Author Topic: .375 WHELEN or WHELEN IMP (Read 4816 times)

Mac11700 · « **Reply #30 on:** August 26, 2006, 09:01:39 AM »

Looking at all these big bores cartridges are fun..but..I would hate to ruin a frame..or have a cartridge let go in my face

If....and I do mean if...I truely wanted something in a large bore..but different than what the 45-70 can give me...I would try a 40 cal wildcat based off the 45 basic brass...Something a little longer than the 45-90...but shorter than the 45-120...and taperd down for the bullet.It would be a little longer than the 405 Winchesters brass...but should give a little more umph to it..provided you don't start sticking cases at the 405 Winchester max loads levels.....sort of what Fred Huntington did with his .458 RCBS...which in it's own right isn't a bad cartridge for the 45 cals...

Mac

handirifle · « **Reply #31 on:** August 26, 2006, 09:53:12 AM »

How long is the Whelen barrel on the Handi?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #32 on:** August 26, 2006, 09:54:41 AM »

Currently it's a standard 22" barrel.

Tim

myarmor · « **Reply #33 on:** August 26, 2006, 10:03:51 AM »

Call me crazy, but if a Handi frame can't handle a 300 WinMag, then there's no way in He!! I would try one in a 375 H&H!!!

This is one if I just HAD to have one, would opt for a good strong bolt action. Handis are pretty strong, but not as strong a good Bolt Action, like a 700,, Model 70, or Ruger.
I love them, but they weren't designed for such a cartridge.
Please talk to a good Gunsmith before you endevour in this project.
-Aaron

quickdtoo · « **Reply #34 on:** August 26, 2006, 10:51:10 AM »

The .375H&H and the .300 Win Mag have some common specs to include pressures, both close with the win mag a little higher at 54kcup. I have a suspicion that the .300 Win Mag Handi that shot loose in 10 shots, most likely was a pre '99 model that had the weaker frame. Current frames may not shoot loose as quickly, but stuck brass at a minimum would be likely from the get go even with start loads due to frame flex, then eventually the weak barrel pivot of the underlug would allow for a loose action due to the unsupported area. In any event, neither is a doable cartridge on an unmodified Handi frame and underlug.

Tim

NFG · « **Reply #35 on:** August 26, 2006, 03:35:11 PM »

quickdtoo · « **Reply #36 on:** August 26, 2006, 03:53:59 PM »

Quote from: NFG on August 26, 2006, 03:35:11 PM

Hey, Ho...I made a bet with myself to see if the data would be mis-interpreted.......it was.

The 45-70 Hornady 300 gr load I worked up for my NEF BC is rated at 51k CUP by "Load Disk", I won't hazard a guess on the Kpsi and I haven't seen any evidence of pressure problems with the load and that case has a 0.608" case head...

Ummm, the case head on the .45-70 is .505", the rim diameter is .608".

Quote

Besides, the feeling of that almost 4" case in your hand and the clunk it makes when it slides home is enough to make a guy...

If you want the big case for shock and awe, the .45-120 is plently safe in the Handi and is just a hair under 4" in length and won't break the bank or the Handi!!!

Tim

Fred M · « **Reply #37 on:** August 26, 2006, 04:50:35 PM »

NFG
If a rifle is chambered for a 375 H&H it should then be able to handle factory ammo other than that it would be a liability.

In this the Handi would not stand up very long when subjected to to 62kpsi. Yes it could be loaded with 78.0gr H4350 to about 52K in this case it would be ok with a filling ratio of 97.8%. In a 26" barrel and the 270gr TSX the velocity would be 2647 ft.

The 375 H&H can't be compared to the 300 Win Mag the two cartridges and loadings have totally different expansion ratios. The 300 Win Mag could be expanded too 375 or a 357 Norma Mag expanded. This would be better since no factory ammo is available for these two wildcats. Forcing the shooter to load sensibly if it was a Handi.

When I talked about the 375 JDJ conversion from 375 Win for my rifle which is not a Handi but Ruger #3 which can easy be loaded to 62K+ if you so desire, even though this cartridge is rated only for 51.5K.

I think a 375H&H in a Handi is not a good idea in serveral ways.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #38 on:** August 26, 2006, 05:39:56 PM »

Quote

It is particularly significant that even though the .500 S&W Magnum cartridge tops out at more than a ton and a quarter of muzzle energy, all the loads operate under 50,000 psi, which, incidentally, is significantly less than the 60,000 psi SAAMI-limit MAP for the smaller caliber .454 Casull.

