Author Topic: .41 vs .45 LC for WT deer (Read 3498 times)

meathead · « **on:** August 19, 2006, 06:31:56 AM »

Hi, I have been lurking on your site and absorbing all the great info but now I have a question. A local shop has two lightly used Smith and Wesson lite hunters, one is a .41 and one a .45 LC. Both have machined in weaver type bases and both have millet sights with hogue grips. Both are from the Performance Shop at S&W. The .41 has a Leupold 2x pistol scope.

My dilemma; which to buy for whitetail hunting. The .45 is 799.00 and the .41 is 899.00; is this too much to pay for this type of gun? Also which caliber is better for deer hunting? Since I do not reload is adequate high performance ammo available for hunting? It seems like most .45 LC I see is for CAS and the .41 is rare to see at all.

Any info would help me immensely.

Thanks, Meathead

WD45 · « **Reply #1 on:** August 19, 2006, 07:09:03 AM »

Both will kill deer no problem if loaded right.. If your not a reloader get the 45. If you are a reloader get whichever you like the best. I like em both.

Castaway · « **Reply #2 on:** August 19, 2006, 09:10:51 AM »

I differ in the previous advice. The Smith can take more pressure than original 45 Colt loads and I'd go with that. By handloading it you can safely get more "umph" over factory 45's. As an aside, if your interested in getting a handgun for hunting, I'd look at a Black Hawk. You can get more velocity from the Ruger than from a Smith if you reload 45's. Besides that, it's less expensive to boot. If you don't reload, I'd look at a Black hawk in 44 Mag. Ain't much of a difference in it and a hot loaded 45 and you can shoot facotry ammo.

Racer X · « **Reply #3 on:** August 19, 2006, 09:30:48 AM »

The S&W won't handle the hot (Ruger, T/C, Freedom Arms only) 45 Colt loads. A 41 kicks about as much as a 44 Mag with much less bullet selection (factory or handloads). Get a Ruger in 44 and if you handload, a 44 or 45 Colt.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #4 on:** August 19, 2006, 11:14:21 AM »

Since you do not hand load the 45 would be my choice just because there are more factory loads around . but be warned the S&W will NOT take the heavy duty rounds that a Ruger or TC will .

Out to 100 yards the 45 LC will kill deer as will the 41 , it is a matter of what ammo you have axcess to that will make the choice for you .

MS Hitman · « **Reply #5 on:** August 19, 2006, 11:52:17 AM »

The S&W should certainly be able to stand up to 255-260 SWC at 1000 fps. This is more than enough to kill whitetail deer.

spinafish · « **Reply #6 on:** August 20, 2006, 04:17:37 AM »

If you don't hand load go for the .41...the only high preformance 45 Colt loads out there are extremely expensive..think Buffalo Bore and Cor-bon...Almost all factory .41 mag ammo is just that ...magnum..the .41 Silvertip is not that hot..(made for home defensive). You can buy Gold-Dot, Hydra Shok. Cast Core..and many other .41 loads that will wax a whitetail with no problem..remember a .44 is not a .44 its a .429 and the .41 is a true .41 caliber..not that much difference in bullet diameter..I have loaded bullets as heavy as 270 grains for my .41 Contender..but their is much longer list of hunting loads available for the .41 than the .45 LC. I also have Bisley Blackhawk in .45 Colt, but the factory choices in ammo for hunting is limited!

meathead · « **Reply #7 on:** August 20, 2006, 07:55:40 AM »

I have no gone to the shop yet to purchase, Saturday was honey-do day.

Both guns are older 'N' frame S&W with the firing pin on the hammer. Do you think that this model would handle the performance ammo by Buffalo Bore or Grizzly Ammo? The specs are available here on the Midway USA site:

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Cat...ystring=653***691***

(1250 to 1350 FPS with 250 to 300 grain projectiles)

If S&W 629 (N frame) will handle full power .44 mag loads it stands to reason that it would handle hot .45 LC loads. Is my reasoning flawed? Am I missing something?

