Author Topic: NEF for a kids gun (Read 1921 times)

Slasher · « **on:** August 31, 2006, 10:19:14 AM »

I am looking at getting one for my boy to hunt deer with...

On one hand I was thinking about just getting a collapsible stock for my AR-15 and ingleloading the mag... But The operation seems to be a lil much for a youngin to start out with... SO then i started looking for a rifle that can shoot 357 magnum... whew they have become collectible it seems now that WIN shuttered their doors....

I wish NEF had a youth in .357 magnum... but they do have the barrels... but dont want to have to wait...

But looking at the 243 youth as the 223 is the slow twist...

What is everyones experience in kids and these guns? Pretty user friendly? kick factor? Kids able to master the hammer gun safety factor okay???

Datil · « **Reply #1 on:** August 31, 2006, 11:16:46 AM »

Slasher, Welcome to wonder world of Handi-holics!
You might look at the 30-30 Not that bad of recoil.
I don't understand NEF for stop making the 357 Mag
or 357 Maxmums, selling like hoy cakes, Hard to find
before they stop, then they started making just Barrels.
Good luck Marv.

cheatermk3 · « **Reply #2 on:** August 31, 2006, 11:41:04 AM »

Welcome

The operation of the Handirifle makes it an ideal choice for a youngster's first hunting rifle.

If you're concerned about recoil, the 44mag version is available and a better choice, IMHO, than the 357.

It would help to know your son's stature and strength level.

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #3 on:** August 31, 2006, 12:08:05 PM »

The single shot hammer guns are great to start kids with , you can tell at a glance that it is in a safe poshion , and with the transfer bar it keeps the hammer off the firing pin just in case .

The 30/30 would be my first choice and the 44 mag would be number two, both will do a wonderful job on deer size game with little recoil .

Slasher · « **Reply #4 on:** August 31, 2006, 12:17:25 PM »

well he's 7, but a 60 lb bean pole... As for the .44... My experience has been they kick as much as 30/30... And .357 is abou half of that!!!

The 357 is a 75-100 yd deer gun here, but My last 5 deer taken were inside 35 yds... So 357 is plenty of gun in these parts... I just think th lightest kicking gun that will adequately do the job is Better!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #5 on:** August 31, 2006, 12:25:48 PM »

If it's legal in your state, I wouldn't overlook the .223 with good shot placement and good bullets like the 64gr Win PP, 60gr Nosler Partition or 63gr Sierra...

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,96979.msg1098243570.html#msg1098243570

Dillohide · « **Reply #6 on:** August 31, 2006, 06:52:41 PM »

Remington makes Managed-Recoil 125 grain factory ammo in 30-30 with a muzzle velocity of 2175 fps and muzzle energy of 1313 ft lbs. Supposedly with 50% less recoil than the regular 150/170 grain bullets. That muzzle velocity is about the same as a 170 flat point so I believe it. Midway has these for $14.99 a box.

warf73 · « **Reply #7 on:** August 31, 2006, 09:47:43 PM »

I got my son(11) a 7mm-08 and he loves it.
But if he had a choice he would rather shoot the 445SM instead.

Warf

Slasher · « **Reply #8 on:** September 01, 2006, 02:10:25 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on August 31, 2006, 12:25:48 PM

If it's legal in your state, I wouldn't overlook the .223 with good shot placement and good bullets like the 64gr Win PP, 60gr Nosler Partition or 63gr Sierra...

Tim

http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,96979.msg1098243570.html#msg1098243570

Yeah, Its legal here... But find some guns with the slower twist(NEF is 1;12) dont stabilize the heavier bullets too well...

At first, I put a 4x on my AR-15 and got some 60GRN Nosler partitions... I figured I would do all the operatiing and just let him take over once I put it into the window of the blind... but the LOP is too long and I think the safe operation is a lil too much on an auto for him (a lot of adults too...) I may just put a collapsible on it to overcome the LOP issue and only load the mag with one round at a time for this season... but he still needs a rifleto call his own and to learn to handle safely and the AR won't be it!!! I am thinking just to get him the .243 and if its too much, send it off and get the 357 barrel fitted.

Man, I may just want to borrow it when I see how short it is. Perfect lil tree stand gun 36" with a 22 in barrel... seems mighty handy in the thick stuff!!!

As for why the 357 over some of the larger rounds is recoil...

I have seen recoilitis play havock with too many adults and had an issue with it when I started out with a 270 as a kid... So ithink establishing fundamentals of good marksmanship is paramount to success both early in the process and years later...

Recoil energy of some of the rounds mentioned:

.223=3.2
.243= 8.8
.257=9.0
30/30=10.6
7mm/08=12.6
357=4.7
44=11.2

now I copied this data from chuck hawks website and they aren't equal because it varies by rifle weight... But I think all else being equal, .223 & 357 are in a different category than the others... But I think the .357 holds an edge at ranges under 75 yds where he'll be shooting... Another thing is I'd feel much better tracking a deer that had been shot with the 357 than the .223... As for the .44 mag, I shot a friends deerfield and was REALLY surprised as I was expecting pip sqeak kick outta the lil rifle, NOT!!!

