.454 or .480, that is the Question?

[Lawful Larry]

I had this over on the Double Action wire and thought I would put it here where more people come and hang out.

I will be looking to get weak in the knees and make another aquisition.  The only problem is what caliber, the .454 Cas or the .480 Ruger.  I will be looking to get a ruger Super Redhawk this time.  It will be used for hunting.  I currently have a couple of S&W .44 Mags and a couple of Ruger Blackhawks in .45 Colt.  I love them both, but you guys know how it is when you get bit with the "I need a another gun!" bug. 

Which one will give me the most overall power and service in a hunting venue?  Don't ever think I will hunt anything on the dark continent, so that narrows it down some. 

I value eveyone's opinion in this matter so fire away with your imputs.

[Graybeard]

I had both in the Taurus Raging Bull. The .454 is gone, the .480 is still here. That should tell you how I vote. I think too many people misunderstand what revolvers are all about in regard to hunting. If you need more power you need more bullet weight and diameter not more speed. I use nothing less than 400 grains in mine and mostly shoot 420s and 430s. You're hard pressed to use a 370 in the .454, most use 300s or less.

[Redhawk1]

I had both in the Taurus Raging Bull. The .454 is gone, the .480 is still here. That should tell you how I vote. I think too many people misunderstand what revolvers are all about in regard to hunting. If you need more power you need more bullet weight and diameter not more speed. I use nothing less than 400 grains in mine and mostly shoot 420s and 430s. You're hard pressed to use a 370 in the .454, most use 300s or less.

That is why the 460 Mag is such a great platform, 300 to 395 gr. bullets are not a problem.
Lawful Larry, have you considered the 460 Mag?

[poncaguy]

I have a 460 , like it because I can shoot 454 Casulls and 45 Long Colts too. Mine is a Encore 15" pistol. So , if you go with the 454, you can use 45colts also..

[Hairtrigger]

I have owned Super Redhawks in each 454 and 480. Both are more gun than I need for Ohio deer
I sold the 480 because :

for reloading I had more choices in the 454
the 454 will also shoot 45C ammo which I and most of my friends shoot way more accurately than with 454 rounds
Other mfg's seem to avoid the Ruger round so I wonder about the longevity of the 480
bullets for reloading the 480 cost more
I needed cash for another purchase and did not shoot the 480 much

Having said that, If you go with the 480 I have new dies and some once fired brass   

[Lawful Larry]

I had both in the Taurus Raging Bull. The .454 is gone, the .480 is still here. That should tell you how I vote. I think too many people misunderstand what revolvers are all about in regard to hunting. If you need more power you need more bullet weight and diameter not more speed. I use nothing less than 400 grains in mine and mostly shoot 420s and 430s. You're hard pressed to use a 370 in the .454, most use 300s or less.

That is why the 460 Mag is such a great platform, 300 to 395 gr. bullets are not a problem.
Lawful Larry, have you considered the 460 Mag?

I was thinking that the .460 would be too much gun for what I needed.  The idea of shooting the .454 & .45 is an attractive idea.  Now you have really made this a more difficult decision to make.  The more I have to think in retriement, the more my head hurts.   

I will put this thought on my list.  If I go this route I will go with the TC barrel.  Has anyone had any problems with this barrel in the .460?  Can you shoot all three calibers in this barrel with good accuracy?  New questions makes this a more complicated choice.   

[Lloyd Smale]

personaly i think the 480 is one of the most underated cartriges on the market why  you ask. Just read greaybeards post!!!

[Dusty Miller]

Its well established that there's nuth'n on the N. American continent that the 454 cannot kill and do it rather well.  If you want to kill'm deader then use a more powerful gun!  My infatuation with the 454 stems from the accuracy I'm getting from my 7 1/2" FA model 83 and from the versitility of my 6" FA model 83 equipped with a 45 Colt cylinder (when I'm in the mood to shoot something that begins to look like a sane person's activity!!).  On top of that, the selection of .45 caliber bullets is just amaze'n.  Sooner or later it comes down to a very subjective decision and I'd not question you if it turned out to be a .50 caliber gun you wanted.

