What Will Happen ????

[S.S.]

When Israel finds out that the Two Kidnapped Soldiers
that started the war have already been Be-headed ?
Will the truce be voided?
I will be amazed if those two guys are still alive!

[S.S.]

Israel was far too restrained in this "Skirmish"
They were too worried about World opinion
to effectively fight a war. Just like our troops
in Iraq and Afghanistan. This was more of a
punitive action than a war. When I see the
Billions of Dollars that have been spent in Iraq
to keep from harming the next generation of terrorists
It makes me want to puke. The object of war is to KILL
your Enemies. And to stop them from rising up
against you again ! Our enemies understand this, Our leaders do not!
Maybe when those two do turn up, Israel will remember what
"TOTAL WAR" is and eliminate the problems.
Israel's leaders are firing on the wrong targets too,
Syria needs to be turned into a parking lot!

[S.S.]

Damage was and is indeed severe,
But it is nothing compared to what it could have been.
Israel will be pushed to the brink next time,
Hezbolla and the Arab world has seen restraint as weakness.
Israel will have to Utterly destroy it's Next opponent
or the Arabs will push them into the Sea.
I believe this Opponent will be Iran.
If they Allow Iran to create a Nuke, Israel will pay
for it with hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Syria, Egypt and Jordan better think about Nuclear
Fall-out too and do something about that idiot in Iran.
If he gets it, I have no Doubt he will use it.

[WD45]

WELL,
That parking lot in Syria needs to extend over through Iran.
You cant reason with unreasonable people.
The united notions is a joke. This so called peace keeping force is a joke. They are not keeping peace of any kind. what a bunch of hooowee
Talk is cheap and while everybody keeps talking and passing resolutions that mean nothing because all they do is talk about them the terrorists and all the rest of the nuts do what ever they want. Heck , We can set here and make resolutions that mean as much as anything the UN comes up with
And now this morning I here on the radio that they are investigating Israel for crimes against humanity for their little forray with Hezbola but guess what.. they are not investigating Hezbola for anything and are pushing the idea that they are just being picked on by Israel.
I think they will eventually push Israel to the point that they will kick every palistinian/ muslim out of the country and more power to em!
If things keep going the way they are in a few years we will be posting in Arabic

[CyberSniper]

Yeah, and don't forget who started that last fight either.
Not only did Hezbollah grab the soldiers, they started firing rockets into Israel.
The U.N. is a sick, corrupt joke, and seems to be powerless to actually
enforce so much as a parking ticket.
Then again, the U.N. is probably under the control of the bad guys anyway,
and has it's own dark agenda....

[Lead Poison]

Damage was and is indeed severe,
But it is nothing compared to what it could have been.
Israel will be pushed to the brink next time,
Hezbolla and the Arab world has seen restraint as weakness.
Israel will have to Utterly destroy it's Next opponent
or the Arabs will push them into the Sea.
I believe this Opponent will be Iran.
If they Allow Iran to create a Nuke, Israel will pay
for it with hundreds of thousands of deaths.
Syria, Egypt and Jordan better think about Nuclear
Fall-out too and do something about that idiot in Iran.
If he gets it, I have no Doubt he will use it.

I sadly, I believe you're correct.

[Casull]

First, it is questionable whether the Israeli soldiers were taken into custody on the Israel side of the border or the lebanon side. In fact, the exact border line is in dispute from the last Israeli occupation of that part of lebanon

First, why does it matter which side of the border they were on (and that's assuming that there is any question as to this issue).  Hezbollah is not an authorized military unit of Lebanon, it is a group of terrorists.

Secondly, Hizboolah launched missles into Israel AFTER being attacked and invaded.

Secondly, according to my recollections (and as verified by CNN's timetable of the events), Hezbollah abducted the two soldiers, killed eight Israeli soldiers and launched missiles into Israel on July 12.  The Israeli's launched their response on July 13.

Thirdly, 9 Israeli citizens were killed by missle launches, but 1000 or more Lebanonese civilians were killed. On the civilian to military killed ratio Hizbollah far outscored Israel in enemy military killed per civilian casualty.

Thirdly, Israel does not hide its soldiers in civilian neighborhoods, as does Hezbollah (albeit terrorists, not soldiers).  If Israel is going to defend itself against these terrorist attacks, it must direct its strikes at where the terrorists are.  Furthermore, under the last treaty between Israel and Lebonan, the latter was under the obligation to disarm Hezbollah.  Obviously, Lebanon is iin violation of that treaty (whether by omission or commission).

