Author Topic: Dished wheels and axle angle  (Read 1716 times)

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Offline Double D

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Dished wheels and axle angle
« on: August 22, 2006, 07:12:31 AM »
George and I have been having an off line discussion on dished wheels and Cannon carriage axle angle.  Instead of hiding the discussion in off line emails and topic drifting other discussions  I thought I would start a new topic and let everyone in the foray.

George and I have found some very reliable information on the subject that is in direct contradition wth each other.

So...Dished wheels and why? Axles, angled and why?

Offline CU_Cannon

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 02:26:03 PM »
The dishing was for strength.  A dished wheel is much stronger for high speed turning.  Straight spoked wheels had a tendency of breaking when they cornered too fast.  As for the angled axle I would say this is also for strength.  The spokes would be the strongest in compression.  When you angle the axle the spokes of the dished wheels are straight up and down.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 04:56:07 PM »
 The camber in the axle is to keep the wagon ie carriage running true. Even todays trailers have this bend or angle, or they would fish-tail all over. The dish adds strength during turns and corrects the effects of the camber with-in one or two degrees.

Offline Double D

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 07:12:24 PM »
Can you provide a contemporary reference to support those therories?

Here is what Gibbons says:

Quote
The wheels are always made with a certain convexity called the dish. The obliquity of the
spokes gives elasticity to the wheel, and protects it from shocks which, were the spokes in
the same plane, would destroy it. The dish should increase as the ground to be passed over
becomes more broken.

The object of the dish is, for the purpose of making the body of the carriage wider; to
diminish the length of the axle -tree, thus increasing its strength; to t hrow the mud and water
outside the wheels; and to tend, from the effect produced by the decomposition of forces, to
keep the wheel close against the carriage, and prevent any tendency to run off the axle.

I can find no reference in Gibbons to any camber in the axle. Can anyone find another reference contemporary with the time?

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2006, 07:56:49 PM »
The following is quoted from Artillery Through the Ages:

Wheels were perhaps the greatest problem. As early as the 1500's carpenters and wheelwrights were debating whether dished wheels were best. "They say," reported [Luis] Collado [1592], "that the [dished] wheel will never twist when the artillery is on the march. Others say that a wheel with spokes angled beyond the cask cannot carry the weight of the piece without twisting the spoke, so the wheel does not last long. I am of the same opinion, for it is certain that a perpendicular wheel will suffer more weight than the other. The defect of twisting under the pieces when on the march will be remedied by making the cart a little wider than usual." However, advocates of the dished wheel finally won.

Although advocates of the perpendicular wheel also "won" as the dished wheels were mounted with the load bearing spokes vertical.


GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline A.Roads

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2006, 09:01:46 PM »
The angle formed by the axle, when combined with the dish of the wheel, was designed so that it brings the lowest spoke down to bear on the ground at almost exactly 90 degrees. The history, of this combination of angled axletree arms and dished wheels is unclear, Muller, who published in 1780, had been unable to source the origin as, by then, it was already long established custom. This system had many benefits with regards to strength, prevention of wear and tear, better access to the gun. It also provided safer passage for gunners travelling on the limber ammunition boxes, with the upper section of the wheel being further from harms way of an unwary limb. Sturt, in “The Wheelwrights Shop” - late 19th century - was in no doubt whatsoever about how much strength was given to the wheel by the dish, un-dished wheels  - or those with only a slight dish & not well made - were very prone to ending up well out of perpendicular - always ending op with the tyre towards the cart, like an umbrella blown inside out. This was from the lateral thrust constantly applied from the motion of a horse drawn vehicle. Of interest was that the axletree arms had to have, as well as a downwards inclination, a slight inclination, or turn forward, to the front.

From a small section of Holden’s War Dept Notes (1860s) on British field carriages:

“The Spokes  are of Oak,  and are dished,  or inclined out-wards to enable them to withstand the lateral thrust,  that they may be subjected to in passing over uneven ground, when one wheel is often much higher than the other,  in which case a pressure is exerted on the Nave of the lower wheel tending to force it outwards. The dish is usually about ¼ of an inch to 1 foot in length.”

“The Axletree where it passes through the bed is rectangular in section to enable it to get a good hold of the wood.  The projecting Arms are circular and tapering. The Arms are not in direct prolongation of the body of the axle-tree.  They form an angle with it, turning slightly downwards to give the wheels a turn, in order to compensate for the “dish”. The turn forward is called the “lead” of the arm, - the inclination downwards is called the “hollow” of the arm, and the two together are called “the Set” of the Arm. These arrangements, besides compensating for the dish of the wheels, cause the spokes to be less liable to be rubbed in going through deep ruts.  The upper parts of the wheels are also made to incline outwards.  If they inclined inwards, the axletree arms and boxes would wear away where they are nearest the carriage.  The greater distance between the wheels above, also leaves more room for the load, and gives greater facility of approach to the parts near the axle.”

