humor...Just wanted to show you that you can use certain premiums to cover all your needs for a lot less than some folks know.The Silver Ballistic Tips are very good bullets..and usually give the handloader excellent service. More so over the standard BT's since their jackets & bases are thicker ...this makes them hold up better on closer shots.Their Lubalox coating is also another benifit..and they generate less pressure than their uncoated bullets...Some don't consider them premiums..but I consider them the premium of the ballistic tips...While you may only have a 200 or so yard shot right now..that could always change and you need a load that is accurate much further...so it doesn't hurt to develope one for it..It's better to have it..and not use it...than to need it and not have it....Like Don said earlier...try a bunch of different bullets and see which does best out of your rifle..then make your decision on that..They all will kill a deer..large and small...but how you want it to preform once inside the animal will depend on how close you are..and how the bullet is made..For me personally...I want the bullet to expand nicely at all ranges..and not seperate..and give a complete pass thru..I feel this gives the best result on whatever I am hunting..others may differ..and that's ok..As to the Federal Fusion ammo...it's well worth trying a box of them..who knows...if they shoot well for you...you might not have to look any further for your 25-06 deer load..They are usually only a couple dollars more than the Remingtons...and severaldollars less than the Hornady's..

Mac

Todd1700 · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2006, 04:34:25 AM »

Quote

I see little need for premiums or heavies with these results.

I agree Blackhawk44. I've killed somewhere between 80 and 90 deer here in Alabama with firearms. Some with a shotgun way back when but most with a rifle. I used standard lead tipped bullets on over 90 percent of the rifle kills. I've never lost a deer due to bullet failure. I spent one year using Nosler Partitions but for whitetails I just honestly didn't see the big deal. They killed deer but no better than what I had been using. And despite being a premium bullet they grouped way worse out of my rifle than several standard bullets. I saw enough bad results first hand via friends and family to never want to use ballistic tips. Nor do I have any desire to try any form of bonded ballistic tips. Also if you and I are getting exit holes with what we are using now then I also don't see what the benefit of some super tough Barnes X-bullet, Swift A-frame or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would be. Does my bullet burying into the ground a little further on the other side of a deer have any practical advantages of which I am not aware?

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2006, 06:55:34 AM »

I shot a buck this past season with my first 25/06. I was shooting my brotherinlaw's favorite bullet ,a 120gr Sierra HP. The first thing to hit the ground was his chin. That was the first BANG/FLOP I've had for a while and it was impressive. The Remington 120s didn't shoot worth a poot in my rifle and I had to go through a couple packs of bullets til I found a load tht suited me. H1000 finally did the job for me.

I tried the 100 gr bullets from Hornady and got decent accuracy brfore I started playing with the 120s.

HWD

SuperstitionCoues · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2006, 09:08:06 AM »

I like the Sierra SBT or Hornady BTSP's and SST's in 117. So far, my Ruger M77MkII works best with H4831 or RL22. I am leaning towards developing loads with IMR 4831 also, just as an experiment. One thing that I have found constant in all of the loads though, are Winchester primers. My accuracy, typically at 0.5 to .75 with either bullet in this rifle, declines rapidly if I change the primer from a Winchester. Hope this helps, and I hope you enjoy this caliber as much as I have over the years.

nomosendero · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2006, 10:43:14 AM »

Quote from: Blackhawk44 on August 20, 2006, 08:01:56 PM

I had perfect results on 15 head of deer with the pre-Interlock 100 grain Hornadys. Recovered only one bullet, perfectly mushroomed, from a full neck to pelvis shot. All the rest were complete penetrations with good wound channels. All were one shot stops. All of these were from a load that chronographed well over 3300 fps. I see little need for premiums or heavies with these results.

Nope, if you like your results I don't see a need to change either. As you can see most of us like the heavier bullets but we don't all hunt the same Deer. A friend of mine that has killed 150 or so Ozark Deer loves that same 100 grain Hornady bullet. There is of course some latitude in bullet selection for Deer as they vary greatly in size. Here in AR(Eastern Part) we have Bean fed riverbottom bucks that look more like Northern Deer, many of these NE AR Bucks may go over 250#. It is not that a bullet like this won't work on these Deer, it is just sensible to be prepared for any angle that presents itself & if it is a frontal shoulder shot that presents itself up close on a Big Buck, I would prefer the heavier bullet or a tougher bullet.