I have been handgun hunting for several years witha Ruger Bisley, Accusport special run, .44 mag, 5.5" barrel. I have taken a few deer and hogs with it. Now that I am getting older my close in vision is getting bad. I see great at distance but have trouble seeing the sights. That is why I want to go with a gun with scope/red dot mount capability.

BrianU · « **Reply #8 on:** August 20, 2006, 10:10:59 AM »

Are you talking about this ammo? http://www.cabelas.com/information/HuntingOptics/BuffaloBoreAmmunition0012669/BuffaloBorePistolAmmunition0012669215321a.html

Notice the firearms it is recommended for. I have a .41 Magnum and a .45 Colt, the .45 being my favorate. It is chambered in an Acusport like yours. The .45 is a real boomer out of a gun that lets you utilize its full potential. As much as I like Smiths, the N-frame really limits what the .45 Colt is truly capable of. While some people are content with this, given your choice of the two cartridges and the guns they are chambered in, you can either choose one that allows you to utilize the full capabilities of its cartridge or you can choose the one that comes with built in limitations. Like someone else already pointed out, practically any .41 Magnum ammo you find is going to be full power and suitable for deer hunting. While the .45 is fairly popular, most ammo you find on a shelf is more than likely going to be better suited for cowboy action type shooting than deer hunting. And one other thing to think about, I have read in more than a few places that the earlier N-frame .41 Magnums have tended to be considerably more durable than the .44 Magnums due to the slightly smaller bore and the resulting additional steel in the gun.

Brian

myronman3 · « **Reply #9 on:** August 20, 2006, 03:38:19 PM »

yes your reasoning is flawed. the smith 45's are meant for standard velocity loads, no more. even hot 44 mags are not for a smith. i think those 45 colt smiths are meant as target guns, no more. if you want a smith get either a 44 or a 41; and shoot only standard loads through them (no hotrodding). if you need more power, the 629 is not the platform to try to gain it from.

Gregory · « **Reply #10 on:** August 21, 2006, 01:34:25 PM »

The S&W in 41 Mag with standard factory loads by WW or Rem. would be plenty for any whitetail out to 100-125 yds. The 2X Leupold for an additional $100 is a good deal.

Bullseye · « **Reply #11 on:** August 21, 2006, 03:50:33 PM »

41 hands down in my opinion. I have owned both in Contenders and still own both in S&W. In my opinion the 41 is just much better suited for hunting. I have no doubt that the 45 is plenty for deer hunting using standard factory loads, but I also believe the 41 is still better. As the others have said, I would not hotrod very much with a 45 in a S&W, and besides if you did the recoil is quickly going to become as much if not more than the 41.

Bullseye · « **Reply #12 on:** August 21, 2006, 03:51:52 PM »

41 hands down in my opinion. I have owned both in Contenders and still own both in S&W. In my opinion the 41 is just much better suited for hunting. I have no doubt that the 45 is plenty for deer hunting using standard factory loads, but I also believe the 41 is still better. As the others have said, I would not hotrod very much with a 45 in a S&W, and besides if you did the recoil is quickly going to become as much if not more than the 41.

Bullseye · « **Reply #13 on:** August 21, 2006, 04:04:17 PM »

Ooops!!!!....Double post by accident....Sorry!

Racer X · « **Reply #14 on:** August 21, 2006, 04:07:12 PM »

A warning from Hamilton Bowen in "The Custom Revolver" regarding shooting hot 45 Colt (Ruger/TC only loads in a S&W Model 25 or other N frames:

"These guns can all fail with potentially catastrophic results when fired with ammunition designed for the six shot Rugers or similarly stout revolvers. Even if the guns do not disintegrate, their service life will be measured in dozens of rounds".

jakes10mm · « **Reply #15 on:** August 22, 2006, 03:11:10 PM »

OK....suggestion from a 45 Colt fan:

Get the S&W 45 and spend the $100 savings on an inexpensive single stage reloading set. Last I checked, the Lee Anniversary set was in the $70 range. Get the Lee Deluxe 4-die set in 45 Colt with the factory crimp die. The 45 Colt is a great cartridge to load. You can tailor your reloads to work well within S&W pressure limits, yet much more efficient than the factory SAA-pressure loads. I recommend looking at Penn Bullet's Thunderhead 270gr bullets for hunting. Carried them last year, didn't get off a shot, but will carry them again this year.

WARNING: Once you start reloading, you will never again be satisfied with the standard factory cartridges.

Lloyd Smale · « **Reply #16 on:** August 23, 2006, 01:07:06 AM »

jakes got a good idea here but ill modify it. Dont buy either. But yourself a good blackhawk in either caliber and spend the 400 bucks youll save buying a top shelf reloading set up. Theres just no way unless your a wealthy man that you can afford to buy enough factory ammo to really learn how to shoot a big bore. Hell i cant even afford to buy enough boughten bullets. For 400 bucks you could set yourself a decent reloading set up and enough bullets powder and primers for a good start at it. I dont even know what a box of factory .41s go for but i would have to guess 30 bucks. So if you plan to shoot 15 boxes in your lifetime you just recouped your investment and to get real good you better plan on those 15 boxes about once a month.

Quote from: jakes10mm on August 22, 2006, 03:11:10 PM

OK....suggestion from a 45 Colt fan:

Get the S&W 45 and spend the $100 savings on an inexpensive single stage reloading set. Last I checked, the Lee Anniversary set was in the $70 range. Get the Lee Deluxe 4-die set in 45 Colt with the factory crimp die. The 45 Colt is a great cartridge to load. You can tailor your reloads to work well within S&W pressure limits, yet much more efficient than the factory SAA-pressure loads. I recommend looking at Penn Bullet's Thunderhead 270gr bullets for hunting. Carried them last year, didn't get off a shot, but will carry them again this year.

WARNING: Once you start reloading, you will never again be satisfied with the standard factory cartridges.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2006, 09:13:39 AM »

John Linebaugh has done a lot of work with the .45 colt. I have included his site and article on the .45 Colt. Please read it and become more enlightened. The article contains more info on the subject of the power of the .45 Colt then anywhere else I have seen.

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Articles/THE45COLTDISSOLVINGTHEMYTH/tabid/201/Default.aspx

myronman3 · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2006, 12:22:15 PM »

the problem is not the cartridge, it is the platform. right in the link you posted, it specifies that these are only for ruger red/blackhawks.

sometimes i wonder if people even read the entire thread before they post. i will say it again for those that didnt catch it the first time around, the 629 is not the platform to wring all the 45 colt has to offer.

jakes10mm · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2006, 03:45:44 PM »

Lloyd.....You said what I was thinking about saying...regarding the Rugers. I had a Super Blackhawk Hunter in 45 Colt for last season, but ended up selling it and recently replaced it with a Colt Anaconda in 45 Colt. The Ruger Blackhawks are definitely the way to go for a 45Colt....while maintaining a sane budget. I have a 4-5/8" Blackhawk that has been "tweeked" for fun. It handles the heavy loads I created for the SBHH well....after making some better grips to keep ahold of the beast.

Myronman....you are absolutely correct in your assessment of the S&W frames tolerance to the beating of a heavy 45 Colt load. You must be careful with the pressure you're creating by handloading. I would argue with you that the posters here were payiong attention to the original intent of the thread creator. The "platform" is basically a wash, so the debate became the cartridge of choice....41 Magnum vs. 45 Colt. This is where it gets interesting....41mag is not the most plentiful cartridge on the hardware stores shelves. You are more likely to find 45 Colt, but it is liability constrained by the abundance of Colt-spec'd Single Action Army style revolvers that cannot hand a hotter hunting load. Several posters did warn against the S&W for hotter 45 Colt loads.

Overall, I would still recommend picking up a reloading set and start that new hobby. For firearms, I would also look towards a Ruger Blackhawk in either caliber. They are tough, durable, and affordable revolvers to beat around in the bush with.

Lawful Larry · « **Reply #20 on:** August 25, 2006, 02:50:46 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on August 24, 2006, 12:22:15 PM

i will say it again for those that didnt catch it the first time around, the 629 is not the platform to wring all the 45 colt has to offer.

Who the hell died and left you in charge? This isn't even your post pal! I don't give a dang what you think or what you want to say again! I was giving some info to Meathead that made the original post. Now why don't you go and sit in the corner, calm down and let the adults talk about guns.

Hey Meathead, sorry I had to get a little loud with this wire hyjacker. I posted that reference on the .45 Colt to give you some more info on the greater possibilities and capabilities of the cartridge. I shoot both the .44 and .45 and find them both more then capable in the field.

P.S.: I like that meathead handle. My father-in-law used to call me that years ago. I used to call him Archie Bunker.

EdK · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2006, 07:54:07 AM »

I think we have a comparison being made between apples and oranges here (with respect to the 45 colt side of the thread).

Q: Will a S&W 625 handle BB heavy 45 Colt ammo? A: No
Q: Will a S&W 625 in 45 Colt make an adequate deer hunting handgun? A: Yes, per MS Hitman's post.
Q: Is BB heavy 45 Colt ammo needed for deer hunting within iron sight/red dot range? A: Not really

Does that help?

myronman3 · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2006, 10:34:04 AM »

well lawful, you go right on ahead and shoot hot 45's through YOUR smith. with the link to that info on the 45 colt, it left the impression that those loads were o.k. for a 45 smith. get high and mighty all you want, but information that is posted here should be clear, precise, and above all; safe.
meathead specifically asked about hot loaded 45's through a smith; and some of you are leading him down the wrong path.
get angry all you want, call me all the names you like; but dont be giving out dangerous misinformation here.

MePlat · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2006, 11:29:01 AM »

On John Linebaugh's site he does mention the 45 Colt S&W. The revolver he says he carries daily. He said it will in his opinion handle loads that are 80 percent of the 44 Mag pressure wise. It is in the heavyweight bullets part one article. " The 25-5 in .45 Colt is safe to 80% of the 40,000 psi of the .44 Magnum Model 29. This allows a load of 32,000 psi in this frame." He also goes on to say that he loads his everyday carry loads to 5 percent under that to preclude extra wear on the gun. Even the 44 Mag will beat itself to death with 40,000 cup loads. That has been proven by the sillouette shooters. The ones with the performance ehancing package will last longer but not up to the Blackhawk 44 Mag.
The trouble with 45 Colt loads there is normal, hot, hotter, and hottest. a 25000 cup load is hot compared to a 14000 cup load
and a 32000 cup load is hot compared to a 25000 cup load and a 50000 cup load is hot compared to a 32000 cup load.
Hot can be anywhere from anything over 14000 cup on up to clyinder bulging loads. See Hot, Hotter and Hottest.
One must ask what does the writer mean by hot. That is the question to ask first before the muck hit the fan.

Old Griz · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2006, 07:49:23 PM »

Quote from: meathead on August 19, 2006, 06:31:56 AM

My dilemma; which to buy for whitetail hunting. The .45 is 799.00 and the .41 is 899.00; is this too much to pay for this type of gun? Also which caliber is better for deer hunting? Since I do not reload is adequate high performance ammo available for hunting? It seems like most .45 LC I see is for CAS and the .41 is rare to see at all.

OK, while the children argue among themselves, let's go back to the original question.

You do not reload, so the .45 is not your best buy. Most .45 Colt ammo on the shelves is mainly for Cowboy Action Shooting. High performance .45 ammo is highly priced as well. The .41 has a fair selection of factory ammo, a lot more than I have seen for the .45. Winchester has at least two. The 240-gr Platinum Tip HPs are the most accurate out of my gun, but then every gun shoots differently, so you'd have to buy a box of everything you can find to see what shoots the best in your gun. Both of these calibers are going to limit you, and are best used if you reload, however, you can make do with either. There is a lot more choices out there for the .44 mag than these two put together. I love my .41, but I could only have one, it would be the .44 simply for ammo selection.

The S&W is strong enough to handle any sane ammunition that you would want to use for whitetail deer. Sure, there are other revolvers out there stronger, but not everyone feels obligated to push a .45 to gun bustin levels. Either the .45 or the .41 is quite adequate. However, . . .

. . . the prices you mentioned. I'm sorry, but $800 & $900 seems awfully high, even with a scope. I could not recommend getting either one. For hunting, I like Ruger single actions, but I am not going to try to talk you out of a S&W -- I like those, too. And if you've got your heart set on a S&W, well by all means get one. Life is too short for a gun ya don't like! I'd just keep looking and see if you can find one somewhere else at a more affordable price.

Good luck. I hope that others who are "trying to help" will either stay focused, or start their own thread. (Oh darn, I bet I just made somebody mad . . . )

mikedb · « **Reply #25 on:** August 26, 2006, 04:41:46 AM »

Quote from: meathead on August 19, 2006, 06:31:56 AM

Hi, I have been lurking on your site and absorbing all the great info but now I have a question. A local shop has two lightly used Smith and Wesson lite hunters, one is a .41 and one a .45 LC. Both have machined in weaver type bases and both have millet sights with hogue grips. Both are from the Performance Shop at S&W. The .41 has a Leupold 2x pistol scope.

My dilemma; which to buy for whitetail hunting. The .45 is 799.00 and the .41 is 899.00; is this too much to pay for this type of gun? Also which caliber is better for deer hunting? Since I do not reload is adequate high performance ammo available for hunting? It seems like most .45 LC I see is for CAS and the .41 is rare to see at all.

Any info would help me immensely.

Thanks, Meathead

If you dont reload I would not get either one. Hot 45 ammo is expensive and sometimes not easy to get with short notice. 41 Mag is expensive and may be difficult to find on short notice. For non-reloaders go with a 44 mag. You could also consider the 357 Mag but it will limit your shots.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #26 on:** August 26, 2006, 07:15:30 AM »

Quote from: myronman3 on August 25, 2006, 10:34:04 AM

well lawful, you go right on ahead and shoot hot 45's through YOUR smith. with the link to that info on the 45 colt, it left the impression that those loads were o.k. for a 45 smith. get high and mighty all you want, but information that is posted here should be clear, precise, and above all; safe.
meathead specifically asked about hot loaded 45's through a smith; and some of you are leading him down the wrong path.
get angry all you want, call me all the names you like; but dont be giving out dangerous misinformation here.

Here is a quote from Cor-bon. http://www.dakotaammo.net/faq.htm

Q. Can I use the 45 COLT +P loads in my S&W model 25 Mountain Gun?
A. Yes, the 45 COLT +P loads can be used in the S&W model 25 and the other modern S&W guns. You need to be sure that your gun is in good condition and hasn't had too many years of hard use. The 335 gr. Hard Cast load is probably a good choice. It operates at a little less pressure, but still packs a real whoop. New guns come out every year and the 45 COLT is a popular cartridge. If the model gun is not offered in 44 Magnum, it doesn't have the metal to handle the 45 COLT +P. The new titanium and scandium guns are nice to pack, but these are intended for self defense -- not hunting. The 45 COLT +P loads are not suitable for these guns.

If it were me, I would look for a 44 Mag and be done with it. But if you are intent on your choices, go with the 45 L/C. JMHO. Another thing, if you really want to know the strength of the S&W, call them, I think they are better qualified to answer your question, after all they do build the guns.

MePlat · « **Reply #27 on:** August 26, 2006, 07:53:07 AM »

redhawk1: I think your advice is on the outside very sound but once it is put under the microscope it is kinda off when asking a firearms company what the strenght of their guns are.
To give an example I called S&W after I bough one of their 44 Mag guns after they did the endurance enhancment package on them and asked if they would take the pounding of 300 gr factory loads such as put out by Hornady etc.. The guys answer was all I can recommend is saami compliant loads. Do you know what that is? I do it is a 250 gr max bullet weight bullet at a maximum average pressure of 40,000CUP average pressure with a maximum allowable individual high of 43,500 CUP in the test string in a sammi spec pressure barrel that has been calibrated with saami compliant calibration loads.
Another example is the Encore singleshot pistol. I called T/C and asked them the ability of the Encore to handle the hotter 45/70 loads like Garrett and Buffalo Bore. His answer was all i can say is use Saami Compliant loads. You know what that is right? 28,000 cup or 28,000 psi. He would not commit to using loads over that. You do know they chamber for the 300 win Mag and the 500 S&W and the 454 Casull. You've got a 454 Casull right?
You still would listen to a factory tech that is going to play his cards close to his vest? They wouldn't tell you it was ok to use 32000 cup loads in a S&W even if they know its safe and they were doing it themselves.
Linebaugh probably know more about the 45 Colt than most anyone else today and I would chose to listen to him than some tech at some plant that is scared to death of lawsuits and etc. You can't blame them for being on the cautious side with the society we have today on lawsuits.

Redhawk1 · « **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2006, 01:19:07 PM »

Quote from: MePlat on August 26, 2006, 07:53:07 AM

redhawk1: I think your advice is on the outside very sound but once it is put under the microscope it is kinda off when asking a firearms company what the strenght of their guns are.
To give an example I called S&W after I bough one of their 44 Mag guns after they did the endurance enhancment package on them and asked if they would take the pounding of 300 gr factory loads such as put out by Hornady etc.. The guys answer was all I can recommend is saami compliant loads. Do you know what that is? I do it is a 250 gr max bullet weight bullet at a maximum average pressure of 40,000CUP average pressure with a maximum allowable individual high of 43,500 CUP in the test string in a sammi spec pressure barrel that has been calibrated with saami compliant calibration loads.
Another example is the Encore singleshot pistol. I called T/C and asked them the ability of the Encore to handle the hotter 45/70 loads like Garrett and Buffalo Bore. His answer was all i can say is use Saami Compliant loads. You know what that is right? 28,000 cup or 28,000 psi. He would not commit to using loads over that. You do know they chamber for the 300 win Mag and the 500 S&W and the 454 Casull. You've got a 454 Casull right?
You still would listen to a factory tech that is going to play his cards close to his vest? They wouldn't tell you it was ok to use 32000 cup loads in a S&W even if they know its safe and they were doing it themselves.
Linebaugh probably know more about the 45 Colt than most anyone else today and I would chose to listen to him than some tech at some plant that is scared to death of lawsuits and etc. You can't blame them for being on the cautious side with the society we have today on lawsuits.

You have a lot of good points..

SingleFan · « **Reply #29 on:** August 27, 2006, 01:33:24 AM »

Geez, what a war on words. I can provide some first hand experience for you on the S&W 45 LC and its capabilities. I've hunted with that gun for a few years. The Performance Center 45LC 629-5 is a strong gun. When I first bought the piece, I called SW tech support to inquire as to what level the gun could be loaded. The answer in a nutshell was "hot, but not super hot". I balanced that advice with an article by Linebaugh and decided to shoot rounds in the 1200fps range. I haven't tested it loaded real hot, but I've been shooting beartooth bullets 280gr WFNGC at 1250 fps for several years...and here's what I can tell you about that aspect of your question: 1. It's the kiss of death on whitetail out to easily 75 yards. The last one I shot was at about that distance and she fell like a stone. 2. I have both a .41 and a .45 - either will perform well on whitetail, so it's your choice. Both have limited factory offerings, but adequate - Winchester makes a hunting load for the 45 and the 41 (the latter is a Supreme 240 gr platinum tip, I believe the 45 loading is a 250 grainer.

The 45LC SW Performance Center gun I have outshot my FA 454. It's a one hole gun. Doesn't mean your will be, but I have (4) PC guns now and all have shot very well.