[DPHunter]

I decided to buy the .480 over the .454.  My .480 is a Taurus Raging Bull.  I had originally wanted the Ruger SRH, but when I looked at it compared to the Raging Bull, I really liked the Raging Bull better.  My buddy has a Raging Bull .454 which is quite brutal on the wrist.  It's not too much gun to handle, but not a gun to go plinking with.  When I got word the .480 hit the market, I wanted it just to say I had the biggest gun.  It was mainly a conversation piece.  I just ordered a box of 410gr. Buffalo Bore bullets for mine the other day to hog hunt with, but haven't gotten the opportunity to shoot them yet.  Anyway, sorry to ramble on, but the answer is the .480.  That would be my choice.

[poncaguy]

My 15" Encore 460 S&W shoots the 454 Casull and 45 Colt to the same point of aim at 50 yards........3/4" groups, shoots 1/2 groups with the 460, but 8" lower at 50 yards than the 454 and 45's......

[Zeus]

I love my FA 454.  The accuracy is amazing and the power is plenty.  I've had the 480 in the Ruger SRH and liked it but it was not one of my favorites so it had to go.  Obviously, this is why they make so many different calibers, everyone has a favorite.  As far as the Casull goes, I'm not a big fan of shooting 45 Colt through it.  I prefer to just load down the Casull.  255 grain bullets in the 1150 fps range are VERY pleasant to shoot, cut a ragged hole at 50 yards and in all honesty, are plenty for a whitetail deer.  I don't like shooting the shorter casing(45 Colt) in the 454 due to dirtying up the cylinder and taking the chance of "ringing" the cylinder the next time the full house 454s are shot and the cylinder is not perfectly cleaned out.  Just easier to load down that worry with the troubles of the other for me.  Anyway, my vote is for the 454 but the 480 is definetely a great caliber, with the right loads, it is very pleasant to shoot and very accurate.  A big heavy slug at moderate velocities can do some pretty cool things so I don't think you'll make a bad choice with either one.  Good luck with it. GS

[Gungrubber]

I would have to say 480 over the 454  I have shot both hunting and on the target range. Reasons?
#1 the 480 to me gives better controlability less a wrenching snap and more a heavy shove.
#2 more diameter and bullet weight avaliable and this equals knockdown clean kill and meat on the table.
#3 performance on game. I like the way it hit's boom ..drop.. get out the skinning knife.
#4 using a 400gr hard cast makes it the ultimate brush gun with a bullet that size expansion is not a issue.

GG 

[Redhawk1]

I would have to say 480 over the 454  I have shot both hunting and on the target range. Reasons?
#1 the 480 to me gives better controlability less a wrenching snap and more a heavy shove.
#2 more diameter and bullet weight avaliable and this equals knockdown clean kill and meat on the table.
#3 performance on game. I like the way it hit's boom ..drop.. get out the skinning knife.
#4 using a 400gr hard cast makes it the ultimate brush gun with a bullet that size expansion is not a issue.

GG 

#1 Either one has significant recoil.
#2 Either gun with give you knockdown power and a clean kill, not just the 480
#3 Hard to beat the performance of the 454 Casull, with the proper shot, either will give you the boom drop.
#4 The 454 Casull will and can use 395 gr. cast bullets and do the same as the 400 gr. from the 480.

The 480 is a between cartridge, it is more powerful than the 44 Mag and less powerful than the 454 Casull.

[Graybeard]

The 480 is a between cartridge, it is more powerful than the 44 Mag and less powerful than the 454 Casull.

I knew our string of agreements had run too long and had to end, here we're gonna hafta disagree.

It's all a matter of how one defines "power" or "powerful". In straight wall handgun cartridges it's NOT about velocity or imaginary ft. lbs. of paper energy. It's all about bullet diameter and bullet weight with meplat size tossed in for good measure. Those, not velocity or energy firgures are the true determiners of power in a straight wall handgun cartridge. In those areas the .480 wins hands down. Yeah I know, ya don't agree. 

[DPHunter]

Graybeard has a good point. I have often thought the same thing myself.