Is there a specific carriage that you are after inclinations for? from what I have read it seems it was varied for wheel diameters etc.


Adrian.

Offline A.Roads

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2006, 09:31:20 PM »
I meant to add a pic to the above post. This is one room of several attached to workshops here that I get to dabble in on a regular basis at the moment - the sets of artillery harness for 4 horses etc, only arrived the other day - a day of pure bliss was spent assembling it. The harnessed gun is an original U.S. 12 pr field howr barrel on reporduced carriage & limber - we still have to make the tools etc. The closer gun is a British 6 pr field gun barrel (original) on a reproduced carriage & limber. Both barrels bronze. Two of about 35 carriages, of about 20 different types, that have been made for original barrels here for an artillery museum that is slowly coming together. I've wangled a short stint here & have to pinch myself every single day to ensure that I'm not dreaming it all! My apologies for perhaps diverging a bit from the topic, the axletree arms aren't well shown I know. Adrian.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/Aroads/Album%201/b95a5c49.jpg



Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 09:32:04 AM »
Thats a good post Adrian and just about covers it.I did a little research on this before making the wheels for my carriage and I was astonished at the sophistication of the design for dished wheels.They embody principles still used on modern motor car wheels.
 A couple of things that I cannot see mentioned here are :- By angling the wheels to place the spokes vertical the tyres would not run flat but on edge.This is overcome by angling the wheels forward  Not only does this give the wheels better tracking qualities but it also tends to make the wheels stay on the axle should the lynch pin be lost.The force vectors tend to make the wheel run uphill towards the inner end of the tapered stub axle.OF course that is in the direction of tow only.
 The geometry is beautiful  All  can be accomplished by making the angle of dish [4-6 degrees] the angle of taper on the stub axle and the angle of toe in the same.The stub axle is set so that the bottom line of the taper is parallel to the ground and the front line of the taper parralel to the vertical plane to its front.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 03:06:49 PM »
Adrain has an excellent post.  I would note that he is quoting material for British equipment.  In looking at American Civil War period equipment, none of the drawings show the spindle turned forward for "lead".  The bottom of the spindle is flat with the bottom of the axle.  The the drawings show a 3 degree dish when you work out all of the dimensions.  This dish can vary depending on the skill of the wheelwright.

Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2006, 12:33:45 AM »
I forgot to mention that I believe the better tracking qualities may be due to the following;-
    In theory a perfectly smooth and round disc running on a perfectly flat surface will only make contact with the surface on a line of infinitessimally small width across the tyre in line with its axis of rotation.If the disc is tilted to bring the lower spoke to the vertical the tyre tilts and the line becomes a point.ie there is virtually no tyre contact with the road.
    If the wheel has 'toe in'toovercome this and  make the tyre run flat   'then the track of the road under the wheel runs at an angle across the tyre the line becomes a flat of whatever width and there is more tyre contact with the road.
    As I said -a beautifully simple concept from which so many benifits flow.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2006, 05:14:53 PM »
 Yah ! yes ,, YAH Thats what I ment.!        Didn't I ???

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2006, 07:31:57 PM »
Sorry Tom.Did'nt mean to cut across your bows.It was indeed what you said .You were just a little more succinct than me.I tend to waffle on when I get excited about ingenuity.
 By the way all.I'm sorry about the double posts.I keep getting an error message and when I try again both post get up.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2006, 12:32:02 AM »
Freddo -

EXCELLENT descriptions!

I've always known about toe in etc. but you've (in one paragraph) described HOW it works!

THANKS!

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2006, 03:05:38 AM »
Thank you Cat whisperer.I was not sure that my description was understandable. It is so simple yet so complex that the understanding slips off the edge of my plate from time to time.
 I was not quite clear on one point.I think the part of the tyre in contact with the road is in fact a small section of the surface of a huge theoretical cone of the same angular configuration as the axle stub.It is fairly easy to visualise the inate stability of  two cones rolling They will always tend to track towards each other.

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2006, 03:11:35 AM »
 Or away from each other-a sort of dynamic equilibrium.

Offline Artilleryman

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2006, 07:06:38 AM »
So far everything that I have looked at connected with the American Civil War equipment does not show toe in.  If the British are using toe in why aren't the Americans?
Norm Gibson, 1st SC Vol., ACWSA

Offline guardsgunner

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2006, 08:28:21 AM »
It becomes toe in when the stock is lifted for travel.

