.454 or .480, that is the Question?

[Chop4]

Although I realize that Chop4 favors the .454 over the .480(my choice), I am just impressed that he took the time to break down the equation and explain in such detail.  If my professor in college could have explained physics in this type of application, I may have been more interested and learned a little more!

I don't really favor the .454, it's just that the math does, in certain circumstances. 
If I could have one FA 83 it would be a 6 or 7.5 inch .475 Linebaugh
If you do the math on loads that you can get fast follow up shots with, you will probably find that the .480 (or down-loaded .475Linebaugh) gives you more knock-down power. 
For example:
.454 with 325 grains at 1400 fps gives you just over 14.75 KOV.  (Sectional Density of about .227)
.475 with 400 grains at 1100 fps gives you just over 15.9 KOV.    (Sectional Density of about .253)

While you and that guy were playing with theory and supposed effect some of us were out in the real world shooting game and KNOW the real answer.

Greybeards comments do not insult me, but relay insult to a pair of gentlemen who've killed or personally witnessed the killing of more and more dangerous game than every person on this forum-site put together.  These gentlemen had the education and insight to put reason to their vast base of knowledge for the betterment of their peers and clients.  I'm sure that Mr. John Taylor and Chris Bekker are content with their achievements, and they stand above such comment.   
Additionally, the above math indicates that Greybeard's comment was spoken in haste, a constant danger to heated forum responses.  His experience is validated by the math.    

OK, what would happen if we through the FA .500 Wyoming Express into the mix with a 440-gr bullet?

I can tell you what it should do 


Seriously though, this is just a tool for your tool box, not a fool-proof fix-all.  You can get hurt plugging the numbers for a caliber and SD, then putting a hollowpoint of that SD ontop of all that powder.  As soon as it hits something that SD doubles and all your calculations go out the window.  This is a tool to get you to a starting point if you don't have a lot of personal experience, and a way to test your ideas or work out testable loads if you do have experience.  Just use common sense and compare apples to apples. 

A lot of people carry different loads for different reasons.  If someone is looking to spend a whole lot of money on a new blaster, it's nice to be able to make comparisons that validate the experience of those who've used the different calibers and guns.  Like I've indicated above, experience comes from fact, and facts hold up.  If one round penetrates deeper into the same medium than another it's because it has physical properties that the other doesn't have in sufficient quantity, and the same results will occur next time you pull the trigger.   

Try it out with your various loads, and compare them to other calibres loads.  Do the math on some loads that aren't rated for as heavy game as some others and see if there is a KOV difference. 

[Lloyd Smale]

bottom line is this is bills forum and if he wants to stir he certainly has that right. Second the original post specificaly stated that he wasnt going to the dark continent but hunting is the states. Something i know Bill does have quite a bit of experience with using handguns as do a few others on here. We may not have had articles written on our hunting but have shot quite a veriaty of game under many different field conditions with hand guns. I dont buy into any of the theroys of ft lbs of energy or taylor knock down. Bottom line is that every circumstance has to many veriyables. Bottom line is bill gives advise using his own real world experiences and not by quoting others and if you dont agree with him thats fine but in my opinion thats what should be posted here. REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE either what you have done or at least what you have personaly witnessed. To many internet experts out there quoting what the third cousin of the brother of some famous guy told them was true. I dont know you so i wont comment on what you know but i do know Bill and i know one thing in all the years ive been on here hes never typed one word the was BS or was put there to stir up crap. Hes an honest man giving an honest opinion.

Although I realize that Chop4 favors the .454 over the .480(my choice), I am just impressed that he took the time to break down the equation and explain in such detail.  If my professor in college could have explained physics in this type of application, I may have been more interested and learned a little more!

