Author Topic: Rem. 700 (Read 4848 times)

jim · « **on:** November 20, 2002, 02:06:30 PM »

I have shot many of them and never had a problem .

Zachary · « **Reply #1 on:** November 20, 2002, 04:20:20 PM »

I own 8 Remington M700 rifles. I have NEVER had such a problem. In fact, I have NEVER had ANY problems with these rifles.

The oldest M700 I own is about 10 years old, and I have some newer ones that were manufactured just this year. Again, never any problems. I think (but I could be wrong) that this problem was related to the much older M700 rifles. As such, I don't think that anyone has had such a problem with the newer rifles.

As for the Browning A-Bolts, I own 2 of them (the Original A-Bolts, not the newer A-Bolt IIs). I have never had any problems with them either. On a side note, however, I have been told that the older and original A-Bolts are much better than the newer A-Bolt IIs.

Remington quality has, in my opinion, suffered in recent years. HOWEVER, this in no way has anything to do with the alleged problem of their rifles going off when they are not supposed to. I would recommend you buy a Remington m700 with no hesitation.

I must note, however, that I would recommend the Tikkas over the Remchesters.

Zachary

savageT · « **Reply #2 on:** November 21, 2002, 06:16:30 AM »

Terry1,

I have heard about the safety problem on Rem 700's on other forums and my advice is to contact Remington or a licenced gunsmith to inquire about recalls on your 700 action. I sure Remington will make it right, and has a network of local shops that can do the work. Good Luck and check it out!
savageT

Graybeard · « **Reply #3 on:** November 21, 2002, 06:18:32 PM »

Quit beating around the bushes. Speak up and tell us how you REALLY feel. Dang I hate it when a fellar jist meally mouths and don't speak his mind. :-D

Advocate: I've yet to see it proven that any unaltered Remington rifles have gone off on their own. They build a gun with the intended purpose of firing a projectile at high speed out the end of the barrel. High speed projectiles of all kind are known to be dangerous and even deadly if they hit you. So it is imcumbent on the user to know and understand the use of the rifle and to keep the muzzle pointed in a direction which will be SAFE even if it fires. To do otherwise is STUPID and dangerous to themselves and all around them. They NOT the manufacturer should be held accountable for their own stupidity. That is one of the main things wrong with this nation today. No one wants to take blame for what they do wrong. They want to blame it on society or the manufactuer or anyone but themselves.

Are you aware of the case in Kalifornia where a recent civil court found the killer of a school teacher ZERO % liable in the shooting and the distributor of the handgun which was legally sold but stolen to be 50% responsible? This was after a criminal court had convicted him of murder.

GB

KN · « **Reply #4 on:** November 21, 2002, 06:46:44 PM »

If you want to read about this pre 1982 problem, go to the Remington.com web site. There is an article about the problem there. KN

Zachary · « **Reply #5 on:** November 22, 2002, 04:31:04 AM »

As a lawyer practing international law, but yet also as a true and avid hunter and shooter, I must say that I do not agree with pointing the blame at gun manufacturers.

As GB said, I also have never heard of "unaltered" M700 triggers going off. Is this to say that all unaltered M700 triggers are perfect? Well, I don't know, but I have never had a problem with mine.

Also, for those M700 rifles (and other makes of rifles) of mine that were altered, were altered by competent gunsmiths. Trigger jobs cost me about $50 but are worth every penny. I keep on hearing that many people try to adjust their own triggers and they have no problem...and this may be true, but I would never take that risk. $50 is worth a great deal of piece of mind.

Why do lawyers sue gun makers? Well, I really don't think that they sincerely do it for the "public good." Such cases are usually on a contingency fee where the attorneys stand to receive up to 50% of the settlement or award (depending on the state). It's about money.

I also have a hard time believing that an attorney suing one of the gun makers is also a hunter or shooter. In good conscious, I do not believe that I could ever sue one of these gun companies.