And finally after all of this Israel, just today, has expressed willingness to discuss the missing soldiers problem now--after all this distruction. However,they are not willing to discuss water rights in the Gaza and the Palestinian dirt existence problem---so the rest of the Arab/Persian world will no doubt continue to consider Israel and Big Brother the main enemy. The question I have is if Israel has pulled back away from the valuable Litani River resource.

And finally, why should Israel pull back.  Their history is one of being attacked by other countries and/or terrorist groups with the backing of other countries, winning the conflict and terrority, and then eventually giving back the rightfully won terrority.

[Skeptic10787]

The soldiers aren't the point. They could be alive... probably are dead. Doesn't matter.
The point is that the terrorists, yet again, started a war with nearly zero effort. Their plan was a great success.
Same with 9/11. Their point wasn't just to kill American civilians. Hell, more civilians die "needlessly" each day in auto accidents and such. Their plan worked better than they could ever have imagined. They started a war that they feel is a holy war, made every muslim casualty into a martyr, turned Americans against our own government, turned Americans against each other, spread hatred and hypocricy throughout our country, used our own media to voice their propaganda, ect ect, I could go on. They pulled our great country down to joke status by murdering a handful of people out of the roughly 4 billion we have. They accomplished their goal.

[Casull]

Because that is international law.....it is a key point as to the initial responsibility for this sad affair. Hizbollah is a legal political party of Lebanon and a militia. I doubt that Lebanon follows the same conventions as we Americans concerning militias and protection from invaders and the like. However, our Constitution does allow militias in spite of state and federal government's effort to end them. I see a loose similarity, in application of relativity, between Hizbollah and our own civilian miltia on the borders. I think it was even suggested that Israel even instigated the whole affair on some broadcast analysis. I don't know for sure, but the whole affair was not that unusual in that part of the world and that particular border in contention.

You originally stated that the actual border is in dispute, therefore, it is not international law (until the actual border is determined).  Hezbollah may be a legal political party, but it most certainly is not a legal militia (how could it be when Lebanon's treaty with Israel requires that it disarm Hezbollah).  I see no similarity between the Minute Men and Hezbollah.  One is a group of law abiding citizens aiding law enforcement and the other is a bunch of illegally armed, murderous terrorists funded by an outlaw nation.  And of course Israel instigated the whole affair, by existing.

That's funny because CNN suggested the border violation on Israel's part and they and other sources indicated an Israeli build up prior to the border affair. Funny that their response was just the next day in any case. Observers saw an Israeli buildup prior to the affair.

What's funny.  You said Israel launched its retaliation before Hezbollah sent its rockets into Israel, and it did not do so.  Further, I take it then that Israel is not allowed to build up its forces on its border (why should they, its not like their ever going to be attacked).  And shame on Israel for responding the next day, they should have waited a respectable amount of time before defending themselves.

Yes indeed, Hizbollah does not have wide scale government economic support, operates on donations and Iranian support; thus they do live and work out their own homes and business'. Building large bases in the dessert with bullseyes on them would not suit their intentions as an underground and resistance movement. Lebanon trying to disarm Hizbollah would be akin to Washington trying to disarm us...the chaos would be monumental. Most Arab/Persian peoples will refuse to be rendered defenseless in light of the Israeli war machine, nuclear arsenal, and US multi-billion dollar support. It is a very sad state of affairs.

Now wait a second, is Hezbollah a legal political party and militia or is it an underground resistance movement.  I am so confused.  Disarming Hezbollah would be legal and in accordance with Lebanon's law (via treaty), while Washington disarming us would be a constitutional violation.  The problem is not that Hezbollah would be rendered defenseless, but rather that it would be rendered offenseless (since it continues to instigate these engagements).

Perhaps in the interest of world peace. But are you suggesting that Israel is indeed expansionist? If you are then you are reinforcing the number one fear of the Mos'lems, 2nd is Palestinian rights and welfare, and third is border issues and water rights, and fourth a weapons parity balance of power.  And perhaps fifth is conservation of their oil resource and their future after peak oil.

I never suggested that Israel is expansionist, but rather the opposite.  Time and again Israel has come under attack, defeated the attackers, and in the process gained terrority, only to later relinquish that lawfully won terrority, all in the name of peace.  And yet that peace never comes, because the attackers again and again return.  Those attacks will not stop until Israel is exterminated, or they finally destroy their enemies (or at least enough of those enemies so that the remainder lose their taste for blood).

Finally, I wonder why you seem to give all benefit of the doubt to the terrorists.  If something is in dispute, or there is a "suggestion" by some news agency, you immediately jump to the conclusion that Israel is at fault, and their enemy (which by the way, as a terrorist organization is our enemy) is the innocent lamb.

