Author Topic: What powder to use?  (Read 1608 times)

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Offline Kart29

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What powder to use?
« on: August 31, 2006, 05:18:39 AM »
I sent my SB2 frame in for fitting of a huntsman muzzleloader barrel a couple of weeks ago.  I ordered the 24" stainless barrel.  So, I've been doing a little research on what to shoot out of it.

Wow!  Things have changed since I built my old CVA Kentucky Rifle about 20 years ago.  Back then you had your choice of black powder or Pyrodex and round balls or conicals.  That was about it.  Now I find out there are alot more option with different black powder substitutes and sabots and all.

I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick to shooting lead conicals rather than sabots.  I just like the idea of slow heavy bullets rather than sabots.

But what are the pros and cons of different powders?  I would only consider something readily commercially available.  So what does that leave me?

Black powder
Pryodex
777
Black Mag 3

I suppose I would favor reliability, ease of use and clean up over maximum velocity - at least if accuracy is acceptable with all powders.  Loose powder is not a problem for me so I have no reason to favor the pellets.

What can you tell me about these powders and why would I or why would I not want to choose one over the other?

Offline Keith Lewis

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2006, 08:39:51 AM »
Black Powder and Pyrodex are still good powders. They are both proven and have a long history. The main problem is that they are both quite dirty. If swabing between shots is not a big thing and you can live with it they will both do great, especially with the heavier conicals. Tripple seven I will have to pass on judgement as it makes such a crud ring in my stainless Omega I have not tried it in my Huntsman yet (it is in the test sequence once the weather cools down a little). Others may be able to give you better data. Black Mag'3 works great in my Omega with 300gr. sabot/bullets or lighter. I have not shot a lot with heavier bullets. Ascorbic acid based powders (BM3, APP, Shockey Gold, Goex Pinnacle) are getting a lot of comments that they do not perform well with the heavier bullets. I personally have not tried that yet. I am considering heavier bullets for elk this year although 300 gr. bullets have worked on them in the past. They usually do not collapse on impact with those bullets and go several hundred yards before bleeding out. I would like once to have an elk drop on impact like the ones they show on the tv shows. I try to shoot them where I can get to them as I hunt alone and am over 65 so packing a long distance is a "drag" (if you excuse the pun). I am seriously considering using the Huntsman as my primary rifle this year instead of the Omega if it will shoot heavy  bullets with 777 and allow at least one or two reloads without a swab. The Omega will only do that with Black Mag'3 and may not shoot the heavy bullets with it. My huntsman was a used gun when I got it (picked it up by trading a Traditions Pursuit LT with scope for the Huntsman without a scope even trade). I think I got the better of the deal. I replaced the wood with synthetic stock and added a Simmons pro-diamond 1.5-5 shotgun scope which is what I have on the Omega and have been impressed with the performance of the scope. The synthetic has enough stock rise to work better with the scope as it has to be on a medium rise ring to clear the hammer. I also bought the .25ACP conversion breechplug to eliminate the plastic things. I have the same type breechplug on the Omega and like it better than trying to handle the 209 primers when hunting. Sorry about the length but thought some of this might come in handy for you.

Offline Busta

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2006, 09:03:40 AM »
I'm pretty sure I'm going to stick to shooting lead conicals rather than sabots.  I just like the idea of slow heavy bullets rather than sabots.

But what are the pros and cons of different powders?  I would only consider something readily commercially available.  So what does that leave me?

Black powder
Pryodex
777
Black Mag 3

I suppose I would favor reliability, ease of use and clean up over maximum velocity - at least if accuracy is acceptable with all powders.  Loose powder is not a problem for me so I have no reason to favor the pellets.

What can you tell me about these powders and why would I or why would I not want to choose one over the other?

Kart29,

Congratulations on the Huntsman barrel! If you want to shoot heavy conicals, 430 to 460 grain work best in my 24" SS barrel. Bull Shop or No Excuses in the .503" diameter work excellent. Slip fit (easy loading without swabbing just like my Whites) with slight engraving and stays on the charge. These arent like the old Buffalo Bullets that you needed a mallet to get started down your bore. If you have never shot slip fit conicals, you haven't lived.

The powder that will work best IMO would be 777 in either FFG or my preference for conicals FFFG. Anywhere from 70 to 90 grains will be enough, I took my elk last year with a 430 grain White Super Slug (obsolete) and 80 grains by volume (tapped and settled) 777 FFFG. The 460 grain No Excuses and Bull Shop will also shoot very well with the same powder.