On the other hand, I believe that we should also understand that Remington, Winchester, et. al. are also in business to make money. Is the M700 trigger the most reliable out their? Well, someone says that a Gentry is much more reliable. I don't know. Again, I never had any problems with my M700 triggers. The Winchester M70 has the 3 position safety. Is the Winchester better? Again, I don't know. Now, can the M700 safety be "Improved" upon? I would think that there is always room for improvement. Would it cost a great deal of money to Remington to make this improvement? I wouldn't think so, but then again, I don't know.

Yes, we should all be responsible and treat every gun as if it was loaded, but we should also have a reliable saftey on our guns. Again, I hate to say this over and over, but I have never had any problems, but we cannot ignore that other people have.

I have an idea. Someone noted that, in his research, it appeared that most incidents came from states that had extremely cold weather. Whether or not you live in a cold state, but especially if you DO live in a cold state, take your gun, UNLOADED, and turn the saftey on and off. Also, hold it upright about 6" off of the floor and drop it. Does the trigger go off? Do this in all types of weather and do it several times. If your gun goes off, yes, you should be responsible and not point it in an unsafe direction, but shouldn't you also take it to a competent gunsmith to take a look at it and get it fixed?

On a related note, I hear that Savage has come out with a special trigger that is fully and easily adjustable, like the Tikka.

Zachary
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jhm · « **Reply #6 on:** November 22, 2002, 05:21:05 AM »

If they are then I should have been dead a long time ago because at one time had every centerfire from the 17 rem. to the 300 win. mag, and still here oh I forgot I NEVER POINTED IT AT MYSELF and never had one go off like the suit claimed. Lucky I guess? JIM

Dand · « **Reply #7 on:** November 22, 2002, 09:20:36 AM »

I have had my Rem 700 since 1982. Tuned and electroless plated by H-S Precision. I've hunted with it from -20 to about +75 - never a problem with the safety. Of course I keep the action quite "dry" -very little oil to avoid cold weather problems and to avoid crud buildup. Sounds like poor maintenance and poor understanding of proper cold weather lubrication is a contributor to the problem. A long time ago I had misfires with a M 94 Winchester at -40 to -50. I was in highschool and thats when I learned about oiling in cold weather.

Old Syko · « **Reply #8 on:** November 22, 2002, 02:46:56 PM »

:roll: This is a subject that was discussed to death 30 years ago. I presently own 7 of these fine rifles, 20 or more years old. 2 of which have been rebarreled due to excessive use and the 22-250 is due again after another 5500 rnds. The only thing I have ever heard of causing an unintentional discharge is stupidity. Of the thousands of rounds I've fired personaly, everyone was intentional and in a safe direction.

As stated earlier, these systems aren't that complex. Accept responsibility for your own actions and you'll soon discover, even if there is a problem with a certain product, it doesn't have to be a problem for you.

TexasMac · « **Reply #9 on:** November 25, 2002, 05:41:33 PM »

Remington triggers are NOT dangerous if they are set by the factory and left unadjusted. This applies to rifles before or after 1982. But if an attempt at adjusting the trigger is preformed by a well-meaning shade tree gunsmith, or in some cases an experienced gunsmith, it can very well be left in a unsafe state and can fire if the safety is moved to an off position. I am speaking from personal experience and after lots of research on the subject.

The article on Remington's home page deals with loading and unloading with the safety on or off. It is not related to the "tricking" some of you have mentioned. The modification suggested by Remington simply allows one to unload the rifle while leaving the safety on. This modification has more meaning if you have a rifle without a magazine. For example a 3/82 or prior model 700ADL does not have a magazine and in order to unload it each shell has to be ejected one by one by cycling the action. To do this, due to the design, the safety must be off to unlock the bolt. I understand on 3/82 or prior rifles Remington used the safety to insure the bolt was fully locked and down when the rifle is fired.

Now let's discuss the so-called "tricking" issue. I have an earlier than 1982 model 700ADL and have done extensive research on the subject. I have not heard of a verified case where a rifle fired just by taking the safety off unless someone had adjusted the trigger after leaving the factory. The problem is that several articles have been published in reputable trade magazines and in some gunsmithing books on how one can adjust the Remington triggers. It requires breaking the factory seals on the adjustment screws and following a specific sequence of adjustments.

