Sherman quote

[Shorty]

"The soldiers and people of the South entertained an undue fear of our western men, and invented such ghostlike stories of our progress through Georgia that they were scared by their own inventions...this was a power, and I intended to utilize it."

What was he talking about?  Who were those "western men"?

[naedlaen]

Sherman was leading the western portion of the Northern army, as opposed to the Army of the Potomac.  The western troops where basically all the troops that were originally west of the mountains and moved east during the war.

Neal

[Shorty]

Naedlean,
It's that simple?  I guess, maybe, the vet's of Shiloh and Chickamauga, etc. might have a certain aura of invincibility.

[wncchester]

Sherman'a western army had earned its reputation as  callous and somewhat out of control because of Sherman himself.  He is the one who coined the phrase "war is hell" and then went out to prove it in methods compariable to Gengis Kahn.  His offical policy was to ruin and destroy the lands under his control so as to leave the residents in despair and starvation.  His western troops were more brutal than Northeasterers by their more recent experience with the Indian wars and knew much of the rape and wanton destruction waged in Kansas and Missouri infighting.  Sherman refered to that earned nature of his men and he used them to effect his desires in his actions in Georgia and the Carolinas. 

Sherman's mid-South march is the direct cause of the deep resentments that still reside in many otherwise patrotic Southerners today.  It is a resentment born  of what was done to literally starve and burn homes and even the means of making a subsistance living in much of the South.  It resulted in the deaths of many women, children and infants, elderly and infirm, and many blacks too, many rapes and deaths from shootings and starvation and sickness in his massive march of destruction through the middle of the South.  (This is also true, but to a smaller degree, of Sheridan's burn-it-down campaign in Virginia.)  But few of today's "historians" and  smug Northerners seem to understand the deep hatred those brutal actions against helpless civilian populations generated  in Southerners.   Russians and Poles and Jews and Koreans and Chinese have a residual hatred of the NAZIs and Japs too, for much the same reasons, and no has to ask they why, do they?

Some historians have defended Sherman and Sheridan's actions, saying it was just done to end the war sooner.  Yeah, but other "warriors" have used that to justify their brutality too.  Remember anything about WWII?  Our military killed many civilians in WWII but they did it from a distance, without looking the victims in the eyes as they did it with cannon and planes.  The Japs and Nazis killed personally and cold bloodedly while looking at the helpless people they were killing and starving; so did Sherman's army.  His fighting was like the vandals who destroyed Rome and all they touched, nothing noble about it.  'Nuff said.

[nabob]

So when the American Indian tells us that we need to pay reparations for wrongs done to them, or when blacks demand payment for the evils of the period of slavery in this country, you are on board with them as well?

After a while, it is time to stop living in the past.

[wncchester]

Nabob, I'm not sure if your question is directed to me or not.  If not, ignore this;  if so, how do you read into my post a desire for compensation for the sad events of so long ago?

Let me point out that the topic here is the "War of Northern Agression" and the specific thread question referenced a quote attributed to Sherman.  I addressed that question and the issues arising from it only in sufficent detail to make my response understandable, hopefully, to those who have no real concept of the events of Sherman's march through the South.   I did not mention a request for any foolish notions such as "reperations" to a wronged people now long dead and buried, nor would I suggest such silliness be considered.   

Sorry if I confused you.

[nabob]

The topic is the Civil War. Calling it the "War of Northern Aggression" is part of the continuation of hatred and bitterness that many people seem to enjoy way too much. Some groups within the black community chew over old hurts and conclude the injustices done to their ancestors should be redressed by money. You seem to want to chew over old hurts as well, so I wondered if you would support their preferred method of redress.

Sherman's march through Georgia happened nearly 150 years ago. Time to let it go, I think. Being bitter about things that happened to one's ancestors perpetuates the sort of victimization that, while comforting, is silly.

Anyone who compares Sherman to Genghis Khan has not read enough about Genghis Khan. The scale of devastation wrought by Timuchin was several orders of magnitude greater than anything Sherman did. Sherman was bad, no doubt. Timuchin was a catastrophe. His method of warfare so devastated entire regions that it has taken more than half a millennium for the residents to start recovering. He had a similar effect on Islam itself. Many who study the history of Islam conclude that it was the devastation wrought by Timuchin that led to the extreme conservatism and unwillingness to tolerate dissent characterizes Islam to this day. Sherman was no Timuchin.