[Casull]

The border is known by Lebanon but annexed by Israel. Israel has also been accussed of flagrant border violations with their 'wall' project as well. I have not read the treaty with Israel stating that Hizbollah is to be null and void--strange considering that they garner 70% of Lebanonese citizens [including Christain and Druze] support which consider them lawful. Perhaps you can supply words of this treaty, and Lebanon's agreement, that renders Hizbollah null and void.

I see, the border is "known" by Lebanon, therefore no more questions.  Here is the wording from the "treaty" that was signed by Lebanon and Israel in May, 1983:

ARTICLE 4
1. The territory of each Party will not be used as a base for hostile or terrorist activity against the other Party its territory or its people.
2. Each Party will prevent the existence or organization of irregular forces armed bands organizations bases offices or infrastructure  the aims and purposes of which include incursions or any act of terrorism into the territory of the other Party or any other activity aimed at threatening or endangering the security of the other Party and safety of its people. To this end all agreements and arrangements enabling the presence and functioning on the territory of either Party of elements hostile to the other Party are null and void.

Of course I should add that while the treaty was ratified by the Lebanonese legislature by a margin of 80 votes, President Amin Gemayel abrogated the peace treaty on March 5, 1984.  Wel, you might say, then Lebanon does not need to abide by Article 4 above.  However, in that event then the territory rightfully won by Israel prior to the treaty and subsequently returned to Lebanon, is still Israeli territory.  In which case, Hezbollah definitely abducted the two soldiers from Israeli territory, and furthermore has been operating its terrorist attacks from within the Israeli border.

What's funny is that some analysis state that the respone  the Israeli invasion was totally over the top given the original causitive actual events. Israel's response took great planning and logistics, hence, some analysis say they were just looking for the excuse to invade and destroy this part of lebanon. What I want to know is their current position to the Litani River.

What's really funny is that you have still to acknowledge that your original point (that Israel's response came prior to the missile attacks of Hezbollah) was incorrect.  Further, I don't believe that Israel's response was over the top, since Hezbollah has not been wiped out yet.  Israel has been under more or less constant attacks, so of course they have planned ahead.  So what if some "analysists" believe Israel was just looking for an excuse to invade, since Hezbollah gave them a perfect excuse to do so.

Don't be confused--it's simple. Hizbollah is a legal political party that is greatly supported by the Lebanese electorate in so-called democratic elections that we helped to set up. As a militia they have the right to arm themselves much as we have the right in this country to arm ourselves. It functions akin to a resistance movement against foreign enchroachments since the Lebanonese military is kept impotent.

I'm not really confused.  Your tactics are typical liberal tools:  state a fact, when the fact is shown to be anything but, change the subject and state another "fact".  Referring to my point above, either the treaty is in place and therefore Hezbollah is not a legal militia under Lebanon's own laws, or the treaty is no longer effective and therefore Hezbollah is operating on Israeli territory.  Either way they do not have the right to arm themselves and attack civilians and/or a sovereign nation.  This is not akin to our Minute Men, but rather to Mexican nationals establishiing a "militia" in Texas and lobbing missiles into Dallas.

Well actually you kinda implied that thier forrays into neighboring countries is okay.

I in no way implied that Israel's defensive attacks on the soils of its foreign aggressors was "okay".  I clearly stated that belief in no uncertain terms.

BTW, do you think the US should support a country that practices aparthied?

Let's see, you support a country that practices terrorism and genocide (Lebanon, since you believe Hezbollah to be a legal political party and militia thereof, and since Hezbollah is committed to the eradication of Israel).  Given the choice between supporting an ally that, according to you, practices apartheid, and supporting an enemy (which Lebanon clearly is if it is harboring terrorists and 70 percent of its population is in support of this) that practices terrorism and genocide, I think I will chose the former.

[S.S.]

The main complaint I have heard is that the level of
Israels response far exceeded the "CRIME" that sparked it.
To these people, I have to Ask "What started WWI"?
An assassin's bullet killing a prince named Ferdinand....
Millions Died from that and I think the incident in Israel / Lebannon
will cost many more lives before it is over.
I think that this is just starting.

[WD45]

On the border issue.. The first statement that Hezbola released as to why they did what they did was to help boost the position and support of thier palistinian / Hamas brothers. From that statement it made no difference as to where these soldiers were other than the right place at the wrong time. This was a planned action by Hezbola that was not initiated by the government of Lebanon.

[Casull]

Why are you citing articles from a treaty, more an agreement under duress of occupation, that was voided more than 25 years ago

Because, as I stated previously, Israel gave up the territory in question as part of the agreement.  When one side voids an agreement, the other is not obligated to honor its duties thereunder.  Accordingly, the argument can be made that Hezbollah abducted (not took into custody) Israeli soldiers on Israeli territory.

Actually a state of war exist between Israel and Lebanon now in spite of US meddling and UN resolutions,

So, if a state of war exists between the two countries, how can the Israeli response be out of line?  They were bombing the "soldiers" of Lebanon where they exist.

I will agree that Hizbollah's military action on that day consisted of a diversionary rocket attack on Israeli military forces

Thank you.  That was the original dispute I had with your first posting.

OKay, here is where your bad side comes out--resorting to name calling; calling me a liberal with weak tactics

You're right, and I apologize for calling you a liberal (I certainly don't want to use the same tactics as Bush Master).  However, my stating that I thought your tactics were weak, is not name calling, but just an opinion of the tactics, not you personally.  Sort of like you calling my tactics "weasel wording".  We can point out our opinions of each others tactics (as well as each others facts and/or beliefs) without taking it personally.  You are probably  a nice guy, just misguided.

I too belief that Israel has the right to exist and to coexist with their neighbors

I'm very glad to hear this, but I don't think that those whose side you seem to be taking agree.  Most of Israel's neighbors (including the PLO) do not think Israel has the right to exist, and I believe that until they acknowledge this right, the situation will not take a turn for the better.

Casull, there you go again using--those lawyerly neocon distortions  trying to obfuscate. What I said was asking you if you support apartheid

Now, now, there you go talking about my "tactics" again.  Actually what you asked me was whether I was willing to support a country that practices apartheid.  While I do not support apartheid, I will always choose the lesser of two evils.  I say this, particularly after watching those that I consider to be the much greater of two evils dancing in the streets after the Towers fell and nearly three thousand of my countrymen perished.  I'm pretty sure there were no Israeli's doing the little death dance.

In any event, neither of us will convince the other, and we have probably beat this horse to death.  Have a nice evening, and I hope you never find yourself in the actual company of those you are championing.  I would hate to lose another fellow American to bastards.

[WylieKy]

The soldiers aren't the point. They could be alive... probably are dead. Doesn't matter.
The point is that the terrorists, yet again, started a war with nearly zero effort. Their plan was a great success.
Same with 9/11. Their point wasn't just to kill American civilians. Hell, more civilians die "needlessly" each day in auto accidents and such. Their plan worked better than they could ever have imagined. They started a war that they feel is a holy war, made every muslim casualty into a martyr, turned Americans against our own government, turned Americans against each other, spread hatred and hypocricy throughout our country, used our own media to voice their propaganda, ect ect, I could go on. They pulled our great country down to joke status by murdering a handful of people out of the roughly 4 billion we have. They accomplished their goal.

Amen,

WylieKy

[Mikey]

Well, let's see?  Hezbollah has literally sued for peace stating that it did not realize the Isreali response would be so severe.  Is that an admission of a major 'Oooops' on the part of Hezbollah - I think so.  Also, if the Lebanese continue to suffer as badly as they have because of Hezbollah that puts the Hezbollah on a bit of shakier ground that you would find the Isrealis at the hands of the UN. 

And let's please not forget that Isreal has the nuke, and the means to deliver it.  They have multiple warheads and multiple delivery systems - one is named 'Tehran', one is named 'Hezbollah', and one is named 'Palestine'. 

Truely those Islamic radicals must be quite foolish to think that the Isrealis would not move to solve all their problems at the same time if it suited them. 

And another issue for the Iranians is that the madman they elected president can continue to rant all he wants about the holocaust being baseless but if the Isrealis want to take that tact they can do so with just one or two of their 'Tehran' delivery systems and then deny that Iran ever existed.  Kinda like a 'tit-for-tat' for them.  JMHO.  Mikey.

[Dee]

Well, let's see?  Hezbollah has literally sued for peace stating that it did not realize the Isreali response would be so severe.  Is that an admission of a major 'Oooops' on the part of Hezbollah - I think so.  Also, if the Lebanese continue to suffer as badly as they have because of Hezbollah that puts the Hezbollah on a bit of shakier ground that you would find the Isrealis at the hands of the UN. 

And let's please not forget that Isreal has the nuke, and the means to deliver it.  They have multiple warheads and multiple delivery systems - one is named 'Tehran', one is named 'Hezbollah', and one is named 'Palestine'. 

Truely those Islamic radicals must be quite foolish to think that the Isrealis would not move to solve all their problems at the same time if it suited them. 

