Author Topic: .375 WHELEN or WHELEN IMP (Read 4900 times)

quickdtoo · « **Reply #1 on:** August 23, 2006, 12:53:56 PM »

The .300 Win mag was reported on the old H&R Talk forum, IIRC. It may have also been done on a pre '99 frame, but that's just a passing thought as to why it shot loose in only 10 shots.

The .375-06 is next on my Handi "I need" list!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #2 on:** August 23, 2006, 01:03:51 PM »

Tim.
What kind of case does the 375 JDJ use. That looks like a good case that holds just about the right amount of powder for this country.?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #3 on:** August 23, 2006, 01:15:02 PM »

Fred, the .375 JDJ is a necked down .444 Marlin case....

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p375jdj.html

http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/jan96big.html

.375-06

.375 Whelen

Fred M · « **Reply #4 on:** August 23, 2006, 04:20:35 PM »

Tim.
Wouldn't the 375 JDJ spruce up my 375 Win. 225gr Hornady at 2733 with Benchmark. What a bomb. A very simple conversion. Shoots a 225gr bullet at the same speed as a 30-06 with a 180gr. Got to be a kicker.

NFG · « **Reply #5 on:** August 23, 2006, 04:26:54 PM »

NFG · « **Reply #6 on:** August 23, 2006, 04:34:26 PM »

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** August 23, 2006, 05:56:48 PM »

Yes it would, but yer gonna hurt yourself Fred!!!

I thought you layed off those heavy kickers!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #8 on:** August 23, 2006, 07:24:40 PM »

Yes Tim, but I can always dream or shoot it off the lead sled. A conversion from the 375 Win to 375 JDJ would give a 30% case vol. increase. Would get rid of the old throat. No change or very little on the ejector/extractor. Lots of work to keep busy. No need to use the rifle with full power loads. Load it just with the same power as the 375 Win to get you back where you started. Does that sound ok?

Tim, there is a new kid on the Ruger#1 block he is called 9.3x74, now ain't that what I really need. A Handi would be a suitable candidate. That would stop the above project for a while.

You saw that gold plated RWS ammo? That would go nice with the rifle. Or just get the box of 30 ammo and forget about the rifle. I ask my wife to get me a box for CHRISTmas, she ask how much is was. I said if you have to ask how much, you can't affort it.

NFG.
The 356 Win case has only 14% increase in vol. That is not enough to whet my whistle. Besides it would not quite clean up the old chamber and throat. The change has to be worth while.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #9 on:** August 23, 2006, 07:28:38 PM »

Yup!!

Couger · « **Reply #10 on:** August 23, 2006, 07:53:36 PM »

If you want a .375 caliber cartridge based on the '06 case, why not consider the .375 Hawk? Its essentially the same thing as a ".375 Gibbs" if such a round exists, and should outperform the .375 Brown-Whelen!

Consider the .375 Hawk!!!!

The company that devised the .375 Hawk also has a similar cartridge in .416, and also in .338 and .358. They're out of Wyoming.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** August 23, 2006, 08:05:40 PM »

The hawk/skovill uses proprietary dies, brass, load data and rechambering which Zhat won't do on an H&R barrel, been there!

Tim

http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20_FAQs.htm

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** August 23, 2006, 08:11:54 PM »

Come to think of it, I've already got a .400 Whelen..... 300gr .40 cal bullets at 2400+ fps, it's called a .405 Winchester!!!

I think the .375-06 would fill the gap tween the .338-06 A-Square and the .405 very nicely!

Tim

NFG · « **Reply #13 on:** August 24, 2006, 07:13:12 AM »

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** August 24, 2006, 10:05:26 AM »

Quote from: NFG on August 24, 2006, 07:13:12 AM

Tim...Can you measure your 25-06 and 280 barrels at the muzzle and at the forend stud for me?

My second attempt, the first time, I got the SMF server page when I did a preview!

Here they are...

.25-06 - .680 and .948"

.280 - .670" and .940"

.25-06 (my .338-06 now) .675" and .945"

Tim

BloomGrad · « **Reply #15 on:** August 24, 2006, 10:22:20 AM »

Well, the Handi now comes in .35 Whelen.
I have a .35 whelen in a Rem 700.

If I were going to go with the .375 Whelen I would lean to the Improved. The .35 Whelen already has a sight shoulder and moving to the .375 that shoulder would just be REAL slight. I would do the Improved to help get more shoulder and less body taper.