I don't really favor the .454, it's just that the math does, in certain circumstances. 
If I could have one FA 83 it would be a 6 or 7.5 inch .475 Linebaugh
If you do the math on loads that you can get fast follow up shots with, you will probably find that the .480 (or down-loaded .475Linebaugh) gives you more knock-down power. 
For example:
.454 with 325 grains at 1400 fps gives you just over 14.75 KOV.  (Sectional Density of about .227)
.475 with 400 grains at 1100 fps gives you just over 15.9 KOV.    (Sectional Density of about .253)

While you and that guy were playing with theory and supposed effect some of us were out in the real world shooting game and KNOW the real answer.

Greybeards comments do not insult me, but relay insult to a pair of gentlemen who've killed or personally witnessed the killing of more and more dangerous game than every person on this forum-site put together.  These gentlemen had the education and insight to put reason to their vast base of knowledge for the betterment of their peers and clients.  I'm sure that Mr. John Taylor and Chris Bekker are content with their achievements, and they stand above such comment.   
Additionally, the above math indicates that Greybeard's comment was spoken in haste, a constant danger to heated forum responses.  His experience is validated by the math.    

OK, what would happen if we through the FA .500 Wyoming Express into the mix with a 440-gr bullet?

I can tell you what it should do 


Seriously though, this is just a tool for your tool box, not a fool-proof fix-all.  You can get hurt plugging the numbers for a caliber and SD, then putting a hollowpoint of that SD ontop of all that powder.  As soon as it hits something that SD doubles and all your calculations go out the window.  This is a tool to get you to a starting point if you don't have a lot of personal experience, and a way to test your ideas or work out testable loads if you do have experience.  Just use common sense and compare apples to apples. 

A lot of people carry different loads for different reasons.  If someone is looking to spend a whole lot of money on a new blaster, it's nice to be able to make comparisons that validate the experience of those who've used the different calibers and guns.  Like I've indicated above, experience comes from fact, and facts hold up.  If one round penetrates deeper into the same medium than another it's because it has physical properties that the other doesn't have in sufficient quantity, and the same results will occur next time you pull the trigger.   

Try it out with your various loads, and compare them to other calibres loads.  Do the math on some loads that aren't rated for as heavy game as some others and see if there is a KOV difference. 

[Gungrubber]

All math aside folks the most important thing is this

You have confidence in the gun your shooting. can hit what you aim at. Can make a clean kill at the distances you will be shooting.

if you can check off these three then everything else is a personal choice.

Argument's to, from, for, and against Can go on forever.

If you put meat on the table and you are happy with your pistol that is the real test

Am I correct gentlemen??

GG

[corbanzo]

Stir away, oh stir away.  The real truth here is that a .44magnum can take any game in north america.  Why do we go bigger?  Preferance.  When decided to get my first RB, it was because I had shot my friends .480, but I decided on the .454 because I've always liked smaller and faster, don't ask me why, I just do.  Which may be the reason I prefer to the .17hmr to the .22mag, have both, shoot the .17 more. 

Can the .480  shoot a bigger bullet?  Yes, its got a bigger diameter.
Can the .454 shoot faster?  Yes, its smaller and uses higher pressures.

If you shoot a bear or deer or moose with either one is it going to look at you and laugh and run off?  Well, maybe a little run, but not laughing and not too far.  I often wonder, how did people kill animals before the 70's when none of these cartridges existed?? 

[Graybeard]

Too few seem to understand the history behind Taylor's formula and what it REALLY represents. I'm not gonna waste my time here with a full explaination, if you havef the interest research it yourself.

BUT it wasn't ever intended to apply to handguns. It applied then and now ONLY to big bore rifles used with solids on dangerous game. NOTHING ELSE. To apply it otherwise shows a complete and total lack of understanding of it.

I have no clue who the other guy is you say IMPROVED it but just who says it's an improvement? It still doesn't apply to handgun rounds or on game other than African dangerous game if ti's a modification of Taylor's.

Some times folks don't really know nearly as much as they THINK they do and so they go off on tangents having little application to the real world. And NONE to the topic at hand.

Taylor's formula has been misused and misinterpreted by more pepole and in more places than likely any other attempt to quantify performance. It just shows that folks don't really do their home work and merely quote some other person who in most cases is merely doing the same.