I read some of these articles and decided to adjust the trigger on my rifle for the 5 lb factory setting to around 3 lbs, which was suggested a being safe. I followed the instructions to a "T" and sure enough was able to get it to break cleanly at 3 lbs. I then cemented the adjustment screws in place. I shot it for some time, really enjoying the lighter trigger. A year later after returning to the deer lease cabin from a day of very cold still-hunting, I flipped off the safety, intending to unload the unused rounds. The rifle fired without touching the trigger. Fortunately it was pointed in a safe direction. I did manage to unload the rifle without further incident, and then tried the safety several times. About 50% of the time it would fire without touching the trigger. Obviously the adjustments I'd made moved the mechanism outside the range of reliable functioning, possibly the cold and/or a little bit of wear pushed it over the edge. I promptly readjusted the trigger to 5lbs. and have been unable to get it to malfunction again, no mater how cold it was or how much I banged the rifle around, or pulled the trigger prior to taking the safety off.

Conclusion: Don't play around with Remington factory triggers. And don't believe all the nonsense you are reading about unsafe Remington triggers. I learned a long time ago to never make an absolute statement about anything, but I'd place good money on a bet that most of the problems you are hearing about are the results of someone having adjusted the trigger to something other than the factory setting. If you must have a reduce trigger pull, go with a good after market trigger mfg.

Old Syko · « **Reply #10 on:** November 27, 2002, 02:35:05 PM »

Folks, hearsay and innuendo helps noone, yet that is what I see a lot of in this thread. Reread Blackwater's last post! He explained everything as it should be explained and God forbid we don't understand. Our rights depend on it! Remington, one of the top manufacturers of firearms in the world is being dumped on by it's own customers because of slanderous innuendo.

Product loyallty! B.S. I own products from darn near every manufacturer I can think of , so don't give me that. It's just that I know what works for me. If we don't get to a point where we accept responsibility for our own acctions; point the thing in a safe direction to release the so called safety, unload, or whatever, We're all going to loose.

Like I said reread Blackwatter's last post and pay attention this time.

I am CAL......... · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2002, 03:46:27 PM »

I have had some experience with the safety on the Model 600.This is the conclusion I drew.If the trigger had been adjusted too light,this is when the safety would not hold.When the model 600 is put on safety,it disengages the engagement in the trigger mechinesam.When the safety is returned to the fire position,the engagement slides off and you have a discharge. I have never seen a model 700 discharge this way.The model 600 was real good at doing this,only if it had been adjusted too light.To start with the triggers on a model 700 :roll: are adjustable to a certain extent only.They were never designed to be a 8 oz.trigger.The engagement is not designed to be that prosiest.Yes they can be adjusted to a crisp 2 1/2 lbs.to 3 lbs.by a competant Gunsmith.I would suggest all others leave wellenough alone.If it ain't broke,don't fix it! For what it's worth,I think Remington firearms are of fine quality and no better for the money.My 2 cents,I am CAl......

Frog123 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 02, 2002, 07:03:25 PM »