[ANACONDA45]

Never had a 454 or a 480 Ruger, but had a Freedom arms 475. I shoot alot of 44s mostly 250 keith bullets in it, and 45s with 255s to 360s but those 425 WFN out of the 475 even loaded real light were impressive on game, paper, mud, and trees. I would have to side with the 480 despite what the ballistic charts say on energy figures, bullet size is more impressive to me even at lower speeds

[nomosendero]

For the cast bullet shooter, I don't see how the 454 could come out on top. And on alot of big animals, this is what I want to use. For Deer & smaller animals, my 44 with the 240XTP seems to do the trick, I don't need a 454 for that. And if over a 100 yards, I prefer my Contender.
I found a RB 454 with a 5" barrel at a good buy last week. If it was a 480, I would have allready bought it.

[Redhawk1]

The 480 is a between cartridge, it is more powerful than the 44 Mag and less powerful than the 454 Casull.

I knew our string of agreements had run too long and had to end, here we're gonna hafta disagree.

It's all a matter of how one defines "power" or "powerful". In straight wall handgun cartridges it's NOT about velocity or imaginary ft. lbs. of paper energy. It's all about bullet diameter and bullet weight with meplat size tossed in for good measure. Those, not velocity or energy firgures are the true determiners of power in a straight wall handgun cartridge. In those areas the .480 wins hands down. Yeah I know, ya don't agree. 

Ok I don't agree.    But I solved that problem and went with a 500 Mag. The funny thing about that is, everyone is going to say that is over kill. I just can't win. 

[Lloyd Smale]

come on redhawk you can put up a better fight then that. Even if greaybeard is right! bottom line is bullet diameter and weight are the main factors in handgun hunting at least with cast bullets. But the bottom line is also that either of the cartridges have enough and you can include the 44 mag and 45 colt loaded properly in there too. But truth be know id much rather have a 400 grain .475 bullet going at 1000fps then a 45 350 going at 2000fps if the going got rough.

[Redhawk1]

come on redhawk you can put up a better fight then that. Even if greaybeard is right! bottom line is bullet diameter and weight are the main factors in handgun hunting at least with cast bullets. But the bottom line is also that either of the cartridges have enough and you can include the 44 mag and 45 colt loaded properly in there too. But truth be know id much rather have a 400 grain .475 bullet going at 1000fps then a 45 350 going at 2000fps if the going got rough.

The diameter of the 480 over the 454 Casull is so small I don't think it is a factor .452.   .475 we are talking .023 about the thickness of your finger nail. You all know I love big bore handguns and rifles, but you are getting out there. Let me see, a 480 with a 400 gr. bullet and a 454 Casull with a 395 gr. bullet and the 454 Casull going about 300 to 400 fps faster. I would say that is a no brainier. The 454 of course. 

OK I gave it my best shot Lloyd Smale. 

Well I off to West Virginia today, you guys gave me a headache. I need a rest.  I'll be back Monday

[Gungrubber]

ohhh it's time to get out the manuals hodgdon's annual lists the following 454. 325 gr sft hp max velocity with the best load is 1558
with 24 grn of lil gun. 480 with a 325 gr hp lists 1525 max load velocity.... not impressed by a mere 33 fps more velocity here.
at the expense of a smaller diameter. Now if we are chucking cast bullets the 454 launches a 360 gr cpb lfn at 1477 fps max
the 480 will put a 370 gr cpb lfp downrange at 1539 max hmmm that's 62  fps faster with a heavier bullet.

True the 480 was designed to be between the 454 and the 44 but that's not what it has become. And as mentioned before
when shooting cast bullets where velocity is limited the 454 comes in second. The original factory loads for the 480 were running at 1350 fps these were actually in velocity between the 454 and 44 but as usual the handloaders raised the bar and the lead the 454 had has been eliminated. the 454 has the edge in velocity but has to lighten the bullet to get it that is not desirable in handgun hunting. so let's put that between myth to rest shall we. The 454 has the velocity edge. the 480 has the edge in weight and diameter
all things considered they are equals on the hunt. you pick what you like.

As far as both guns having significant recoil that I have no argument with it's the controlability of that recoil that I was referring to
the 454 has a very sharp snapping recoil the 480 has less snap and more push it's the best way to explain it.