Black Mag'3 powder is not as available, more expensive, and not worth a hoot for conicals in my and others experiences. I really like the powder for light saboted bullets, but not for conicals. BM'3 is a progressive powder and builds pressure as the bullet moves down the barrel, therefore not a good choice for conicals and also will blow out your primer carriers with heavy lead. You want a fast powder when shooting conicals, because you need the upset to belly the lead out into the grooves in the rifling (obturate). I also use a fiber gasket wad between powder and bullet for best accuracy.
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Offline zermatt7

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2006, 05:27:57 AM »
Busta...

Could you give me a little more detail on the .503 Conicals you reccomend, ie exactly which ones performed the best with what loads and where to get them ?

Sorry IF I seem a little slow, I'm an OHIO STATE RANKED #1 IN THE WORLD ;D ;D ;D  ALUMNUS

Thanks,
Eric

Offline Busta

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2006, 07:43:58 AM »
zermatt7,

The No Excuses bullets are an excellent choice and you can't beat the way Dave does business. You either e-mail him your order or call him, talking directly to him........he then ships your order to you with an invoice........when you receive your order, you send him the check. It don't get much easier than that. How many companies will send you your order before they receive their payment, nowadays? If you order his, make sure you get the standard .503" 460 grain bullets. Don't special order the .500", they will be too small in diameter for the Huntsman. They are made for Thompsons, CVA's etc., that have tighter .500" bores. Also, if you order two boxes, the shipping will only be like a dollar more than one box which is another way to save a little per bullet. Excellent bullets from an outstanding guy.

http://members.aol.com/noexcusesb/page3.html

Bullshop Bullets are another outstanding bullet and can be ordered in several weights, but remember to check you owners manual for maximum loads for conicals. My Whites will shoot anything up to 600+ grains, but my '03 Huntsman manual says 470 grains for maximum conical load. Dan at Bullshop will give you a very good deal, but you place your order and send payment before any bullets are shipped. Guys that shoot alot and have established a relationship with Dan MIGHT have different arrangement. His prices are very good and I don't think you will find a better deal out there. He ships the bullets in a flat rate box, with extra care in packaging. You will want to call in your order or e-mail, making sure to order PURE LEAD for muzzleloaders in .503" with #2 lube. The "460 MT NEx" bullet is a clone of the 460 grain No Excuses bullet listed above and would be my recommendation if you buy from Bullshop. He has TONS of other bullets, as he normally caters to the Cowboy Action Shooters. You can order 400 grain through 620 grain bullets for the .50 calibers. If your bore is the same as mine the .503" are the best as far as "slip fit". You would not want to go any smaller, but might want to order some in the .5035" or .504" range if you like a tighter fit. Usually you give up accuracy when you go with tighter bullets.

Dans (Bullshop) site needs some updating to reflect the muzzleloader bullets that he is now making, but I think he has been so busy making bullets he don't have time. Just make sure to call your first order so you know exactly what he has to offer. The prices on his site are for the alloyy bullets he produces and the pure lead muzzleloader bullets will be a little higher, but still the best deal on the planet. Remember PURE LEAD, #2 LUBE, sized to .503" (or if you slug your barrel about .001" bigger than your land to land measurement, unless you hunt on a fouled bore). These bullet will obturate (belly out) into the grooves of your rifling upon upset, that is why you want a fast powder like FFFG to essentially SPANK the bullet. You can load and shoot these bullets all day without swabbing your bore. Trust me, you won't be able to wipe the grin off your face for several days, maybe never. ;D

It just don't get no better than shooting "slip fit conicals, and yes you can load all day with only a finger or two on the rod. Start out around 70 grains of powder and work up, 777 FFFG or FFg is my first choice. I use 80 grains by volume of 777 FFFG, by first over filling my powder measure, then tapping 10 times (snapping the measure with my finger)  and settling the charge, then scraping clean accross the top. This is probably more like 85 grains+ of powder if just thrown. I also use a .518" diameter, .060" thick fiber gasket wad between the charge and bullet. I get these from Cabelas, they are the KEY to consistant accuracy.

http://bullshop.gunloads.com/prices.html
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Offline culprit

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2006, 02:11:04 PM »
Busta...

Could you give me a little more detail on the .503 Conicals you reccomend, ie exactly which ones performed the best with what loads and where to get them ?