I do know out of all the Remingtons that I have owned the only problem child out of the bunch was the 700ml. I owned it for three years without a problem. I kept the gun cleaned and oiled. I was meticulous about it. Then one day while deer hunting I "thumbed" the safety while preparing for the shot on a young doe. The gun discharged, scaring the He** out of me. I first thought "perhaps I had my finger on the trigger at the same instance I removed the safety and I just accidentally "pulled" the trigger. I reloaded the gun and replaced the cap. As I closed the bolt, the gun discharged, the safety was in the "off" position this time with the muzzle pointed down and in front of me in a safe direction. This caught me by surprise but I was quick to figure out this was not my fault that there was truly a mechanical defect here. I contacted Remington Customer Service and spoke with their representative. I asked if there was a recall or safety warning issued for the above gun and was told "No" that there "was no know problems with that model firearm" I explained to her that this was an unaltered firearm that I have owned for the past three years and now it was creating an obvious safety hazard. I was instructed to take it to the nearest "Remington Authorized Service Center" for repairs. As soon as I took it out of the case the service tech said "Remington 700ml, betcha' the gun goes off when you push the safety off" I said "Yeah, How'd you know?" He said that this was not the first one that he'd seen with this problem, actually it was the seventh one in a little over 18 mos. I'm thinking "no problem" customer service rep says, but the service tech is seeing one about every ten weeks or so. They contact me three days later to let me know that the gun could not be repaired in house that it'd have to be sent back to the factory. Finally six months later, I get the call to come get the gun that the repairs had been made and that there was no charge. remington had paid shipping to and from. My biggest complaint was that the gun had not been cleaned at the factory. The woman i spoke with the first time instructed me not to clean the gun to "bring it in, as is, fired condition for inspection" You can only imagine what a muzzleloader looked like after being fired twice then not having been cleaned for six months. Last Remington Product :evil: , I'll keep my 870 and that's it!

Frog

Robert · « **Reply #13 on:** December 15, 2002, 07:58:57 PM »

.....it goes back a long time....way, way back. Enfeild P-17's do it. It will wake you up in the morning boy...that's for sure. Safety is everything, that is for sure. The MAIN problem was with firarms designed so you have to click the safety in the 'fire' position to unload the magazine. These are the ones that were recalled. Unfortunately....I dont think the recall goes all the way back to 1917 Remington Enfields. I will never put one of mine into the hands of anyone that isnt familiar with it, or that I havent 'THOUROUGHLY' preached to about always having the muzzle in a safe direction, especially when taking off a safety to unload or to get ready to take a shot. Furthermore....I see people walking around with a finger on the trigger...I'm going to my rig and drive as fast and far away as possible. There isnt anyone going to tell ME that IT DOSENT HAPPEN. I dont know whether it is because of a defect, or wear, but some firearms DO go off when you take off the safety. I wont say it is just Remingtons...but what I will say is... Know your firearm, treat it with respect and safety. They are designed to kill.

Wijbrandus · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2002, 04:28:56 AM »

Two weekends ago, I was working on sighting in my new scope for my M700 7mm. As I chambered the round, the rifle went off. My rifle is only three years old, by the way. :shock:

However, as I sat there wondering just what the hell happened, I realized I'd set my little finger on the trigger as I closed the bolt. I was talking with my wife about where the bullets were hitting (she was the spotter) and I honestly was just not paying attention. :oops:

This is why you follow proper safety at all times. So it becomes a habit. My round went downrange, instead of down the firing line, because I always follow proper safety when I'm holding a firearm. That's a habit I'm rather happy to have at the moment.

Anyone can have a bad moment where they just forget something "everyone knows".

Just something to keep in mind.

~Robert

Zachary · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2002, 04:43:04 AM »

How did you have your little finger on the trigger while you were working the bolt? That seems kinda strange. :?

Zachary

Wijbrandus · « **Reply #16 on:** December 16, 2002, 04:46:32 AM »

Like I said, I wasn't paying attention, and I was getting lazy after a long day at the range.

I'd started to use the triggerguard to push off of to lock the bolt in to place. Lazy. No excuse.

~Robert

Zachary · « **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2002, 04:53:36 AM »

What's scary isn't necessarily what happend, but that it could happen to any of us at any time. You're right, we should always be careful and never let our guard down. Mistakes happen when we least expect them. I'm just glad that nothing bad happened to you or anyone else. :wink:

Zachary

gunnut69 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 16, 2002, 09:56:14 AM »