There used to be a lot more wildcats than what we see on the easily available lists today. I remember (vaguely) an article that I found in college in the Micro-film library on the American Rifleman Magazine or Sports Afield on wilcats based on the .303 British for the plentiful conversions that were being done in Canada and ex-british colonies for the surplus Lee-Enfields. I can't be 100% as to which magazine as it was back in the early 1980's and colleges subscribed to those two magazines back then. Try to find NRA magazines today at a college library. They were necking both up, down and lessening body taper on that .303 Brit case. Not much is seen today about the 303 Brit conversions. .25, 6mm, .270, and 7mm on the .303 were all popular. The .303 Brit might be cheap start for getting brass and I think it would hold up to the pressure that a Handi would be able to hold. How about a .375-.303 British head spaced on the rim anyone? I know it sounds weird but thats wildcatting for you.

There were lots of other wildacts based on the .348 Win. (ie ALASKAN wildcats), .444 Rem and some low pressure stuff on the 45-70 case. I think something that is simply a .444 or 45-70 or .450 Marlin run into a resize die would be the easiest.

Wolf Publishing has a book called 'Wildcat Cartridges' and I might be usefull in getting ideas

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** August 24, 2006, 10:43:58 AM »

Dave, let's try to keep the topic on Handis, what can be done with a bolt rifle has no relevance here.

Thanks,

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #17 on:** August 24, 2006, 11:08:55 AM »

NFG.
The Hawk calibers are all based on the 06 or 280. The only way to get more juice out of them is load them to 65-70ksi. The Gibbs on a 280 case holds about as much powder that can be put into a 06 type case.

The 338 Parr will get 2675 with a 250gr bullet on a 280 imped case with a shorter neck than the Gibbs. That is right up there with 338 Win Mag.

As you know there is no free lunch, you either use more powder or beef up the pressure. You can easy duplicate a 257Wby with a 25-06 Imp. if you run the pressure up to at least 65K. In a good bolt gun that is not all the bad.

I known on guy that routinly loaded a 270 Win to nearly equal the 270Wby but in the process stretched the action.

Now you can go the way of Ken Howell use large case with MG powder and get higher velocities ala 220 Howell which runs at about 48kpsi and beats the 220 Swift by quite a margin.

BloomGrad · « **Reply #18 on:** August 24, 2006, 05:58:13 PM »

Tim-

Sorry for any misunderstanding but to allay any possible misinterpretations...

I first mentioned my Rem 700 to show I've had reloading experience with the .35 Whelen. I felt the reader should know a little about my background so my opinion on the .375 Whelen could be appreciated. Nothing more.

I did have in the third paragraph: "The .303 Brit might be cheap start for getting brass and I think it would hold up to the pressure that a Handi would be able to hold."

The topic of Handi's is what I was talking about in my suggestions. I hope you will give me latitude to expand my thoughts. A single shot, such as the Handi, is more reliably chambered if the cartridge has a rim. The rim creates a more positive area for the extracter to grab onto. The many black powder rounds in the older single shots like the Sharps all had rims. It is the modern updating of the Handi's extractor design that allows rimmless cartridges but a rimmed case would allow even more area for an even easier extraction. Head spacing can also be acheived from the rim. What I was trying to do was give a back history on cartridges that are based on parent cases with a rim. Such as .303 British. Other notable Rimmed cases would include .30-40 KRAG, .444 REM, .348 WIN, 45-70, .307 WIN of the more poplular available types. Also to keep the noted wildcats within the realm of some SAFETY in a rebarreled or rechambered Handi.

Many old wildcats have gone by the wayside and that is a loss for all shooting fans.

I think you will agree the Handi is, and can be, a fine hunting and shooting tool. Loads with large pressure requirements are not chambered by the manufacturer. Thus, cartridges with the same or less than original cartridge pressures should be our guideline. My posted info on the .303 Brit wildcats DID originate in the bolt Lee-Enfeild but it's loaded pressures are within the Handi's design. A Pressure comparison( in Copper Units of Pressure) would be .303 Brit w/150GR jacketed bullet using 45,000 CUP to get 2769 fps and the .30-06 w/150gr jacketed using 49,000 CUP to get 2850 fps. (Lee Modern Reloading manual). The .303 Brit runs a lower pressure.(creating slower speeds) If the .30-06 can get into a Handi, Why not a .303 Brit.? The answer is nobody cares for the .303 as it ain't cool.