And another issue for the Iranians is that the madman they elected president can continue to rant all he wants about the holocaust being baseless but if the Isrealis want to take that tact they can do so with just one or two of their 'Tehran' delivery systems and then deny that Iran ever existed.  Kinda like a 'tit-for-tat' for them.  JMHO.  Mikey.

I like your logic.

[nabob]

Hezbollah faced Israel and did not lose. They are still there. That, more than anything else, will ensure support for them from most Muslims. They've punctured the aura of Israeli invincibility twice now. Once when they ended the 20 year Israeli occupation of Lebanon and now again when they've given as good as they've gotten in this conflict.

Anyone who thinks Hezbollah came out of this somehow weaker is fooling themselves.

[Skeptic10787]

The issue is that muslims are expected by the modern world to be savages. The world has become so accustomed to this that's it's expected to be normal.
This explains why the world blames Israel when Hezbollah uses Lebonese civilians as human shields. Not that I support Israel... they took the bait and started the war over two kidnapped soldiers... but they can't be expected to sit and allow their civilians to be murdered without defense, just because the muslim terrorists have no respect for the life of their own people.
Same theory can go with the "prisoner torture scandal". The muslims slowly behead, mutilate, make their victims suffer brutally, ect. ... and America blames Bush for "making" them do it. Yet when a captured terrorist is humiliated, it's considered torture. The actions done to the prisoners, though inappropriate, was NOT torture. Even the sleep deprivation and other mind games used to coerce information is a far cry from torture. It's just that this country is so used to the brutality of muslims, along with the anti-american propaganda, that they confuse the good guy from the bad guy. The only people that can be blamed for the terrorists actions are the terrorists. They DO NOT deserve better treatment than the average American (billed to the American taxpayer), and they DO NOT deserve the legal and civil rights of Americans. They deserve basic human rights, and that's it.
The muslim terrorists aren't winning in death tolls... they're winning because they create political havoc in every country they fight.

[Dee]

Skeptic, I would like to add one thing to that statement, but, alas, I believe the covered it too well. At times I believe we Americans have become too civilized, and cannot or will not muster the courage to shoot the rabid dog. We are afraid of offending the other rabid dogs of the pack.

[Tn Jim]

Skeptic, I would like to add one thing to that statement, but, alas, I believe the covered it too well. At times I believe we Americans have become too civilized, and cannot or will not muster the courage to shoot the rabid dog. We are afraid of offending the other rabid dogs of the pack.

Bingo. There it is.

[S.S.]

Hezbollah IS LEBANON !
They rule lebanon In much the way the Taliban started in Afghanistan.
Anyone who cannot see that Hezbollah is in charge of lebanon is blind.
Who runs And Finances Hezbollah? Iran
So basically that makes Lebanon a satellite state of Iran !
Who funds and Finances massive buisness deals with Iran?
France, Russia, China and several other European Countrys!
So are these countries supporting Terrorist and Terrorist activity ? Absolutely !
But Don't we have Trade relations with These other Nations, Yes !
So Is our money we use to buy European Goods going to support Terrorism?
Yes, Without a Doubt!   Where does the blame end?

[Skeptic10787]

The circle you mention will never end. American money will always make it's way to every nook of the world. I would hardly call it "blame" for financing terrorism. Should we stop trade and tourism with all countries, just because the money might get to a terrorist in a roundabout way? I'd be willing to bet it would destroy the economy of the country, while having very little impact on the terrorists.
Don't lose sight of the enemy through the smoke of our own political correctness.

[jimster]

Interesting topic, after reading all these posts I have a question because I am confused on the Hezbollah/Lebanon thing.
Lebanon has a government and a military. It seems that Hezbollah has a military also...?
If this is the case, and I'd like to hear comments, I might be way off here...but if this is the case, does a country normally have a seperate bunch of people with military weapons like missles, rocket launchers, ect...and let them decide to mess with another country? So which government is running the place there?
Could the United States of America allow us good armed citizens to wage war aon another country, while our "other" government just watched?
Am I missing something here? I'd like to know if the Hezbollah took over Lebanon or what?
I've heard that the United Nations (worthless corrupt bunch that probably had more to do with letting this escalate over the years than anyone else) asked the Hezbollah to disarm (another worthless resolution that they can't enforce) and also that  Lebanon asked them to cool it...
So what gives here?
Who 's in charge over there?
If we had a militray group here launching rockets into another country...and I was a citizen watching it happen, I'd fully expect my neighborhood to be blown to bits...and If I'm not of mind to stop bozo's in my neighborhood myself when my main government can't or won't...i'd deserve it.
I'd be wanting to take out my worthless government after I delt with with the neighborhood problem too.

So someone explain it to me please...I might not have a handle how things work over there, or know all the details.