Bullet selection is not real critical for the 150# Deer, some of you have stated in the past that is the Deer you have available to hunt. This is the other extreme from a large Mule Deer or an Alberta Whitetail so choose accordingly. And as I said before, in SOME guns the premium may shoot better & that would be reason enough to use a pre. bullet even on a small Deer. I live on the Eastern edge of the Ozarks & I hunt these Deer mostly but I also hunt the Riverbottoms East of my house as well. I don't switch bullets from a Western hunt to the different local hunts, so I use good bullets. And in some calibers the Accubond shoots better in SOME guns than any other(I hear that alot now) & if that is the case I would use it.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #15 on:** August 21, 2006, 08:13:14 PM »

Quote

Yes, I only plan on paper punching and deer hunting with this. And where I hunt, you're very lucky to see 300 yds. I know it has other uses but that will come. Maybe I'll get a trip "out West" and have some longer shot opportunities.

Quote

My bottom line is to get the most accurate bullet in a bullet weight that will do the job I want. Thats why I handload.

Your 2 statements says a-lot...but...in order to do what you want...you will most likely have to go thru several different brands and compare them.If you are of the same frame of mind as what was posted here..

Quote

Also if you and I are getting exit holes with what we are using now then I also don't see what the benefit of some super tough Barnes X-bullet, Swift A-frame or Trophy Bonded Bear Claw would be. Does my bullet burying into the ground a little further on the other side of a deer have any practical advantages of which I am not aware?

...then bullet's terminal performance doesn't mean anything...and any cup&core bullet should suffice for typical hunting but with no gaurentee's...However...if you are the type of Handloader who holds a bullets total performance at all yardages as a requiem for good hunting...then looking at the premium quality bullets isn't a bad idea...but almost mandatory...

It seems some folks here...love to generalize just about everything...leaving them an "out" so-to-speak..so they can weasle out of being showed they are wrong...Here's the plain truth as I see it...Just because someone or myself says Premium...it doesn't always have to carry a super high price tag...a top performer it means as well....and...most importantly... your rifle may or may not shoot "cheap"(ie cost or performance) type bullets worth a durn...If it does...and your happy with the results...that's great...If it doesn't...then you will have to explore different avenues to achieve your goals...If price is an issue...then look towards some of the other "Premium" bullets available by Nosler.... Nosler/Winchester..(aka Combined Technologies)...Remington...and yes...even Hornady....They may cost more than some bulk priced special...but will give the type of performance you might want without having to take out a second mortgage on the house........And while the 3 mentioned bullets in the quotes above may be very expensive to some as compared to many other types available...They come with an understanding from the manufactures that they won't fail to do as they are advertised to do...provide they are used as suggested....

I have a few quick question for you deerandduck....What if the 3 mentioned bullets in the quotes above are the only type that will give you the total performance you are seeking? What then? Are you willing to sacrifice and settle for a lower standard of total performance from another cheaper load combination?...If so...then this point is moot...If not......welcome to the club..

Mac

The Sodbuster · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2006, 04:26:53 PM »

HuntsWithDogs offered

Quote

I was shooting my brotherinlaw's favorite bullet ,a 120gr Sierra HP. The first thing to hit the ground was his chin. That was the first BANG/FLOP I've had for a while and it was impressive.

Now granted, I don't know your brother-in-law; heck, for all I know, he might have deserved it. But impressive or not,this seems like awfully harsh treatment for an in-law. Especially considering you used his favorite bullet on him. I guess it's a sort of poetic justice if he had it coming.

huntswithdogs · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2006, 03:28:24 AM »

Sometimes you get the bear and sometime the bear gets you !!!

He never felt a thing !

HWD

Todd1700 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2006, 04:44:28 AM »

Quote

Now granted, I don't know your brother-in-law; heck, for all I know, he might have deserved it. But impressive or not,this seems like awfully harsh treatment for an in-law.

Yeah I hope we don't have to dredge up that whole "Is it okay to shoot your In-Laws" debate again. Man that topic got pretty heated.

nomosendero · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2006, 02:45:02 PM »

Quote from: The Sodbuster on August 23, 2006, 04:26:53 PM

HuntsWithDogs offered
Quote
I was shooting my brotherinlaw's favorite bullet ,a 120gr Sierra HP. The first thing to hit the ground was his chin. That was the first BANG/FLOP I've had for a while and it was impressive.

Now granted, I don't know your brother-in-law; heck, for all I know, he might have deserved it. But impressive or not,this seems like awfully harsh treatment for an in-law. Especially considering you used his favorite bullet on him. I guess it's a sort of poetic justice if he had it coming.

Good one!

nomosendero · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2006, 02:46:33 PM »

Quote from: huntswithdogs on August 24, 2006, 03:28:24 AM

Sometimes you get the bear and sometime the bear gets you !!!

He never felt a thing !