Also shall we raise the issue of brass life the 454 is a notorious brass eater with heavy loads the 480 doesn't seem to be nearly as hard on the brass. but shooting with cast bullets this is really not an issue.

pick your poison it's what you like that really matters but I still won't be buying a 454

[nomosendero]

I guess that the difference in bore size is significant only if we think it is or only between certain rounds. Don't we think the difference is important between a 44Mag & a 45LC or the Casull. I have heard & read many times that the advantage of a LC over the 44Mag was the frontral area. Well, the difference between the 45Cal & the 44 is .022.
The difference between a 45 & 475cal. is .024.
So, my assumption would be that .024 should be just as noteworthy as .022. Am I wrong about this, is the 45 all the dia. needed, if so then I really wonder about the purpose of the 50.

[Lloyd Smale]

lets see a 41 mag is 410 a 44 is 429 for .19 a .44/45 is .23 a 45/480 ia .24 Ive seen enough in the field to know that the .41 hits harder then he .44 and the .45 hits harder then the .44 and i know my .475 hits harder then either. So with your theroy on the small amount of differnce in bullet size meaning about nothing a 41 should hit dammed near as hard as a .475 another problem at least in my experience is that you can go to heavy with bullets. most guns arent twisted for such heavy bullets and wont shoot them well. Ive shot bullets up to 400 grains in the 45s and have found that going over 350 is a waste in penetration and usually there alot more finiky to get to shoot well. I think 41s max out at 250  44s at about 330 and .45s at 350 and .475s at about 420 and ballisticaly the .480 does best with 400s. So throwing away your velocity argument as you know how i feel about that. Properly loaded (at least in my opinion for what its worth) cast bullets at 1200 fps (just about optimum for penetration) im gaining 50grains of bullet and a pretty good step up in bullet size. Now granted  the 454 is a killing machine put a 350 at 1200 into anything and its dead but you can say the same for a 44 with 300s. Ive yet to see that load bounce off of anything. YOu know me redhawk im just big and slow!! Ive yet to find an advantage to pushing any handgun over 1400 fps other then showing the boys at the range a good fireball. About the only argumen there is would be the trajectory deal and ive shot a ton of long range out to 1000 yards with handguns and bottom line is if your out past 100 with any open sighted handgun you had better learn your gun. and out past 200 your absoulutley for sure holding over and it doesn mean squat as to how much you hold over as long as you know your gun and how to compensate. YOUR TURN PAL>

[EdK]

Also shall we raise the issue of brass life the 454 is a notorious brass eater with heavy loads the 480 doesn't seem to be nearly as hard on the brass. but shooting with cast bullets this is really not an issue.

Not sure I can completely agree with this statement on the 454. If there is truth to it it may be the fault of the particular firearm the round is fired in...

No doubt the 454 is one high pressure round however this also exacerbates a sloppy chamber - allowing the brass to overly expand. Add to that something I read about written by Brian Pearce in Handloader: One reader wrote that his 454 brass was sticking in his Ruger SRH. Brian wrote that due to the special alloy Ruger makes the cylinder from it stretches/expands significantly upon firing and this elasticity not only lets the brass expand even more than normal, it pinches it afterwards. Brian writes this is not an uncommon complaint among Ruger SRH owners. So sure, in a platform which allows the brass to become overworked, I can understand this claim but it should not be cited as an inherent flaw with the round.

[Chop4]

Ok, let's go beyond theory, and use Scientific Theory.  Here's a website that will put us in the right state of mind:
http://www.deerstalker.com/kov.htm

For those who don't want to spend a lot of time there, it breaks down to this: Taylor used the formula "Momentum X Calibre" to arrive at levels of killing power, with a few anomolies.  Bekker modified the formula to "Momentum x Sectional Density", which eliminated and explained Taylor's anomolies, while giveing a much more accurate picture of killing power.

Here's the equation: (weight x velocity / 7000) x (weight / (7000 x diameter x diameter)) = Bekker improved Taylor Knock Out Value.


So let's put this Theory to work for us. 
First I'll use similar bullet weights and velocities.
Second I'll compare (relatively) optimum loads for each calibre. 