From Hodgdons 2006 Annual Manual..for the 450 Marlin...pg.#110

COL 2.510"
Nosler 300 grain Partition
H4198 Start..43.0 grains 2116fps..33,900 psi...Max ..53.0 grains 2331fps 42,200 psi

Sure your loading longer...so that would offset the pressure somewhat..but..how much I am very unsure of...So I'm glad you would approach the max loadings cautiously...H4198 will quickly raise pressure expotintially with small incriments...I've found this out with my 45-70 Marlins..and Handi...so please be cautious...

All of the loading data has been lower than 50k for the round I've looked at...even Cor-Bon themselves reduced the pressures on it...and Hornady never did come out with their high pressure offering that I've seen from the introduction...So...extrapolating bolt thrust amongst the various cartridges...while fun to some of us ( We all can dream)...trying to make it a reality is another matter...The Handi frame is not a Ruger or Browning frame...and making some of these cartridges would most likely end at best in frustration..a stretched frame..or worse..an injury..

Quote

The 45-70 Hornady 300 gr load I worked up for my NEF BC is rated at 51k CUP by "Load Disk", I won't hazard a guess on the Kpsi and I haven't seen any evidence of pressure problems with the load and that case has a 0.608" case head,

...Since we are talking about big bores...Hodgdon list it's Max Ruger load at 63 grains of H4198 at 2532 fps and 50,000 cup...and this is using the Sierra 300 grain hollowpoint...which has the shortest bearing surface and the thinnest jacket of any of the 45-70 300 gr. jacketed bullets...This loading isn't for...nor never designed for the Buff Classic...or any Handi rifle....Straight walled cases don't show pressure signs as readily as bottle neck cartridges...this is a well known fact...and while you haven't been visited by Mr. D Murphey while shooting them...I would be real hesitant to say you won't be at 1 time or another...before too much longer...

My 45-70 loads are considered hot by some folks standards...Using the 300 grain Nosler Partition and H4198 they are well in the 40,000 cup range...but these are very mild... compared to what you say you are loading and shooting out of that Buff Classic without any incident...While your "given loads" and results are most impressive to say the least...they certainly aren't within the specs of the rifle's tolerances...and cannot be considered "safe" to publish...without some type of stearn warnings attatched to them...so please...bear that in mind for future reference

If the Handi's receiver was forged from a single billet of high grade steel...I wouldn't worry so much...but...it isn't...and hence the reason for my concern for the safety of me...and everyone else attempting to duplicate your "feats"...and also in lusting after one of those awsome .375's and wanting to convert one...I forget this sad fact from time to time when I start wondering "what if"...but....then reality sets in...and I know it won't happen..

You can place your trust in Load from a disc if you so desire...I prefere a much more reliable approach...one most folks here can duplicate for free....I much rather talk with all my friends at the powder companies...bullet companies...and even rifle companies...and get precise,detailed, accurate information straight from them,the ones who do this day in and out for a living......These folks I trust and have great respect for...all else remains questionable data...wither coming from an individual who elects to post it...or..from a computer program dealing in "approximations".I don't have a problem using a computer program to get in the ball park...we do have to have a starting point...and if it is available..then by all means use what you got...BUT...I will not qoute from it as a definative absolute source...because it is not...It is after all an approximation of what could be...not a definate what it really is...The best rule to follow in this regard is to check all current manufactures published data first....Then go from there...

If I had the time and money and a disposable reciever...I would certainly try for one of the 375's discussed(non-belted ofcourse)...just to see for myself...but....I don't..and truthfully we really shouldn't be recommending that others try it...not without atleast giving them fair warnings of the dangers they can and most likely will encounter if they elect to undertake a simalar project..Speaking with persons familiar with the Handi's strenghts and also it's weakness who have done actual big bore conversions is still the best bet..Most good smiths I know personally won't recommend doing this type of a conversion...and fewer yet will actually do it for you....They know the limatations of the action very well from previous conversions..and are very hesitant to get into a liability issue down the road with their work...