HWD

Good show guys!!!!

kudzu · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2006, 12:41:04 PM »

deerandduck, I have a stevens 200 25-06 and bought some 117 fed. hot-cores for sighting in. With a dime size group at 100yrds, I ordered two more boxes and will stay with them. Have not killed with yet, but from what I've heard they will do the job I need. Southern WT under 200yrds.
Any stands over 200 will require the use of my 270wsm.

nomosendero · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2006, 02:59:58 PM »

Quote from: dancoman on August 25, 2006, 12:41:04 PM

deerandduck, I have a stevens 200 25-06 and bought some 117 fed. hot-cores for sighting in. With a dime size group at 100yrds, I ordered two more boxes and will stay with them. Have not killed with yet, but from what I've heard they will do the job I need. Southern WT under 200yrds.
Any stands over 200 will require the use of my 270wsm.

\

Yea, I tell my Wife stuff like that too!

handyman06 · « **Reply #23 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:39:40 PM »

i have no experience with 117gr but have killed several southern missouri deer with 100gr. and 120gr., both have worked flawlessly. I only load 100gr. now but i dont think it matters much. most shots have been broadside through the heart, exit wounds contrary to what i had heard are not that large. the autopsies usually revealed little to no heart, and bone fragments inbedded on the inside of the exit shoulder. so far ive only had two that didnt drop immediately one was my fault, at only about 45yds hit a doe in the lungs (100 gr.) and she ran about 75 yds and dropped . another time shot a buck quartering away, 100gr. entered behind the last rib and would have exited the opposite front shoulder (it did not). the buck ran about 20 yard and collapsed. about 1/2 of the heart was destroyed. I use 54.3gr. of h4831sc and sierra 100gr. boattail softpoint. works great on coyotes too larger exit wounds though. hope that helps. oh almost forgot on heart shots it will destroy a good amount of the entrance shoulder ive learned to live with this, but i know some old timers that cannot tolerate that.

nomosendero · « **Reply #24 on:** August 28, 2006, 06:05:46 PM »

Handyman06, welcome to GBO!!!

jro45 · « **Reply #25 on:** September 06, 2006, 04:44:01 AM »

The 100gr and 117gr bullets group the best out of my 257WBY but they don't even come close to the 87gr bullet.

Coyote Hunter · « **Reply #26 on:** September 12, 2006, 04:23:35 AM »

deerandduck –

Given a choice between a 100g and 117g cup-and-core bullet, I’ll go for the 117g. But given my druthers I would choose neither – the .25-06 easily launches the 117g SST at velocities over 3000fps and 100g bullets over 3150fps. In either case I’m not comfortable with impact velocities closer than 125 yards (2700fps or so), and the problem is exacerbated at closer ranges with the lighter bullet.

While I don’t shoot a .25-06, I do shoot a .257 Roberts loaded to +P velocities that doesn’t give up much to the -06. My choice for hunting is a 120g A-Frame at around 2950fps and I don’t worry about bullet performance at any range. Second choice, FWIW, is a 115g TSX at a hair over 3000fps. The TSX load is deadly accurate – clay pigeons at 300 yards don’t stand a chance and at 200 yards they frequently get their centers shot out, leaving the outer ring intact.

At a minimum I would plan for the worst case and hope for the best. The worst case is you wound an animal, it turns and runs and you have to take it with a bad shot angle to the vitals. I want a bullet that will get there. If 300 yards is a long and rare shot, extreme accuracy is secondary and penetration is key. If a Texas Heart Shot is your only option, which would you rather have in the chamber – a cup-and-core bullet or something that will hold together better? Partitions are pretty cheap insurance and bonded-core bullets really aren’t that much more expensive – especially if you do your practice work with their cup-and-core brethren.

OK, I hunt elk and use the same loads on deer and antelope. I am an admitted premium bullet bigot. Having seen what high velocities (calculated 2825fps at impact) can do to a Hornady Interlock, I gave up on them in the early 80’s.

You asked for people’s opinions, that’s mine.

deerman12 · « **Reply #27 on:** September 15, 2006, 09:29:42 AM »

I have the same gun you have. I have ran alot of different loads through this one. It seems to like the lighter bullets. I called savage they said they use 90 grain Sierra for accuracy testing. Mine shoots both okay, but it does seem to really eat up the 87-100 grain. I have to say for the little money spent, this gun is something else when it comes to accuracy.

Lead Poison · « **Reply #28 on:** September 22, 2006, 11:43:20 AM »

I prefer to have an exit hole if at all possible, therefore, I feel more comfortable shooting 115-120 grain bullets. That said, I did kill two deer last year using Nosler 110 grain Accubonds. Both shots exited and left a fair blood trail. They were placed behind the shoulder of two 120 lb. Georgia Whitetail does.

115-120 grain bullets are is still my preferred weight for the 25-06 Rem, especially if you may encounter a close range shot.

Catfish · « **Reply #29 on:** September 28, 2006, 06:40:04 AM »

Can`t really tell you much. I loaned my .257 AI. ( varmint rifle for me) to a friend to hunt antilope. Sent 100 gn. Serrias with him. 1 shot at 425 yrds. and 1 kill. He said it went down like it was hit with a truck.