Sorry IF I seem a little slow, I'm an OHIO STATE RANKED #1 IN THE WORLD ;D ;D ;D  ALUMNUS

Thanks,
Eric

Eric,
GO BUCKS!!!   I completed my Navy ROTC program there.

My thoughts on powder....   I prefer 777.  Has a snappy, quicker burn than the others I've tried and cleans up well.  (Minus the crud ring in the barrel.)
So far.. 350grn Maxi-hunter, 90 grns T7.




Offline Kart29

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2006, 05:59:23 AM »
Quote
  I also use a .518" diameter, .060" thick fiber gasket wad between the charge and bullet. I get these from Cabelas, they are the KEY to consistant accuracy.
 

I've looked on Cabela's website and not found the fiber gasket wad.  Can you provide a link or say what catagory in which they are found?


Also, on an unrelated note.  I have a couple of old brass powder measures but I don't know how much powder they hold.  Is there a way I can find this out?  I have a powder scale that would measure the powder weight the measures throw, but I understand black powder and substitutes are measured by volume, not weight.   Is there any kind of VMD conversion tables like there is with smokeless powders?

Offline zermatt7

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2006, 06:37:34 AM »
KART29,

IMHO and  Experience...With the huntsman barrel on order go ahead now and order...
1.  extra breeh plug
2.  extra breech plug tool
3 . the knurled hammer thumb extension thing  ( Cabelas used to have a two sided one )
4.  at least one  or two extra packs of the orange 209 primer holders
5.  twice as many packs of good quality patches as you think you'll need

All these you can get from H&R / Nef /Marlin

6. Get an EXTRA good full length ram rod...fiberglass etc.

7. Then do a search here for the LOWEST power 209 primers you can get...I use Remington 209-4 Pemier Primiers for 410 shot guns.

8. And last but not least get some good choke tube lube.....and then do a search here on how to prevent / unstick a   frozen breech plug.

9. Do a serch here or ask some one here about the "O-RING TRICK"

Then grasshopper you will be ready for the range !!!

Offline Busta

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2006, 11:14:37 AM »
Kart29,

The wads were bought at the Cabelas Store, they might not have them available through mail order. They are made for Black Powder Cartridge reloading, they are sold in 1000's for about $17. You can get them made by other manufacturers. The ones I have are made by Sagebrush in Sidney, NE I believe, and that is also where the Headquarters of Cabelas is. Mine have the Cabelas name on them but I am pretty sure Sagebrush makes them. Others use the bore buttons or felt wads the same way. If you had some gasket material and a .510-.518" hole punch, you could make some up and try them. I'm thinking these are just some waste product from a company that makes gaskets, probably just holes that were punched out of gaskets for 1/2" bolts to go through and someone is making a killing off of them. Just wish it was me. ;D

Sagebrush site.
http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/About.htm

Scroll down to Over Powder Wads. I use this size (.060 50 cal.=.518 dia ~ Item# S-26518) but they also offer it in .030" thick.
http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/ShootingProducts.htm

Pictures: These are identical to the ones I buy at Cabelas.
http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/images/WADS.jpg
http://www.sagebrushproducts.com/images/vegewad.jpg


Some more:
Scroll down to "WAD-510-V" .510" diameter Vegetable Fiber Wad, ideal for .50 caliber rifles, .062" thick, 1000  in this link, $12.95/1000. Very close to the ones I have.
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/(S(h5ocn3mkwqvcoj45faqp5huq))/categories/tableList.aspx?catId=2&subId=37&styleId=118&PageSize=25&Page=5

Circle Fly
http://www.circlefly.com/
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Offline zermatt7

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2006, 12:09:32 PM »
Thompson Center and Cheaper Than Dirt have bore buttons...but they are nowhere near as cheap $ as Busta's source.....more like $8.oo plus shipping for a pack of 50

Offline darat100

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Re: What powder to use?
« Reply #10 on: September 08, 2006, 04:17:58 AM »
Wow

I must have really gotten lucky.  My huntsman shoots cloverleaf groups at 50 yards with open sights with 777 and 297gr sabbots.  I have never been happier with a gun including my other handis.  With Pyrodex it did well, but with the quicker 777, it is almost like a modern cartridge.  No delay at all.  You might want to try something simple first, then work from there.

I will say this, however.  You do want to get another rod.  I bought a fiberglass rod to use when shooting other than in the field.  The extension rod will work in an emergency (for those who miss)  ;D  but if you use it much, you will definately break it.

Good luck