Offline Articifer Tom

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2006, 01:54:06 PM »
 Hey ! Freddo no need to be sorry  . Was all ment in the most humorous way. This thread was one of best  I read in quite awhile .  I read it after a long day and my brain was on over load of tech. thinking. The posts where reading like programing instructions to a vcr.  ;D

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2006, 11:39:31 PM »
Know the feeling Tom.
 You got that right Guardsgunner

Offline gary michie

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #19 on: August 27, 2006, 05:08:03 PM »
 ;D HI:
 With out rereading two whole books (I do not  like to read long books) and ckecking the drawings I have of #1and #2 carriages the term toe in is not used, but the instructions that were first put to paper in the 1880's. talk of 'axle set' in stead. On my prints all axles are formed with a straight or flat bottom. Another words if you pulled a string from one end to the other on the bottom the string would touch everwhere along the total length. The top side , is a differant story. The inside of the hub dia. on my prints is 3" and the outside=2" makeing the axle tappered and slopeing down on the ends makeing the 'set'. The two books I like are Carriage and Wagon Axles, and wheelmaking, both compiled by the Carriage Museum of America.There is all so a wheelright book published in canada of which the wheelright that I recieved my training had a lot of in put in.
If you make axles with this formula install it properly in a carriage then lift the trail the 15 Deg.up to the limber pinnle hook the wheels are set with a 'toe in' in the direction to be towed.
Gary

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2006, 01:15:28 PM »
 
   I've been looking at this topic for a few days now and I have come to realize (at least to me personally) that the history of the wheel is a fascinating subject. I have two questions and one request to ask of Gary Michie. Gary, in your post you state, "The inside of the hub diam. on my prints is 3" and the outside = 2" making the axle tapered .....  ." Are you talking about the nave also called the hub, the wooden center of the wheel that the bottom of the spokes are mortised into? If this is the case, are you then stating that the metal insert ( you mentioned the 1880s, by this time the hole in the center of the hub would have had a full metal insert ) that would be on the inside face of the hub, the face of the hub that would be put over the axle tree first when attaching it, has an inside diameter of three inches and the metal insert at the outside face of the hub has an inside diameter of two inches?
   You state, "If you make axles with this formula install it properly in a carriage then lift the trail the 15 Deg. up to the limber pintle hook the wheels are set with a "toe in" in the direction to be towed.". You've evidently put this in your own words. You stated earlier in your post the term toe in was not used in the books you have. Would you please quote in full the sentence or sentences from the references you obtained this information from. It would be interesting to know what terms or phrases the authors used to describe "toe-in" ?
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline gary michie

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2006, 03:31:40 PM »
 ;D HI:
 I am so sorry I have a tendency to leave out half of what i'm trying to say.
1. I was talking about the axle area where the hub/nave/boxsing, is located.
2. I was useing my own words when I used 'toe in', for most of the forum is using it but the books just talk of the axle set, how to figure it, how to put it in the diferant axles types, and why it is used.
So as far as I see toe in is one of those new fangled things,that you find in those horseless carriages.
Gary

Offline Cannoneer

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2006, 01:27:11 AM »
   Gary, thanks for your response. I assumed you didn't mean hub in that sentence, I just wanted to make sure. We'd have a real disfunctional wheel on our hands if we made one with a 3" opening on the inside face of the hub and a 2" opening on the outside. As for the last sentence of your most recent post, now your aiming dead on target.
RIP John. While on vacation July 4th 2013 in northern Wisconsin, he was ATVing with family and pulled ahead of everyone and took off at break-neck speed without a helmet. He lost control.....hit a tree....and the tree won.  He died instantly.

The one thing that you can almost always rely on research leading to, is more research.

Offline freddo

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2006, 06:00:02 AM »
Boom J  I think we were all using the term 'toe in' because we all understand that term rather than the term 'lead' as mentioned in Adrians post.
 The metal insert was called the Box It went all the way through the hub.It was taper bored to fit the axle.
  When the trail is raised it rotates the axle and the relationship of the taper to the ground alters.'Toe in' or 'lead' is the result.Form a taper with your thumb and forefinger keeping your thumb parallel with the table. Next rotate your hand away from you 1/4 turn and you will see 'Toe in 'occur.

Offline The Shootist

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Re: Dished wheels and axle angle
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2006, 07:19:18 AM »
In the other discussion of this subject I attached a link to an exerpt from a 1906 blacksmithing book. In this book the toe-in of a wagon axle was refered to as "Gather".