I'm not saying the .303 Brit is great or better... just possible as a parent case for wildcatting in the Handi.

You are probably correct in the fact that I can get long winded thus causing confusion.

I welcome your thoughts. Sometimes what I believe I'm typing never gets clearly worded from my brain to my fingers.

Thanks, DAVE

quickdtoo · « **Reply #19 on:** August 24, 2006, 06:52:10 PM »

Dave,

Not a problem, I see your point now, but there are some issues maybe you aren’t aware of.

Since current production NEF/H&R rifles no longer use weak ejectors, but now come with mechanical extractors, stuck cases are pretty much a moot point to a certain degree with factory ammo. An extractor barrel has enough leverage to tear the rim off a case, but that’s not likely since most stuck brass doesn’t take much force to remove it.

Rimmed cartridges aren’t immune to sticking in an H&R, I’ve proven that with my .405 Winchester with 2400+fps 300gr loads, when pressures of hot handloads test the design and function to the limits, they’re gonna stick, not due to being rimmed or rimless, but due to flex in the action. It’s kind of a self limiting feature, if you will, when the point at which brass starts sticking in a clean chamber, the load has exceded the frame's capabilities to stay tight at the standing breech and flex in the frame allows for a stuck case to happen.

Once a chamber has been polished, the only time I have stuck brass is shooting with a dirty, oily chamber or with brass that’s not clean, or when loads are too hot.

For weak ejector problems, there are easy fixes that won’t make them fool proof, but much better, that info can be found in the FAQ and Help sticky.

And FWIW, The .303 Brit has been the subject of many threads since the 7.62x39 Handi was offered since it has a .311” bore. but no one that I can recollect has done a rechamber.

Carry on!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #20 on:** August 24, 2006, 07:00:43 PM »

Dave.
There is nothing wrong with the 303, it has been by passed by the more modern calibers. Notice that the 303Epps will shoot the same as the 30-06 in a P14. The 6mm Musgrave is a true 303 sibling in Africa and is factory made with ballistics near the 243. Great Spring Bok rifle, I used one when I was there.

Many 303 wild cats are still used in Canada, Africa and Australia. Because the three countries were full of milsurp rifles and the 303 MKI Enfiled action is not too bad, but not as strong a Mauser. I had several 303 rifles at one time.

In Canada you will be hard pressed to find a 303 reamer and the barrel is an odd size .312. The 303 wildcats in 22, 243, 33 and 35 were done after the last WWII because there was a need for it.

The 303 case would work well in a Handi only you would not be able to find much good brass. The Milsurp brass is not very usable with the Berdan primers. The brass also lacks dimensional consistentcy and will come appart quite easy.

So why would you bother when you can get good brass for any application you desire. Besides wildcatting is not much in vogue anymore, because the factories have covered most any needs.

The 30-06 wildcats are still very popular for obvious reasons. The 06 brass is made by the top ammo mrs here and in Europe, cant get any better. The Handy or the other single shot rifles extract or eject a rimless case very reliably. So a rim is not needed. I would not advise to do any wildcat on a 303 case anymore.

BloomGrad · « **Reply #21 on:** August 25, 2006, 05:12:12 AM »

Yes guys I'm in full agreement with all of your points. 'Like minds' you know.

The Handi's can be pretty cool once you start really looking at them closely with the reading glasses on.

I did have an 06 Handi for a very very short time before I had to sell it (after less than two boxes fired in it). Financial reasons. Wanted to go on a second Alabama whitetail hunt in one year.

I only brought up the rimmed cases in the posts because there was not much discussion on anything with a rim for the original poster's ease of making the round other than the 375 JDJ (Which is great round as it is). I don't think I would use the .303 as a basis for my own wildcat but that doesn't mean others won't want to. I have a .35 whelen and I've got that 'bigger on the -06' stuff under the belt. I only get three reloads (If I'm lucky) with virgin brass before cracking in the neck occurs in my .35 Whelen. This is the main reason that I recommended the .375 Whelen IMP in my first post.

Rims may not be needed but I can get pretty traditional. Either that or have read too many old hunting books with horror stories. But in the same token I don't want to be labeled as a rimmed only fan. Far from it. Sometimes I get bored looking at rimless -06 based stuff. Variety in life. A pretty redhead in a sea of brunettes you know?

