20 Gauge Reloading Help

[Val]

I'm just starting to reload for 20 gauge. I have a new MEC 650N which is the progressive that doesn't have a crimp station. You crimp off line, I'm using a MEC super sizer. My problem is that I'm getting some horizontal crease lines on the hulls just above the level where the wad would sit in the hull. Some of them go so far as slight crushing of the hull. Abot 50% of the loads are showing this crease line/ crushing of the hull. The problem is more prevalent using the Claybuster WAA20 wads vs the Winchester WAA20 wads. The creasing/crushing is occuring in the crimp closing station. I've tried increasing the wad pressure and it has helped a bit. I have also increased the height of the crimp closing die so the crimp is pretty level with the top of the shell. It was pretty recessed before I did the height adjustment. I could use suggestions on how to solve this problem.
Thanks

[Bob_K]

First off, the 650 does crimp.  I believe you mean Size, and you are sizing in a separage tool.  You don't mention what specific Winchester hull or load you are using.  If it is the new HS variety of Winchester, it could be that your wad is hanging up on the base wad in the hull.  It could also be that you are trying to stuff too much into the hull, so letting us know what your load is would be helpful. It may just be an adjustment that is needed on the machine for your particular load.  You might try lowering the precrimp die a bit.  Also, call MEC tech support as they have a very good reputation on solving these kinds of problems with their presses.

You'll find, however, that it pays to standardize on a specific hull so you don't have to screw around with adjustments once you have it up and running.  I tend to use Remingtion STS hulls as well as their Gun Club and Game Load hulls.  My favorite loads is Remington 20ga hull, Orange Duster wad, 16.5 gr Unique, STS primer, 7/8 oz of shot.  For the AA (old style) hull, I use 15.5 gr Hodgdon Universal, Claybuster WAA20 clone wad, W209 primer.  If I'm loading one oz loads, I use Hodgdon Longshot and the SP20 wad.

[Val]

Bob,
You're correct, I did mean size. I am using the Winchester AA hulls with WAA20 Winchester and Claybuster wads (I have some of both). I'm using 14 grains of International Clays with the Winch. 209 primer. I'm loading 7/8 oz of lead #8 shot. These are the newer Winchester AA hulls.

I did send an e-mail to MEC and they suggested I play with the cam setting on the crimp closure station. I did and found a spot where I get just a slight crease on the hull and about 1/3 of them are unmarked. Going up or down on the cam adjustment worsens the problem. I had previosly increased the wad pressure to try and solve this problem and I also raised the height of the crimp closure die to reduce the amount of crimp recess. Any suggestions you may have will be appreciated. I did send another e-mail to MEC.
Thanks

[Bob_K]

I don't have any experience with International, so I don't know how bulky it it.  Your load is in the Hodgdon manual, so it should go together (but no guarantee).  Couple of thing to try.  One, lower your precrimp die some.  The case sounds like it is collapsing during the crimp, and lowering the precrimp will reduce the overall length.  Lowering the precrimp may also require an adjustment to the crimp die cam so that you don't over crimp and get a swirl.  The second thing, if the components are just too much for the case, is to reduce your shot charge.  I note the Hodgdon manual also list these components in a 3/4 oz load with a 13.0 gr charge.   Personally, I prefer Universal powder for my 20 ga AA loads.  I also use a Universal Charge Bar, so making adjustments to powder and shot are fairly easy, and don't require an assortment of charge bars reamed to drop a specific weight of a specific brand and size of shot.

[Catfish]

Val,
   I think Bob`s right when he says your tring to put to much in the cases. Try takeing out some shot befor you crimp and see how they close. I use an adjustable charge bar and find that most of the Book Loads work far better if I load just alittle less shot.

[Val]

Bob and Catfish, I think you guys are correct. The last e-mail I got from MEC said that some of the load recipes called out by the powder companies won't fit in the hull. I'll look and see if the Universal powder consumes less space than the International powder that I used. A guy I skeet shot today with says he uses all the same components I use but he uses 13.5 grains of 700X powder. I can't even find a 20 gauge recipe using 700X. He said his recipe is from an old Lyman book. Anyone know what muzzle velocity that 13.5 grains of 700X yields? Anyone know how to get a 7/8 oz shot bar to throw a little less? I may have to buy one of those universal adjustables.

I'll just keep plugging along until I find that load that loads well, consistantly. Thanks for your help and suggestions.

[Bob_K]

Putting some adhesive tape inside the shot cavity will reduce its volumne.  I've also heard of nail polish and epoxy used for the same purpose.

[.45 COLT]

IMR has 700-X loads in 20 Gauge for Federal hulls. A guess at velocity with 13.5 grains would be around 1150 FPS.

Those Universal Charge Bars are really nice. I've got one in each of my presses except for the latest Grabber I just bought. Gonna order one for that too.

DC

[Val]

Persevierance pays off. I finally got my 20 gauge reloads coming out good, now. I kept listening to your comments and the MEC comments and kept playing with the adjustments and finally it's working fine. Apparently this machine was way out of adjustment when it left the factory. My original load of 14 grains of International Clays with the WAA12 wads is now my target load. Thanks for your help.

[Bob_K]

Ok, Val.  How did you stuff a WAA12 wad in your 20 ga case?

[Val]

Would you believe WAA20 wads?

[orpco]

i have had the very same problem loading 20 ga WWAA hulls and claybuster wads trying to develop a 1 oz load. My lyman manual has very little data for 1 oz loads and this hull. i have picked up some WWAA20 wads to see if it works better. I would be interested in the stations that you adjusted  and also other 1 oz formulas. I am using the winchester wsf powder.

[Val]

Orpco,
I don't think the WAA20 wads can handle 1oz loads. It barely has enough room for the 7/8oz load I was struggling with. The Hodgdon website recipes call for the WAA20F1 wad for the 1 oz loads or the Rem SP20 wads.

[dakotashooter2]

I was just curious as to if you weighed your powder charge to verify it. I have found (and I know others have)that mec bushing charts do not always accuratly reflect the actual weight thrown.  That can also contribute to the problem.

[Val]

I always weigh my powder charge before finally settling on a MEC powder bushing. The MEC bushings tend to through lighter than the tables they publish show. I take an average of at least 10 powder drops and insure I'm getting what I want.

[orpco]

Orpco,
I don't think the WAA20 wads can handle 1oz loads. It barely has enough room for the 7/8oz load I was struggling with. The Hodgdon website recipes call for the WAA20F1 wad for the 1 oz loads or the Rem SP20 wads.
[Thanks i will check on that. I don't think my Lyman manual lists the F1]

[Val]

Orpco,
When you work out this 1 oz load, please tell me what the recipe is. I've been meaning to develop a 1oz 20 gauge load for dove and quail loads. I've been so busy quail hunting and attending my club trap and skeet shoots and visiting my grandkids and visiting my relatives in Las Vegas and salt water fishing; I haven't had time. I've had to use my 12 gauge on my quail hunts. Retirement is a tough life but someone has to do it.

[orpco]

I have been using the winchester wsf and claybuster wads, but about 1 out of every load creases the case. Thats why i was looking for a different wad. I might try the winchester wads tomorrow and see if it solves the problem