Mac

NFG · « **Reply #39 on:** August 27, 2006, 10:07:59 AM »

Fred M · « **Reply #40 on:** August 27, 2006, 06:59:02 PM »

NFG.
The 375 Whelen is by far the best and the most economical bet for a Handi. A long barrel is not really needed either since 6 different suitable powders propelling the 270gr TSX at 2425ft + will burn from 98-100% in a 24" barrel at 55Kpsi. This would be my Handi choice.

So a 24" rebored Handi bull barrel would be a good choice to provide the extra weight. For the extra pain with the 375Whelen AI the 308 Win 24" bull barrel would do fine.

I had a demonstraton of the Load from Disk downloaded to compare it with my "Quick Load" program. The QL provides quite a bit more info, such as graphs of all sorts, and powder parameters which can be manipulated to suit different variation in powder lots. It also uses interior ballistics and transfers this data to Quick Target for a "if what" bullet trajectories, drop tables, wind, point blank range, etc.

Also it is quite complicated, some users might find it too complex. Of course being made by a German Scientist it is not surprising that it is complex

It can be toggled to metric
and of course German. It is also available in French for the eastern Canadians and others.

Mac11700 · « **Reply #41 on:** August 27, 2006, 07:47:59 PM »

Quote

All things considered, maybe the 375-06 would be the best way to go in the Handi, quick and easy, no sweat, no hassle.

I thought that too for a very long time...but ultimatly decieded to go with the 338-06 A-Square..It has more advantages for me..and since this was my first 338 caliber..I thought it would do nicely to get my feet wet with one...Also.... since I wasn't planning to go on safari...it would work extreamly well for anything that lives on this continent...

The Handi is a nice platform to work with...and Fred does make a good point of rechambering one of the 24" bull barrel 223 or 243's but I still would opt for the 26" tube...unless I choose to do what Fred did and have it milled as an octagon barrel...or rechamber to an Improved version.It will give more steel to work with on the rechambering/reboring...I like the looks more and much prefere the way the 26" barrels balance off hand over the 24" bull barrels..

Have a Great 1

Mac

NFG · « **Reply #42 on:** August 28, 2006, 08:47:10 AM »

NFG · « **Reply #43 on:** August 28, 2006, 11:33:06 AM »

Fred M · « **Reply #44 on:** August 28, 2006, 11:58:36 AM »

NFG.
Converting PSI to CUP is not very sensible since linear equations do not work. To get a close proximity you need to calculate a regression plot, a real pain and not worth it. I don't deal with CUP. If you use a european regression formula you don't get the same answers. Quote by Hodgedons: At very best the conversion is a guess, at worst dangerous, dont do it.

One thing I did not like about the Load from Disk, they never anwered my questions I had, poor way to do a selling job.

If you have any trouble with QL. Ed Dillon in CA will answer all your question or you can get to Hans Broemel the designer in Germany, no sweat.

Your data
375 H&H, 3.88" oal, 85 gr h20, 73 gr Varget, 270 gr TSX bullet.2700 f/s at 50kpsi 0.350" Seating depth asumed. 26" barrel.

Ql. data.
375H&H,
3.88 oal,
270gr Barnes TSX bullet
Seating depth 0.347"
Usable case vol. 85.597H2o,
73.0gr Varget,
92% filling ratio.
2772 MV,
Pmax 63649 psi,
initial start pressure 6525psi( QL asigns an extra 3000psi for solid copper bullets. The TSX would be a bit less because of the three grooves. Say- 1500?)
26" barrel

450 Marlin.
Bullet 300gr Bar X #45802
Seating depth 0.293
OAL 2.800
Barrel 26"
48.6 gr of H 4227
Fillig ratio 94.9%
Pmax 50006psi
Initial psi 6525psi
SAAMI Pmax 43500psi

Note: the above data is not a handloading recommendation, but a mathematical prediction. As such do not use it unless you work up to it with a chronograph to correlate velocities and pressures.This data maybe dangereous in certain firearms.

NFG · « **Reply #45 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:34:12 PM »

nomosendero · « **Reply #46 on:** August 28, 2006, 05:59:20 PM »

Wise move!!

Fred M · « **Reply #47 on:** August 28, 2006, 07:14:04 PM »

NFG

Quote

Or, even better, anyone out there with the CNC metalworking tools and skills to produce a lug and then weld it to a barrel could start a nice side line business producing custom barrels for NEF's.

You be on the bread line in short order looking for a handout. T/C Encore is in the right direction for "han 375 Hetch hand Hetch" compra mo ami.