[Redhawk1]

Well I am back and see this thread is still going. 

I thought about and read all the comments and I am glad I chose the 460 & 500 Mags. I don't have to keep disagreeing with any of you. 

[Old Griz]

OK, what would happen if we through the FA .500 Wyoming Express into the mix with a 440-gr bullet?

I can tell you what it should do 

I wish he would tell me. I'm the ignorant one still using .44s and .41s.

[992]

For the same reason you don't use a claw hammer to drive railroad spikes,you could probly do it in time but a sledge hammer works much better

[EdK]

Yes, it's amazing how a quick web search will turn up a number of people who misuse and/or misinterpret TKO

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/ProductsServices/tabid/194/Default.aspx

[DPHunter]

I'm afraid the .454 and .480 would both surrender to that "cannon".

[Gungrubber]

I'm afraid the .454 and .480 would both surrender to that "cannon".

That all depends on who is shooting it

firepower is the bullet that hits.

GG

[hicntry]

Getting in on this a bit late gentlemen, but, couldn't resist. I guess everyone has a reason they pick the gun they use for hunting if they have thought about it. I have shot the SRH .480 and loved it. Was on my way down the mountain to buy me one of those babies. Well, I had just sold a Stainless RH with a 7 1/2" bbl after 5 years off ownership. I put 10 rounds through it. I was used to my .44 mag SBHH and just couldn't, or didn't feel comfortable with the DA. I shoot the 300 gr XTP's instead of the 240's also. When the dogs bay up bad hogs they are usually in heavy brush and I spend a lot of time crawling in to them. I wasn't looking for fast and light to make those PO'd hogs madder while I was in the brush. That .44 mag doesn't have to push that 300gr XTP fast and it doesn't make those hogs jump a bit either. It will knock them down at 5 to 15 yards, which gives me a bit more time if they want to get back up. Dang I wanted that .480 but just decided I didn't need any more than what I had in the .44 mag. They all do the job if you can shootem.......... but some are a sight more fun to show off.

[buzztail]

i have a question re: the original inquiry in this post.    wasn't there a significant problem with the .480 Ruger in the SRH with the fired cases being very difficult to eject in some revolvers?

i thought that was a problem that had been posted here some time back.    maybe it had been on another site.

does anybody remember any such problem?

ss'

Hornady .454 Casull ammo had (maybe still has) a real problem in both Ruger and Taurus RB guns. The brass is much softer than other brands and both manufacturers leave their cylinders rough inside, a real bad combination.

Never had any problem in the RB480 with Hornady ammo or brass tho nor with Hornady ammo in the FA83 just in my RB.

I'll just note that my .480 SRH will have somewhat sticky extraction with the Speer 325gr. GDSPs but is fine with the 400gr. Hornady factory loadings. I agree 110% with GB- this round really comes into it's own with 400gr. cast loadings @1100fps. That is the load I wanted to shoot in this gun from day one.

[Skeeterbaymac]

Old Griz your not the only one still using the 44's.  After reading this I feel like a wimp!

The biggest revolver I own and can shoot well is the little 44mag. But it works for me.  I use it on bear, deer, moose, woodchucks you name it.   Just took a moose a couple of weeks ago with the little 300 grain hard cast and a load of 296.  Quartering shot bullet exited the opposite shoulder.  Can't even tell you the amount of game I have taken with the little 44mag.  I have tried most of the others at one time or another and can't shoot them well. So I always return to the little 44.         

[shilo]

Any animal shot in the vitals with either one will be just as dead - as long as the proper bullet is used.

[John R.]

Graybeard is correct when he says the only way to increase handgun power is to go up in bullet dia. I shoot a Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt and it kills hogs just as dead as the Casull (once the 45 caliber bullet goes all the way through, that's it). If you want more power get a bigger bullet. I shoot a 325 gr. WLN out of my Bisley and I will have to say it is devestating on hogs. My buddy shoots a 475 Linebaugh and needless to say it works great.

[Redhawk1]

Graybeard is correct when he says the only way to increase handgun power is to go up in bullet dia. I shoot a Ruger Bisley in 45 Colt and it kills hogs just as dead as the Casull (once the 45 caliber bullet goes all the way through, that's it). If you want more power get a bigger bullet. I shoot a 325 gr. WLN out of my Bisley and I will have to say it is devestating on hogs. My buddy shoots a 475 Linebaugh and needless to say it works great.

So that I have this straight, if I use a 180 gr. bullet in my 30-30 and use the same bullet in my 300 Win Mag, I don't have more power???  Then why are the foot pounds of energy so much greater?? I guess I need to go back to ballistic school. 

[Graybeard]

Get with the program, the comment was made relative to straight wall handgun rounds NOT bottle neck rifle rounds.

[John R.]

GB is correct again, we weren't talking about high velocity rifle cartridges. The only advantage a 460 has over a 454 or 45 is velocity, which in hangun cartridges only gives an advantage in trajectory. Once the bullet has gone completely through the animal your still left with a 45 caliber hole. If you want more horsepower out of your HANDGUN you'll need to make a bigger hole.Speaking of trajectory, that will only make a difference if you can apply it (like a scope). With iron sights the flatter trajectory will be insignificant. Nuff said

[mk454]

wow, talk about being late to the party, school's had me very tied for the last year or so.  anyway, i have 2 FA .454's, and a BFR .475.  gotta tell ya, i don't notice one lick of difference in either on hogs here in texas.  not a bit, in fact, i don't notice one bit b/w them and the bigger ones either like my bud's smith .500 WITH cast bullets.  anything on this continent can be taken with a .44, especially with the garrett cartridges, or a .45 colt.  i shoot the .454 for the trajectory, i like iron sights and yes you have to know your gun.  however, i don't use a range finder as i hate any extra gadgets, and the trajectory difference makes my slight errors in range estimation less.  now, i would truly favor the .480 in guns like the RB, but in the FA83, i've got no probs with cases sticking etc.  i have immense choices in what i want to load and my 11 year old took a deer last year with the FA83 and a special load my bud concocted which worked wonders on whitetails. slow, but the cast bullet just plugs on through.  no offense to anyone, but there's not gonna be squat difference in 40 grains and a .021 circumference.  never seen it on elk, deer, hogs.  i guess everyone says that the only advantage is in trajectory but i'm saying, exactly and that's an important consideration.

perhaps i'm missing why comparing handguns to large bore rifles with solids isn't similiar.

[John R.]

To be honest with you the 480/475 doesn't kick as bad as the 454 to me. The 454 runs a good bit higher pressure and isn't real pleasant with 300 gr.plus max loads.

[Hairtrigger]

To be honest with you the 480/475 doesn't kick as bad as the 454 to me. The 454 runs a good bit higher pressure and isn't real pleasant with 300 gr.plus max loads.

The way I understood it, recoil less than the 454 was one of the things that made the 480 great!

[Redhawk1]

Get with the program, the comment was made relative to straight wall handgun rounds NOT bottle neck rifle rounds.

I am with the program Bill. It does not matter if you are talking about straight wall cartridges or bottle neck. Energy is energy no matter the platform.
 
John R., I don't know what you know about ballistic's because I don't know your back ground. But If I take a .452 Cal bullet that weighs 300 gr. and push it faster the velocity go's up and therefor the energy goes up. The amount of energy expended in any animal will increase if the bullet is going faster, no matter if it passes through, sure dead is dead.

So if I take a 45 Long colt and push a 300 gr. cast bullet at 1000 fps and then take a 500 Mag with a 300 gr. cast bullet at 1000 fps. What you are telling me is the 500 Mag has more energy?? If that is so, I will have to disagree with you.  Because the .048 difference in bullet circumference will not make much difference. There may be a difference but not much at all if any. That was my point about the bottleneck cartridges. Energy is energy no matter the platform.  

[Graybeard]

It's PAPER energy NOT real energy and is NOT related to WORk as in the definitions learned in physics. It is maybe not TOTALLY meaningless but is so nearly so as to not be of a concern. It matters ONLY in that enough is needed to get the bullet thru the animal if a solid or cast and to obturate the bullet if a JSP or JHP and still get it into the vitals. More is not better and it's NOT that fpe that we're talking about even then really but real energy as in what is needed to do WORK.

You're reading too many magazines.

[Redhawk1]

It's PAPER energy NOT real energy and is NOT related to WORk as in the definitions learned in physics. It is maybe not TOTALLY meaningless but is so nearly so as to not be of a concern. It matters ONLY in that enough is needed to get the bullet thru the animal if a solid or cast and to obturate the bullet if a JSP or JHP and still get it into the vitals. More is not better and it's NOT that fpe that we're talking about even then really but real energy as in what is needed to do WORK.

You're reading too many magazines.

Sorry Graybeard I don't read many gun rags, I speak from experience. That is why I think I have some knowledge about the subject.

A bullet does not need to go completely through an animal to be successful. If a bullet expends all of its energy in the animal , and is found on the opposite side of the shot in the hide, the bullet construction and velocity and energy have performed to it's full potential , it is more affective that a pass through shot.  If a bullet zips through an animal and not much energy is expended in the animal it is just as bad as not enough penetration. That is why bullet construction, velocity are a key and integral part. A poor bullet choice negates velocity. If the bullet explodes instead of penetrates. 

Can you please explain paper energy and real energy, as you stated in you post. I am a little confused. I think you guys try to make more out of what it is. It is what it is.

[safetysheriff]

i think that under varying conditions diameter, velocity, weight, and terminal performance of the bullet have a significant impact upon what a shooter can//wants to achieve.....with some qualifications.

if using a scope on a handgun then i think that velocity and a flatter trajectory May be more important to someone who can learn their trajectory and take advantage of it.   without a scope i don't think higher velocity matters as much on 'most' game hunted at 'normal' distances.   at just 1200 fps' with a proper alloy and ".44 mag" diameter Elmer Keith and others did wonders.......often with hardcast lead.  

for Large game -- from elk on up - i believe that velocity is worth something if the angle of the shot is 'bad' and if the bullets alloy or jacketed construction will allow it to penetrate to the vitals.   velocity doesn't much matter at a bad angle if the bullet isn't capable of holding together to reach the vitals.   this can be a 'funny' situation, however.   higher impact velocities put more stress on the bullets we use today.   some of them will fail if their alloy and construction can't handle the impact velocity.    

for the cast vs jacketed debate:   i'd stick with jacketed hollowpoints for .41 mag' on up.......and jacketed flatpoints for more penetration in .357 on down...... when dealing with antelope, deer, cougar, and caribou.  

for hogs, elk, moose, grizzly, buffalo, etc. in that category i'd go with a hardcast alloy that will not fracture readily and that will, therefore, break bones and penetrate to the vitals.   Randy Garrett's ammo' is a good example in .44 mag' of what that means.   so, too, are some other alloys.

john linebaugh, randy garrett, and others have shown how increasing bullet mass.....particularly with the 'weight-forward' design allowing a good powder charge inside the case.....adds to penetration if bullet alloy and construction are proper.   (notice that the powder charge is important because of the velocity our bullets will reach....)  along with this we also see that diameter and shape of the bullet affects how much tissue is destroyed in the "permanent wound channel".   this greatly impacts whether we will spend a lot of time tracking an animal or not!  

i respect the opinions already expressed.   but i think there is actually a lot to think about even when using a handgun to go hunting.    i suggest, again, that all 4 variables are worthy of our consideration.