The problem with the Remington trigger revolves around a part called the connector. These type triggers are called 'propped sear' triggers, in that the firing pin sear is held up by the trigger sear. In the Remington trigger there is a piece that connects the 2 sears, this is the so called connector. It is NOT under spring tension and there is the rub. If someone allows the mechanism to be gummed up by congealed lubricant it is possible for this 'connector' to fail to catch the firing pin sear when the safety is released and the rifle then fires. Remington has admitted that the rifles in question have this probelm BUT only if the trigger is mis-adjusted(set with insufficient sear engagement), is fouled with lube/dirt/etc, or if the 'connector' is damaged. The lawsuits center around the bolt lock which requires that the rifle be taken off safe to unload. The contention is that this causes a dangerous situation where a failing trigger can cause an accidental discharge. The bolt lock is easy to delete from the trigger and is a modification I always urge for any rifle that passes thru my hands. That said, it does not make the rifle appreciably safer, it simply delays the inevetable. If the trigger fails the rifle will eventually fire when the safety is flipped to off. Keep the trigger clean and always keep the muzzle pointed in a safe direction. As safe as is possible. The current lawsuit concerns a family hunt where the mother's rifle discharged when the safety was flipped off. The bullet penetrated a horse trailer and the abdomen of the women's son. The boy later bleed to death as they raced to an emergency room. The rifle failed. I don't know why but have heard that there was a distressing lack of maintenance and the trigger was full of gunk. While the rifle failed and fired when it was not supposed to, the boys death was the mothers fault. All things mechical fail, I've even seen the vaunted M70 3 position safety fail(1 from damage?/adjustment and once from the factory, if safety was in middle position and trigger was pulled then safety moved to fire, the rifle discharged). The individual responsible (bad word today I'm afraid) for the accident that caused that boys death is the person who pointed the rifle in an unsafe direction, period. Firearms are inherently dangerous, they're supposed to be. We use them to kill things! If all mechanisms fail eventually then it behooves us to handle any weapon (even the unloaded ones) as the dangerous mechanisms they are. Sorry for the length.. And God's peace and help for the family that lost their child, I'm sure the pain is unbearable....from the gunnut69

Dand · « **Reply #19 on:** December 16, 2002, 06:01:41 PM »

good cogent comments gunnut - thanks for taking the time. I think I'll pull off my stock and make sure my 700 trigger is degreased and clean.

gunnut69 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 16, 2002, 07:22:26 PM »

I usually lube triggers with either graphite or one of several dry film lubes. Just don't pour on the oil and keep that muzzle pointed in a safe direction, even if the guns empty!! And for goodness sake, clean that trigger once in a while!!! Good luck from the gunnut69

Robert · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2002, 02:20:42 PM »

Well said.

mart · « **Reply #22 on:** December 23, 2002, 02:49:30 PM »

I have had more Remingtons than I can remember, 700's, 600's, 721's, 722's, 788's and never had a failure. I worked at a sporting goods store when that TV story about the 700's came out. Just a week before I had sold a used 700V to a customer. This was a fine rifle with a sweet trigger tuned to 2 pounds and entirely safe. It was my job to test the used guns that came in for safety and function. When I tested this rifle I could not make it malfunction. The customer proceeded to shoot a hole through the firewall and radiator of his buddies pickup. His natural reaction should have been "oops, I screwed up". Instead he trundled down to the store and claimed he had one of the unsafe Remingtons and if we did not make it right he would sue and go to the media. I confered with the store owners and they opted to offer him his money back or have a gunsmith fix the rifle. The customer opted for the latter. I took it to a local gunsmith and told him to turn it up to 7 pounds and give it some creep if he could. He was not to happy about doing that kind of work, but I explained the situation and told him I was trying to appease an idiot. He did the work, the customer was happy with the heavy trigger pull and we didn't get sued. He never did explain though, why he was in the vehicle with a loaded rifle and the safety off. I know nearly all firearms accidents are the result of operator error.

Zachary · « **Reply #23 on:** December 25, 2002, 04:01:22 PM »

I'm sure glad that I'm an International Business Lawyer and NOT a products liability lawyer...I'm glad I'm not on Blackwater's black list.

I'm a nice lawyer. You don't hate me, do you BW?

Zachary :grin: