357 max vs herrett

[clodbuster]

I have a 357 Max 10".  I shoot 180 SSP bullets at 1675 fps over ww296.  How much velocity gain could be reasonable to expect with a Herrett in 10 and in 14" with a similar bullet?

[pastorp]

Clodbuster, I have never used either round, but I do have the contender loading mannual. When I get home this weekend I can post you some numbers from the TC mannual. Maybe someone else will chime in in the interm. Byron 

[Grumulkin]

My estimate would be no more than a 200 fps gain in velocity in a 10 inch barrel and probably more like a 100 fps gain.  For each additional inch in barrel length you may get as much as a 50 fps velocity gain.

I don't use H110 in my 357 Herrett since I've had good results with IMR 4227.

[EdK]

Hornady agrees with your 'max velocity by publishing 1700fps with a 180sssp in a 10" barrel (Win296).

In the Herret:
Hornady publishes 1900 fps with a 180sssp in a 12" barrel (Win296).
Sierra publishes 2000 fps with a 180fpj in a 14" barrel (Win296).
Accurate Arms publishes 2210fps with a 180sssp in a 14" barrel (AA1680).

[chazgin]

I wouldn't switch to a Herrett because the gain is not substantial and because the cases require a lot of work to make. I got a Wesson 357 SuperMag and soon disposed of my Herrett barrel. I liked it when I had it but the Max is just as good.

[pastorp]

clodbuster, the tc reloading manuel shows the 180ssp bullet with ww680 at 2000fps with a max load of 27.6gr. in a 12" barrel. they don't show 296 as a recomended poeder in the 357 herrett.

in the rem. max with the same bullet ww680 shows the best balistics in a 10"barrel. 1800fps with a max load of 23.8gr.

THESE ARE LISTED AS MAX< REDUCE 10% AND WORK UP!!! Hope this helps, Byron 

[EdK]

Is there any point in quoting the loads for WW680? I know there might be a few folks out there with a stash but isn't this stuff long gone?

[skb2706]

I would certainly go to the Accurate Arms website to confirm quantities but AA1680 = WW680.

[EdK]

Is AA1680 really the same as WW680? 

Why do so many lament the loss of WW680 and hoard the powder or pass info to others on where to find it as surplus?
Why is it listed in burn rate charts as sometimes faster, sometimes slower than AA1680 or even with other powders inserted in between?
Why do some data manuals publish significant differences between the two (velocity, pressure, max load weight) for the same firearm?

It would be nice to know they're the same but it doesn't look that way to me.

[PaulS]

I won't say that AA1680 is the same powder as WW680 but it is at least very close. I haven't talked to Accurate Arms and Winchester will not say anything one way or the other. I do know that I am testing AA1680 in my 357 Maximum TC with a 14" barrel and a Hornady 180 grain rifle bullet to see if I can get an accurate and consistant load that out performs my H110 load. So far i am not impressed but time will tell.

[EdK]

Well, I have absolutely no hard evidence one way or the other. Check this out from the Loadbooks 5th edition T/C manual (Jan 2000)

Hornady Bullets / 10" 357 max / 1-14"twist / 180gr bullet

Win 680: 23.8 gr. @ 1800fps
AA 1680: 25.3 gr. @ 1700 fps

Sierra Bullets / 14" 357 max / 1-14"twist / 180gr bullet

Win 680: 24.3 gr. @ 1850fps
AA 1680: 25.5 gr. @ 1750 fps

100fps more with Win 680 using 1.5(Hornady)/(Sierra)1.2 gr less powder. Pretty good data correlation between these two companies if you ask me.

[Cowboybart]

Try www.gibrass.com for 8lb kegs of ww680.    I have 16 lbs of it.

[EdK]

Hmmm... very interesting. I knew it was discontinued and that folks hoarded the stuff but did not know it was still available through surplus channels

Also interesting that Bartlett of gibrass.com says: "This is a ball powder, which can be loaded using AA1680 data."

So let me ask: Price + shipping + $20 Hazmat fee = similar $ per pound as I can buy AA1680 for locally. So why do you have 16 lbs or better yet why should I buy some? Believe me I'm not trying to be a wise guy - maybe thinking you'll tell me all about how much better than AA1680 it is.

[Cowboybart]

 I always buy in bulk to keep Lot #'s the same.   If you buy 4 kegs he pays the HAz-Mat (or did when I bought).  He also has WC860 or WC872 which works great for big belted mags and 50 BMG, plus it is cheap.

[pastorp]

EDK, no one is trying to get you to use ww680. I simply posted the loads that showed the fastest velocities in answer to the origional question. What velocity difference can I expect between the 357max and the herett.  Byron

[EdK]

Pastorp: from your comments of "no one is trying to get you to use" and the rolling eyes I see that you have interpreted my comments thus far as defensive or incredulous regarding WW680. On the contrary. If there is a "best" powder for the 357 max I'd like to know about it and frankly my curiosity has been cranked up for some time now because my loadbooks show best velocities with WW680 as well as some well-known gunwriters tout it highly in all supermag chamberings as well as lament its' demise.

The only thing I cannot understand at this point is why even bother with WW680 if it is the same as AA1680.

[pastorp]

EDK, guess you will half to choose your expert so to speak. Since ther seams to be differing opinions on weather they are the same or not.

 I bought a quanity of a really cheap powder a few years ago. AA2200 was the name. It came with sugested loads for some cartridges but not all I load for. In searching the AA load manual most charges are very close to AA2520. Not identical but very close. Is it the same powder? Don't know. But I have managed to work out some loads by doing extensive comparisons. Would I share loads that are not published in a load manual? No way. But they work for me.

Guess your in the same boat. Only you can decide what you are willing to shoot in your gun. Just remember powder can differ some from lot to lot even though it is marked with the same numbers. That is why some of us buy in larger quanties.

 Anytime you start a new lot of powder or work with a simular powder you must start low and work up all over again to be safe.  Regards, Byron, just my opinion.

[huntersmurf]

I don't have a Contender nor do I know if T/C chambers this but if your looking for more velocity how about the 35 Remington. I have a Lone Eagle with 14" bbl and I get an honest 2000 fps with 180 grain Hornady SSPB. And you don't have to mess with forming cases and factory ammo is easy to find.

[pastorp]

One of the benefits that you get with the 357max is the ability to shoot 357mag or even 38spl amo as reduced loads. Regards, Byron

[Gregory]

One of the benefits that you get with the 357max is the ability to shoot 357mag or even 38spl amo as reduced loads. Regards, Byron

Here's what Thompson Center says about shooting the shorter cartridges:

Dear Sir:
>
> The .357 Mag and .38 Special cartridges may be fired
> in the .357 Maximum
> chamber.  However, there is a chance that the
> chamber will be ringed at the
> case mouth position of the shorter cartridges when
> fired in the longer Max
> chamber.  The use of the longer Max cartridge may
> result in stiff extraction
> due to the brass flowing into the ring in the
> chamber.
>
> If an emergency arises and the shorter cartridges
> have to be used, then by
> all means do it.  Under normal situations use only
> the longer .357 Remington
> Maximum cartridge.
>
>
> Very Truly Yours,
> Tim Pancurak
> PO Box 5002
> Rochester, NH 03866-5002

[pastorp]

I wonder why we are hearing about the dangers of shooting shorter cases in longer chambers. Like 38 in 357 mag etc. I don't remember anybody saying much about that until just recently. I've fired thousands of 38spls in 357 mag revolvers and never noticed this. Are we using different powders? Lighter bullets? What do you guys think? Byron

Remember the heavy loads that Skeeter recomended in 38 spcl cases because the cast bullet he used was too long to fit the cylinder in a mag. case. He never mentioned any problems that I recall.

[PaulS]

There is little danger of a 38 spl round causing ringing of a chamber but I ruined my first 357 Maximum barrel by shooting full loads of H110 in 357 mags in it. The rig was so deep that the maximum cases would crack on the third firing. The 38 may not develope the pressure to damage the chamber but the 357 mag does.

[Swampman]

The .357 Bain&Davis is a great cartridge, and we hear little about it.  I took a deer and a hog with it.  The .35 Remington is excellent too.

[pastorp]

Paul, I've even seen some warnings about the 38spl in 357 mag chambers. Just curious why this is a problem now but must not a been one 20 years ago. Maybe H110 & WW296 were not available then. I've even seen warnings about 4227 and that has been around a long time.

I never cared for light for caliber bullets and most of the 38's I fired were light loads. Perhaphs that is why I experienced no problems. Byron

[Bullseye]

The reasoning I have always heard that a 357 Mag could ring a 357 Max chamber is because the Mag is also a high pressure round unlike shooting a low pressure round such as a 38sp in a 357 Mag.

I do not have a 357 Max barrel anymore, but I did at one time.  When I tried shooting 357 Mags in it I had a lot of copper shaving in the chamber and lead area of the gun.  After that one time I always stuck with Max's and I had not even heard about T/C's warning back then.

Don't know if any of the above can be proven true, it is just what I have heard over the years.  I will say I do not miss that 357 Max barrel, I would rather shoot a 375 Win than a 357 Max.  The max had more of a twisting effect on the grip than any gun I have ever shot and my wrist would ache for a couple days after shooting 30 or more rounds.

[PaulS]

pastorp,
I've been reloading for 35 years and 296 and H110 have been around the whole time. I was using H110 when I ringed my maximum barrel and that was more than twenty years ago. When I told people about it back then I was told that it was probably due to poor cleaning habits - sure. I knew what it was and I wrote a few letters to Thompson about it too. I guess enough people have done it that they decided it was worth mentioning.
Ringing chambers has been discussed for a long time in bottle-neck cases. Using wadding with light loads of fast burning powders cause more than a few barrels to be shortened or replaced. When the wad smashes into the back of the bullet it expands outward causing rings in the chamber - it was never expected that straight wall cases would cause this with out wads. Well, it has and it does and they are finally recognizing it - I say, "What took them so long?"

[pastorp]

Thanks Paul. I started reloading in the mid sixties but used bullseye and unique for a few years in the handguns I loaded for. It was when I bought my first FA 454 casule that I started using H110 & WW296. That was about 1990.  Byron

[Ruskin]

I have a max in 10" barrel.  I am using 35 cal 180 grain bullets with h110.  The report is substantal.  If I were to use it for hunting, I definitely would seek out a rest.  I was wondering about going with a 357  mag bullet weight of 125 or 158.  The trajectory will change substantially to a flatter shooting round.  Any thoughts or shooting a brick(35) v a mag bullet?

[Ruskin]

I went to the range and shot my max.  I am wondering about bullet weight v velocity.  If I drop my bullet weight my velocity will increase and recoil will decrease which would be more manageable.  I understand the 158 gr bullet is acceptable for deer would dropping from 185 gr be beneficial?

[PaulS]

My experience with the Maximum is that bullets under 158 don't shoot well. I never got a 125 grain bullet to group at all - more like buckshot patterns. The 140 grain bullets were almost as bad but they did groups with the right powder. They just never grouped MOA. The 158 grain bullets from Speer and Sierra shot well and gave me groups under an inch occasionally but the average groups were more like 1 1/4". The Speer 180 grain rifle bullet gave excellent accuracy and had almost the same muzzle velocity as the 158 grain bullets. It has a better BC and the heavier bullet seems to love the TC Contender regardless of the barrel length. It shoots to MOA consistantly and it still expands on game out to 120 yards. I am in the middle of testing the Hornady 180 grain rifle bullet and it has a small edge over the Speer bullet as far as bc and powder space. If you wanted to go slightly higher (I don't) than the maximum load listed for the Speer bullet it might be possible to get 2000 fps from  a 14 inch barrel.
In my testing I have not yet found the accuracy I expected - but as I said I am still in the middle of my tests.