Let's begin.
1) .480 calibre, 400 grain bullet, .476 diameter, 1400 fps.
(400 x 1400 / 7000) = 80 Momentum
(400 / (7000 x .476 x .476)) = .252..... Sectional Density
Answer x 80 = KOV of 20.176

1) .454 calibre, 395 grain bullet, .452 diameter, 1400 fps (I couldn't find 400 grain bullets anywhere).
(395 x 1400 / 7000) = 79 Momentum
(395 / (7000 x .452 x .452)) = .276.... Sectional Density
Answer x 79 = KOV of 21.82

(Bekker improved Taylor Knock Out Values of 20-22 are in the 180gr. 300 WinMag range, just for reference)
Here we saw that the superior sectional density of the slightly lighter .454 round has a more deadly effect than the slightly superior momentum of the .480 round. 


2) .480 calibre, 425 grains, .476 diameter, 1250 FPS.
(425 x 1250 / 7000) = 75.89 Momentum
(425 x (7000 x .476 x .476)) = .268 Sectional Density
Answer x 75.89 = KOV of 20.33

2) .454 calibre, 395 grains, .452 diameter, 1350 FPS.
(395 x 1350 / 7000) = 76.18 Momentum
(395 / (7000 x .452 x .452)) = .276 Sectional Density
Answer x 76.18 = KOV of 21.04

2) And another "optimum" .454 load
.454 cal., 335 grain, .452 dia., 1625 fps.
(335 x 1625 / 7000) = 77.77 Momentum
(335 / (7000 x .452 x .452)) = .234 Sectional Density
Answer x 77.77 = KOV of 18.22

These calculations illustrate the ability to handload your argument in either gun's favor.   But either way, if you're quartering an elk in bear country you'll be most confidant with the round in your calibre that optimises both SD and Momentum, which is why I put up both perceptions of "optimum" for the .454 in the last comparison.   But getting the .480 into better SD ranges might mean pushing bullet grain weights into .475 Linebaugh territory. 

Bottom line: It's not all about muzzle energy, or even energy at distance.  If two bullets (of the same design of course) weigh the exact same, and leave the muzzle at the exact velocity, the lower caliber (narrower) bullet will retain more velocity and KOV at any given distance, and will have less of a propensity to be slowed down in any medium (air or bear), and will therefore penetrate deeper while imparting more energy.  Unless maybe if it pops out the back side and puts that additional energy into a tree...  Let's put it another way:  If two rounds reach the target with the exact same level of energy/momentum, the one with the better sectional density (again, the lower caliber/thinner one) will have less of a propensity to be stopped, and will penetrate further than the larger caliber bullet, even though they both deliver exactly the same level of energy. 

Woah, that might take us below the bottom line.  If one imparts it's energy faster, in that it penetrates less deeply while imparting the same level of energy, it stands to reason that as long as it penetrates deep enough, it will impart a greater shock to the subject.  This goes into scientific theory that I'm not prepared to argue. 

[Graybeard]

While you and that guy were playing with theory and supposed effect some of us were out in the real world shooting game and KNOW the real answer.

[safetysheriff]

i have a question re: the original inquiry in this post.    wasn't there a significant problem with the .480 Ruger in the SRH with the fired cases being very difficult to eject in some revolvers?

i thought that was a problem that had been posted here some time back.    maybe it had been on another site.

does anybody remember any such problem?

ss'

[DPHunter]

Although I realize that Chop4 favors the .454 over the .480(my choice), I am just impressed that he took the time to break down the equation and explain in such detail.  If my professor in college could have explained physics in this type of application, I may have been more interested and learned a little more!

[Graybeard]

i have a question re: the original inquiry in this post.    wasn't there a significant problem with the .480 Ruger in the SRH with the fired cases being very difficult to eject in some revolvers?

i thought that was a problem that had been posted here some time back.    maybe it had been on another site.

does anybody remember any such problem?

ss'

Hornady .454 Casull ammo had (maybe still has) a real problem in both Ruger and Taurus RB guns. The brass is much softer than other brands and both manufacturers leave their cylinders rough inside, a real bad combination.

Never had any problem in the RB480 with Hornady ammo or brass tho nor with Hornady ammo in the FA83 just in my RB.

[Old Griz]

OK, what would happen if we through the FA .500 Wyoming Express into the mix with a 440-gr bullet?