ss'  



i

[mk454]

in all those penetration "studies" it seemed that the design played as much if not more important part of the factors leading to penetration than just size and mass alone.  also, you could see that the types and amounts of .475 and .500 linebaugh loads shot was much great than what was used out of a .454.  interesting that the .500 SW loads performed worse than the .500 linebaugh loads however, the .454 loads outperformed the .45 colt loads for the most part in both accounts, and the .475 loads that weren't an LBT design performed worse than a couple of the .454 loads.  similiar designs and a slightly more scientific testing parameter might help.  however, if poking a hole through the vitals is all that is required, on any of the north american game i wouldn't argue anthing beating a .45 colt as far as just killing an animal.  and KE does have an effect when the bullet expands.  the problem has always been getting bullets to expand and not break apart until some of the newer bullet technologies came into effect. 

and yes, lower recoil is something that is an advantage in the .480, but i can download the .454 to match the low recoil and both will have no problems penetrating hogs, deer or elk.

[mk454]

also wanted to ad that the .500's, the various .475's, and the .454 have all taken elephants, cape buff and the like so i'm not sure how much more real world one can get that they ALL work fine on hogs, ammo price, availability, etc. all favor the .454 imho.  however, if i was shooting a raging bull revolver i'd stay away from the .454 as the bull has had many probs holding together for that gun, in the FA, it'll last longer than me.  that said, i'd shoot a SW .500 if the size of the gun wasn't so large.  it's just bigger than i want.  here comes the .500 wyoming express.

[drdougrx]

...and to think....I searched long and hard for a research topic that would pass the "so what" test for my PhD.......my hair hurts......

[Graybeard]

Sorry Graybeard I don't read many gun rags, I speak from experience. That is why I think I have some knowledge about the subject.

Well dang it read some, you can blame every thing on a rag writer if you try. 

A bullet does not need to go completely through an animal to be successful. If a bullet expends all of its energy in the animal , and is found on the opposite side of the shot in the hide, the bullet construction and velocity and energy have performed to it's full potential ,

At least on that much we can agree. BUT I like an exit hole cuz I've had darn few critters fall down where they lay unless the CNS was hit. I'm about half blind up close and don't see blood well at all in the leaves. I like a BIG BOLD BLOOD trail with my critter at the end of it when it don't fall to the shot.

it is more affective that a pass through shot.

 

Can't agree with that. I do agree it CAN be as effective but never more so and there is often little to no blood trail when they don't fall to the shot. I'll take an exit wound every time.

If a bullet zips through an animal and not much energy is expended in the animal it is just as bad as not enough penetration. That is why bullet construction, velocity are a key and integral part. A poor bullet choice negates velocity. If the bullet explodes instead of penetrates.

It's NOT energy expended that matters, it's tissue damage. Yeah I know we're really saying the same thing but in differnt ways with this really.

Can you please explain paper energy and real energy, as you stated in you post. I am a little confused. I think you guys try to make more out of what it is. It is what it is.

It's been about 45 years since I took Physics so forumlas are not still in my head. BUT energy has a definition in physics and a measuring stick for it. I wanna say Joules is the term used to define how much energy is required to do so much work. It's measured in pounds feet with one pound foot being the amount of work or energy required to raise an object weighting one pound to a height of one foot assuming no loss due to friction or inertia I think. It's all kinda fuzzy in my head after all these years.

But if those fpe were REAL rather than paper numbers you could shoot a bullet into a deer and it would literally be picked up into the air and tossed ala the movies. But it ain't real it's just paper numbers and has no real world application.

Now if you wanna really talk true real world energy get you a physics book and figure it out. I'm sure it can be done and the numbers would be far far less and so low you'd say no way that can't be right.

Now I do accept that hydrostatic shock is real and that's a result of velocity more than anything. Slap a high speed bullet into water and all sorts of wild things happen. To some lesser extent yes it can and does happen in an animal as tissue is mostly water. BUT it's not the same as in water. That's the reason light weight high speed bullets really do kill as Jack O'Connor said they did but so do big slow moving ones as Elmer said. Both were right in that regard.