I like to throw food to the forum bears every now and then. Keeps discussions interesting. It's like sitting in huntin' camp around the fire.

Fred-
I yield to you on any Canadian and first hand African points of discussion as I see you are from Alberta and I've yet to afford the African trip. I have purchased a few buckets here in the states of different milspec rounds for my .303 but have not run into any Berdan primed cases. THANKS for the tip as I'll watch out for them as that would be a quick way to kill a reloading die.
I too have read that the Brit round can be a bit inconsistent in the milspec as you say but I don't feel thats the whole story as the chamber helps being to blame. My tests with quality new Win or Federal brass shows they too will soon separate just in front of the web due to the original battle designed excess chamber lengths. A new quality barrel and chambering job (possibly to head space on the neck rather than the rim) on a Handi would prolong brass life. But all brass wears out.

Sorry if I left the topic for a moment there but I just wanted to say thanks Guys for giving me a quick feedback on the feedback.

Anything further would be beating a dead horse.

I'll keep watch how these Handi posts and projects turn out. I hope to post with you two again sometime.

Stay safe and carry a compass.

Fred M · « **Reply #22 on:** August 25, 2006, 08:13:16 AM »

Dave.
If you are not busy you might want read my article on the 303 on my web site.

http://www.angelfire.com/ma/ZERMEL/303brit.html

NFG · « **Reply #23 on:** August 25, 2006, 03:41:49 PM »

Robert · « **Reply #24 on:** August 25, 2006, 04:57:24 PM »

Ok....I think that pic of the 375 Whelen is greatly exagerated on the shoulder. The 35 has about that much shoulder, or the 358 JDJ which is based on the larger 444Marlin case. I think that if you looked at a real 375 Whelen you would see about 1/2 of that dimension in the shoulder, I don't know where that 'generic' pic came from, but I would definately go Ackley for better headspace. Another point is this..... Ask G.B for his opinion about 375 JDJ vs 358 JDJ. I think this would also apply to the 35/375 Whelen and you will get a lot better bullet perfomance and trajectory with .358 in either of these chamberings.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #25 on:** August 25, 2006, 05:09:29 PM »

There's no drawing of a .375 Whelen, just the .375-06 from Reloadbench.

Here's the .375-06 from Steve's Pages...

I couldn't find a .375 Whelen drawing, here's an Improved...

And the .375 Hawk/Scovill...

And a .375 Express.

NFG · « **Reply #26 on:** August 25, 2006, 06:55:15 PM »

Mac11700 · « **Reply #27 on:** August 25, 2006, 08:40:27 PM »

NFG....Let me see if I am reading this correctly....your saying you are going to rechamber/rebore a Handi to give 375 H&H velocities and performance correct?.....This aught to be interesting for sure...I wish you luck...and look forward to seeing how it turns out...Me...if I were to attemp this...I would loose the belt...and just go for the flanged version..but that is just me...Holding a fine double in this is a treat...Having one in a Handi...well...that would be swell if possible..

Mac

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** August 26, 2006, 08:18:47 AM »

NFG, I think you've made some miscalculations in the .375H&H pressures, the SAAMI MAP is 62kpsi which is roughly 52kcup using Hodgdon data. The .450 Marlin SAAMI MAP must be right at 43kpsi, it's not list in SAAMI specs that I have, but the highest pressures listed in the 2006 Hodgdon Annual is 42.6kpsi. The pressure and a case head of .513" makes the .375H&H too much for a Handi frame in my opinion unless you intend on using squib loads in the .375!!

Tim

http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellk.htm#pressure

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

quickdtoo · « **Reply #29 on:** August 26, 2006, 08:31:44 AM »

I gotta share something I found while looking for info on the .375 Express last night. 4D reamer rentals has the .375 Hawk/Skovill reamers!!

http://www.4-dproducts.com/display.php?group=Rifle+Calibers&PHPSESSID=ec5fe37d0c923517bc96278e76e92e4d

That just leaves the loading data, brass and die sets($174

) which would be sourced from Z-Hat, although Midway does special order the brass.

http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20Brass.htm

http://www.z-hat.com/CD%20Manual.htm

http://www.z-hat.com/Reloading%20Dies.htm