I've no desire to get into a spitting match, so I'll leave you the last word. It just seems that there are a great many people who carry around vast amounts of anger and bitterness on this forum. I'm not an angry or bitter person by nature so I don't understand or agree with those that are.

[S.S.]

I have to put in in a few cents here.
My family was decimated during the civil war and with the
exception of my Great Grand Father on my mothers side
they were non-combatants. Sherman and his troops were murderers
who burned women and children to death in their homes,
Shooting them down if they tried to escape the flames!
They shot men down in the fields white and black so I do not and
will not ever see him as any kind of a hero in this country.
I would love to see him tried posthumously for war crimes and
crimes against humanity.. He committed Genocide plain and simple.
My families holdings were stolen after the war by carpetbaggers
from the north. My family in no way ever held any slaves !
But They paid the price none the less. AM I hostile, You Better Believe IT.
I read the AMERICAN history books that are published by NORTHERN
publishers, and it makes me want to puke. The Northerners came into the South
Like Conquering Heroes, They stole everything they could carry away.
Raped the women and young girls, Killed other Children!
I see what the North did as similar to what the Nazis did in Poland.
With one exception ! The Jewish community is now at least getting some of the Stolen
possessions back. It is truly a shame to me that our Southern Hero's and defenders ran out of ammunition To shoot the invading armies with. The North took 2/3 of the Casualties in the war.
I hate it that it wasn't 95 or 100%.  They were Looters, Thieves, rapists and murderers and to me deserved to be shot down like rabid dogs. Especially Sherman !
It was almost 150 years ago, Get over it Right
Not Me !!!
 

[clodbuster]

S.Sumner  life must be a bitch carrying around all that hate.

[S.S.]

When I see How the South is portrayed in modern history
Books, Yes, it does piss me off.
When I know how much easier my life would have been if the Yankees
would have stayed up north and not stole my family's property, Yes it does piss me off !
When I know how much stuff the Northerners stole from the South.
Yes, it does piss me off. Most of the Land they stole had been in my family
since the Mid. 1700's. They were merchants, Not Slave Holders.
I almost wish I would have been there to help my Great Grandfather
shoot the invaders when they came in. I have his records from Wright's Legion,
and apparently he really did his part at ridding the South of them!
Lots of the Northern thieves got to stay in the South permanently because of him !

[ncmountainman]

Sherman should have ate a bullet while his army was being ambushed in the swamps outside Vicksburg where after failing in his attempt to take the city he wrote the shortest report of the war "I reached my objective at the appointed time, attacked and lost". Obviously even though he was already a power hungry, mean, agressive type of man he was very much motivated to have his revenge on the south after his humiliating defeat in Mississippi.

[Telahnay's g'son]

S.Sumner  life must be a bitch carrying around all that hate.

Ask any good Irish Catholic or Highlander Scot how they truly feel about the English and you'll have a baseline for comparison.  But not to worry as it's only been 800 years and even the Irish & English are finally talking to each other. 

North Alabama & middle Tennessee were likely the most heavily industrialized areas of the south and voted against secession but were overruled by the rest of their state(s) delegates.  The "scorched earth" policy formally adopted by Lincoln & Sherman was a designed plan to complete the devastation of the south economically as in April of 1865 roughly 70% of the civilian population in this area was listed at starvation according to the yankee records.  It resembled Bosnia or 1945 Germany in magnitude of destruction and did not even begin to recover until FDR's New Deal was implemented.

In the last 30+ years southern politicians figured out how to further the "new south" even more.  They went overseas and established strategic alliances with foreign corporations that saw the value in southern labor.  Ergo, German auto plants in Carolina & Alabama with Japanese ones in Tennessee & Kentucky and British steel mills in Alabama, etc.  This would likely have been (albeit delayed by reconstruction) an additional result of a southern victory as well with our commerce continuing (as it largely was pre-1861) with overseas partners.  Remember, the cotton tariffs et. al. were only working to a limited degree in hampering the south (economically) so things HAD to be escalated to all out war for the north to fully implement it's grand scheme.