NFG · « **Reply #48 on:** August 29, 2006, 04:07:05 PM »

myarmor · « **Reply #49 on:** August 30, 2006, 02:50:35 AM »

Quote from: nomosendero on August 28, 2006, 05:59:20 PM

Wise move!!

I agree. The TC in a little better suited for such. Good luck with your project. I hope you get what you are looking for...and enjoy that beast

We would all love to see more calibers offered from NEF/H&R. The 35Whelen is a very welcome addition. Though the 7.62x39 seems to be not off to such a good start. It still gives hope as to what they may be willing to do in the future. And more longer tubes would be a great addition, like what TC is offering with the TC Prohunter in the 28" goodness as you stated.
Seems Marlin needs to just open their eyes and see how many people out there are into these "Humble" rifles and give them the funding. I feel if they actually did back them better, the potiential is definately there.

NFG · « **Reply #50 on:** August 30, 2006, 07:41:00 AM »

DELETED

hex · « **Reply #51 on:** October 03, 2012, 08:10:36 AM »

Did anyone ever get a chance to create one of these?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #52 on:** October 04, 2012, 04:41:05 AM »

I considered it, ended up going with a 376 Steyr.

Tim

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,257271.msg1099518082.html#msg1099518082

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #53 on:** October 13, 2012, 12:59:27 PM »

with good 303brit brass available up here, the concern about basing cartridges on it is moot

LAB55 · « **Reply #54 on:** October 16, 2012, 02:58:55 AM »

I sent my 223 24" bull barrel to JES Reboring and he sent it back as a 375 Whelen Improved. 1 in 13" twist. 3 grove bore. Haven't sent any 300 grain bullets thru it but have shot 225,235 and 270 grain. The odd thing to me is at 150 yards they all hit the same spot. Great cartridge! Never fireformed cases before this. Something new.

hex · « **Reply #55 on:** November 19, 2012, 10:30:23 AM »

Quote from: LAB55 on October 16, 2012, 02:58:55 AM

I sent my 223 24" bull barrel to JES Reboring and he sent it back as a 375 Whelen Improved. 1 in 13" twist. 3 grove bore. Haven't sent any 300 grain bullets thru it but have shot 225,235 and 270 grain. The odd thing to me is at 150 yards they all hit the same spot. Great cartridge! Never fireformed cases before this. Something new.

What do you have it zeroed to?

I've been pondering sending my 35 Whelen in for a 375 Whelen Improved makeover. Was the price reasonable for the work?

Brian P. · « **Reply #56 on:** November 19, 2012, 11:06:23 AM »

I guess the 3 groove will have less throat erosion. Is that true? Is the 5 groove better for shooting cast?

*Does JES prices include rechambering as well?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #57 on:** November 19, 2012, 12:03:14 PM »

Quote from: Brian P. on November 19, 2012, 11:06:23 AM

*Does JES prices include rechambering as well?

Yes, if he has the reamer, add ~~$35~~ $60 if he has to rent it.

Tim

Brian P. · « **Reply #58 on:** November 19, 2012, 01:11:08 PM »

Geesh, this just opens up whole new worlds, doesn't it . . . hmmmm

nanuk-O-dah-Nort · « **Reply #59 on:** November 19, 2012, 02:28:47 PM »

when thinking about cartridges and pressures, one has to remember that ALL the firearms manufacturers are now controlled by Lawyers who are mitigating lawsuits

one only has to look at the factory loads of the 45/70, in relation to the strength of the trapdoor Springer.

the TD springer is far stronger than most think, in fact it is stronger than other more common actions that most would expect to be stronger...

so say that we should "TRUST" the manufacturers because "They Know Best" is simply to be bamboozled into the LegalThink that is pervading the industry.

one only needs to look at the OLD guns that chambered the rounds when the FIRST came out, and research a bit on how many blew up..... and look at some of the breakaction rifles that handled them just fine

Read up on Seyfreid and black powder rifle strengths, as well as early smokeless guns.

this is not to say you can go crazy, but by my calculations, the 500S&W has a greater breech pressure than the .375H&H, and the Handi is rated to handle 500S&W factory round just fine!

And steel hasn't gotten weaker with the passage of time.

and one more thing... the 500S&W is chambered in a Revolver.... measure the steel at its weakest point and then measure a Handi.... which do you think has more steel around it?

Just sayin'