You see, the north had (and even today to a degree, still has) a healthy fear of the south "rising again" and one of the primary purposes of "reconstruction" was to re-colonize the south into a state of perpetual submission to the north.  This "boot on the neck" policy is where a large degree of animosity still finds it's catalyst even today.  Most all southerners love their country but distrust the federal government and the "yankee" mentality for which it stands.

It all goes back to the proximate cause for the Civil War (however as George Carlin said, there wasn't anything "civil" about it) or better known to people of my country as The War of Northern Aggression was MONEY/WEALTH.  In 1861 guess what was the largest single asset (monetary value) in this country.  It was slaves as they were "worth" more than all of the other assets of this country (save the land itself) combined. 

The north had to provoke hostilities so they could play the part of savior and claim the moral high road and thus complete the empire building goals so orchestrated by the wealthy individuals that have been running this nation ever since.  However, if you (or anyone) think(s) the yankee was a black man's friend consider that the first race riot in this nation occurred in NYC during 1862 when over 100 black folks were murdered by rampaging white yankees.

I've stated it before and it's well worth saying again, the yankee attitude is by far the major reason 99.44% of the rest of the world hates our guts and would love nothing more than to see us go down in flames.

[ncmountainman]

Amen.
Congradulations you really do know your subject and Im getting better educated all the time.

Germany felt the yankee boot heel on their neck along with the boot heels of the rest of the first war allies with The Versailles Treaty and rose with their mutually empowering relationship with Hitler to strike back. Im not comparing the south with Nazi Germany but the result of the proud German people being reduced to ruin and desperation by the essentially noncaring governments of the allies did have catastrophic results for the world and they said back then that Germany never learns! How ironic that the most popular allied tank had the name Sherman.

I believe the yankee mentality is a large part of the reason America is now a major target for terrorism. For many years now the Arabs along with so many other nations have seen America as being a big fat immoral obnoxious bully and burned our flag while teaching their children to hate us and only to see the image that America puts out instead of seeing the average not so wealthy American who is in many ways not so different from the average person there who still loves his simple life and family.

My favorite George Carlin joke is the one about Sherman and the Stone Mountain Rebel. "Its a trick Gereral theres two of them!". Hee Hee   

[6Shooter]

The topic is the Civil War. Calling it the "War of Northern Aggression" is part of the continuation of hatred and bitterness that many people seem to enjoy way too much.

Well, that's exactly what it was, a war of northern aggression. A better description of the war is what Jackson called it, the second war of independence.

 I don't know from where you come but, trying to make it sound nice or saying  it's been so long, forget about it, is not going to make what happened to the people any less terrible.  Some of us are alittle closer to the damage than you are.

[ironfoot]

The Rebellion to Preserve Slavery caused the deaths of many who did not deserve to die. Too bad so many of them were northern farm kids who had to die for their country. Some northerners still have resentment too.

[wncchester]

Those poor northern farm boys died to have the rich northern industrailists and textile mill owners retain control of the South's produce.  They had done if for years thru taxes and tariffs but the South finally determined not to to be subdued any longer and left the Union.  The fat cats didn't want that to happen so they paid for the election of politiicians who would attack the South to maintain the status quo. 

Wars are economic, not political as such, and the side with the greatest power writes the history.  In the 1861-64 war the fat cats got plenty rich selling war materials so they won, either way.  Sadly, few people actually know why and how that war began so the rich perpetrators got away with it, as usual.

[Telahnay's g'son]

The Rebellion to Preserve Slavery caused the deaths of many who did not deserve to die. Too bad so many of them were northern farm kids who had to die for their country. Some northerners still have resentment too.

UR right in that many a good and decent northern farm boy died needlessly often as a result of incompetence and/or cowardice by their commanders.  Cold Harbor is only one glaring example of the blunders and cluster***s that cost so many lives on the north's back.

However, one wonders why those boys didn't just stand up and say heck no we're not fighting for the fat cats or even threaten secession just like NYC did.  And no, I don't believe it was due to any great love of their country as many were/shudda been aware of what was the real story.

[6Shooter]

However, one wonders why those boys didn't just stand up and say heck no we're not fighting for the fat cats or even threaten secession just like NYC did.  And no, I don't believe it was due to any great love of their country as many were/shudda been aware of what was the real story.

 This is why there are so many hard feelings about this subject, too many people are still ignorant of the truth of the matter.
 It sounds nice and may make some feel better to wallow in that ignorance but that doesn't help anything except the internet message boards.

[WolfBrother]

Sherman'a western army had earned its reputation as  callous and somewhat out of control because of Sherman himself.  He is the one who coined the phrase "war is hell" and then went out to prove it in methods compariable to Gengis Kahn.

Have ancestors who were on both sides at Gettysburg.  I'm a Texan who is seeing his country and State being overrun again.

The Sherman quote needs to be quoted in full or it is liable to be mis-quoted or used out of context.

The quote is:

I am tired and sick of war.  It's glory is all moonshine.
It is only those who neither fired a shot nor heard the shrieks and groans of the wounded who cry aloud for blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
War is Hell.

Sherman as a man hated war.  Sherman as a General, did what he did to end the war as soon as he could. 

It wasn't pretty, it wasn't nice, it wasn't good. 
What is was, was effective.

It ripped the guts out of a large area of the South and made it significantly harder for the South to continue.

Had we done to Mogadishu or Iraq what Sherman did to the South, I suspect Iran would not be quite as bold as it has been.

[masek77]

It seems to me absurd to believe that the south fought for slavery.

Considering historically how hard it is to get Americans to fight in ANY war, how come an estimated 95% of the Confederate soldiers came from families that did not own slaves? Does anybody with a brain actually believe that these people laid down their lives just so a wealthy few could have access to property?

In every war in history, the victor has had the luxury of writing the history books about that war and claiming the moral high ground with respect to that war. This war was no different. Look at WWII. We made a big deal about how evil Hitler was, and you constantly hear about the millions of innocent (estimated at about 10 million, including 6 million jews) people he killed. Yet we completely ignored Stalin killing an estimated 30 million civilians during the war, plus untold millions after the war. Im not saying Hitler was a good guy or anything. Im just saying history has placed a lot of blame on one person and completely ignored the actions of others.

Think for yourselves people. Just because a book says one thing or another doesnt mean its true.

[wncchester]

Well, I thought someone would give his thoughts on the program the History Channel did last week on Sherman's march.  It was only prettied up a little.  They didn't dwell on the unnecessary hardships his actions caused in his "glorious" march against women and children while opposed with a few scatterings of old men and boys. 

Perhaps Sherman's callousness was best represented by the act of cutting a pontoon  bridge to separate hundreds of black men from their families, resulting in the drowning of many blacks who strove to recross the waters at that point.

As bad as the effects of Sherman's revenge march was, it caused only a part of the bitter feelings the South had afterward.  MOST of that long simmering anger was due to the vast outrages of  the North's "Reconstruction" period of martial occupation that followed the war. 

There was no "Marshal Plan" for the demolished South's industry, instead there was a long term of a calculated financial rape of destitute  people, white and black.

[ironfoot]

Perhaps Sherman's callousness was best represented by the act of cutting a pontoon  bridge to separate hundreds of black men from their families, resulting in the drowning of many blacks who strove to recross the waters at that point.

Sherman's callousness? It wasn't Sherman the slaves were afraid of. It was that they were being left at the mercy of Confederate murderers. Sherman's army simply couldn't accommodate all of those slaves trying to flee Confederate butchers.

[wncchester]

Iron my friend, there is not a shred of truth in that post. 

Note that I mentioned the blacks following Sherman were trying to "recross" the river, not get across to escape any retribution from Southerners.  The back men were close on the army's heels, they being a work force for the troops.  Their women and children followed further back and were cut off by the army destroying the pontoon bridge.  Men jumped into the flowing water in a desperate attempt to rejoin their families.  Many were drowned but it was not a terrorized attempt to escape from the South. 

Dd Sherman care?  He knew "war is hell" and made it so - for innocents.  Was that bridige cut before the trailing black families could cross in order to shorten the war?  Or perhaps he was just callous to innocent human misery in the South?  Your call on that.  But it is clear the blacks were in no deadly fear of southerners.

Having been born and grew up in the rural deep South I know the attitudes and relationships that prevailed between poor blacks and poor whites during the 40s and 50s.  We did not mix as a normal course of life - just as Northerners don't mix today - but there was an atmosphere of mutual respect and help was given to those in need.  Sadly, most such assistance has vanished since the Northern government and ignorant do-gooders have attempted to make things all better here, wanting to make southern race relations as good as it was/is in the North! 

That plan has been pretty effective too, much of the south is now as bad for blacks as the north. We NOW have a significant level of enmity that has nothing to do with Southerners as such.  Mostly it is based on the blacks being taught in government schools and on TV that all of their "problems" are because of "whitey".  Many blacks now want to live "free" as a life style entitlement, meaning without effort or work but without a loss of luxury.  That mindset hasn't done anyone any good, black or white, North or South.  Well, ok, it works pretty well for Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton.

In the late 50s and early 60s in the  USAF in Biloxi, MS, I learned from black friends that in their Northern home states they had been told all about how poorly they would be treated in public down south.   ALL of them eventually said, in various words, that they actually felt more comfortable on unfamiliar southern streets than they did in northern cities!  ....Yeah, it surprised me too! 

Those blacks who followed Sherman wanted to go north because of how they hoped their lives would be there.  But the blacks behind Sherman weren't in fear of their lives from southerners.  Those poor drowned men just wanted across that river and return to their families on the other - Southern - side.  Your story is a fiction, Northern propaganda invented to bolster egos and personal prejudices.

The hordes of blacks who eventually got North certainly did not find a promised land after all.  In many respects they found they were worst off in the North because they had no value there.  Most were unskilled so they were unwanted and all were totally expendable, just like the Irish.  Many freed blacks starved or died from illness and exposure. Unlike in the South, few white Northerners were willing to lend a hand to those blacks struggling to survive. 

Don't believe me?  Check the historical record of racial peace, harmony and mutual respect in the North if you need proof of my observations.   There are valid reasons for the record of racial hatred and smoldering resentments in the North.  While media and liberal racial focus has always been on the South, fact is the  bloodiest, most destructive and bitter race riots of the 60s-70s were in the North! 

My black AF buddies told me things that Northern myths have not told you!

[steelshooter68]

wnchstr......AMEN BROTHER!

[wncchester]

Thanks Steel, bro.  Hey, are YOU black?

[steelshooter68]

Last I checked,I am not.
 
Might also be interesting to note, since the subject is Sherman,that no foreign country the US ever invaded was ever treated as harshly in the aftermath, as the south was during "Reconstruction".There are places along Sherman's route to the sea, where only a placard stands as a reminder of where an entire town stood,now merely a sign in the middle of nowhere. Sheridan was no better.Some of both men's personal correspondence gives a detailed look into what kind of men they truly were.

[rock-steady]

Reading through this thread brings some words from the great Southern bard Tom Petty to mind:
Even before our Fathers Fathers
They called us all Rebels
Burned our crops and left our cities leveled
I still see the eyes
of them blue-bellied devils...

I'll never forget.

[ironfoot]

wncc
Where did you get your information from?

[ironfoot]

Reading through this thread brings some words from the great Southern bard Tom Petty to mind:
Even before our Fathers Fathers
They called us all Rebels
Burned our crops and left our cities leveled
I still see the eyes
of them blue-bellied devils...

I'll never forget.

YOU will never forget? YOU were never there. Any wrongs perpetrated on your ancestors were trivial compared to the institution of slavery. Should the blacks never forget? How about the Indians, or the Mexicans? Should Germans and Iraqis have vendettas against your great grandchildren?

[ironfoot]

Some Mexicans will never forget:
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=NzdhZjFjMzNiMGFmM2U0MTZiMjUyZGU0MTM4MWMxZDU=

Here is an excerpt:

"Do you remember what happened in Guadalajara in 2004 during an Olympics-qualification soccer match between the U.S. and Mexico? The stadium erupted in boos during the playing of “The Star-Spangled Banner.” Fans yelled “Osama! Osama!” as the U.S. was eliminated by Mexico.
The following year, in March 2005, Mexican soccer fans again cheered the al Qaeda mastermind’s name at a World Cup qualifier. ESPN reported the audience again booed and whistled during the U.S. national anthem, and plastic bags filled with urine were reportedly tossed on American players.
One Mexican fan told the Christian Science Monitor: “‘Every schoolboy knows about 1848. . . . When they robbed our territory,’ referring to when Texas, California and New Mexico were annexed to the U.S. as part of a peace treaty ending the war between the two countries, ‘that was the beginning.’“