I thank everyone for their help and appreciate the advice, Time to go shopping!!! As He's the oldest of three... I get my $$$ otta it!!!

Slasher

darat100 · « **Reply #9 on:** September 01, 2006, 02:35:27 AM »

Slasher

Another thing to think about. Add a little weight to the buttstock of any handi and it can tame the recoil a ton. I have always been very jumpy because like you I started out on a 30-06. I got tired of it and started shooting smaller calibers and then someone on here suggested trying the weight. It was Quick I think, but not sure. I filled the bolt hole with steel shot and started shooting. It works great. Really made a difference. I have slowly taken the shot out and now it doesn't bother me at all.

I am not trying to talk you out of the .357. I have a max and wish I had my magnum back. I wouldn't trade mine for the world. If you can find a maximum, it has very similar ballistics to the 30-30, but much less recoil. However, you don't have to shoot the max. You can shoot magnums through it too. Awesome gun.

Good Luck

Josh

PeterCartwright · « **Reply #10 on:** September 01, 2006, 03:30:18 AM »

I also started my son out with a handi-rifle in .30-30. I had a standard model and simply ordered a youth stock. The gun is scoped with an inexpensive Bushnell variable. The .30-30 barrel is heavy enough that even with 150 gr. factory loads, recoil is pretty minimal. Of course, if you handload, the Speer 130 gr. would make a dandy low recoil/highly effective deer round. Cartridge aside, I really love the mechanics of a handi for teaching a youngster the ins and outs of safe gun handling/hunting.

Your idea of using a .357 handi would also certainly work fine.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #11 on:** September 01, 2006, 05:09:33 AM »

Quote

Yeah, Its legal here... But find some guns with the slower twist(NEF is 1;12) dont stabilize the heavier bullets too well...

The Win 64grPP and Sierra 63gr #1370 both shoot well in the 1:12" Handi and are excellent deer bullets, would be worth a try in the AR. Of course a used .223 Handi with a cut down or youth stock would be a nice new "toy" for the lad!!

Tim

myarmor · « **Reply #12 on:** September 01, 2006, 06:20:18 AM »

I believe the 243 is an excellent choice for him or anyone getting into hunting. It doubles great for Varmints and Deer alike. I love my 30cals, but I also love the 6mms.
I'm surprised no one mentioned the 7.62x39 for the little guy. Recoil is very light at under 7.0lb and the reloading options are pretty decent. Just a thought.
http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7561&categorystring=9315***652***675***9016***
-Aaron

Gandalf · « **Reply #13 on:** September 01, 2006, 06:34:21 AM »

I sorta think, if a kid is old enough to hunt deer, then he/she is big enough to handle the recoil of a 30-30. That's a much more effective caliber for deer than a 357.

VTDW · « **Reply #14 on:** September 01, 2006, 10:30:13 AM »

My 10 year old granddaughter will be with me on Sunday morning shooting her NEF .243 Youth Model. I will let you know how she does. She will be shooting 70 (IIRC) gr bullets. I will get her used to shooting light loads and then, just before I take her hunting I will load em up a bit. She won't know the difference when she pulls the trigger at a hawg or deer.

Dave

tanoose · « **Reply #15 on:** September 03, 2006, 05:32:37 AM »

Has anyone hear ever tried the mercury recoil surpressor in the handi rifles. I myself have not but my friend swears that his 30/06 handi now kicks like his 243 . So i would think if you put one in a 30/30 there wouldn't be much recoil at all. I am going to try one in my 45/70 which now has a 1 pound bar in the stock and i will try the 16 oz surpressor . And they only cost around $35.00 + S&H When i do get it i will give a report on the actual recoil difference.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #16 on:** September 03, 2006, 05:37:15 AM »

I'll have one Tuesday, I ordered it over a week ago from MPC, they're a little slow in getting it shipped!!

Tim

http://www.mpcsports.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1372

tanoose · « **Reply #17 on:** September 03, 2006, 05:57:48 AM »

I'll order mine today Quick , what caliber will you put it on. And did you have to grind the Limb saver recoil pad you have or do they come pre-fit for the handis?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #18 on:** September 03, 2006, 06:13:56 AM »

I'm gonna put it on my peep sighted .45-70 with the mannlicher forend and BC butt stock for now, the will be a test to see how well the C&H works.

The small grind to fit works well on the laminated stocks, I have 3 fitted, I only grind the base to the contour of the butt, then taper the sides and leave the pad full for a bigger footprint or shoulderprint I should say!!

They're a bit sticky when mounting the rifle, but a little Slick Eez should fix that problem.

CWLongshot put a prefit Limbsaver on one of his rifles, it doesn't fit perfect, but works. The only prefit they make for H&Rs is for the 988 slug gun, it doesn't match the profile of any of my stocks. You can download their templates for comparison to see if any are close enough for you, the hole position will be the biggest problem with synthetic stocks.

Tim

http://www.limbsaver.com/limbsaver/firearms/precfit.aspx

http://www.brownells.com/aspx/ns/store/productdetail.aspx?p=7402

Coastwatcher · « **Reply #19 on:** September 03, 2006, 06:21:36 AM »

For a youth rifle I would definitely recommend the .243 or .30-30. I've never shot a 7mm-08 but it looks like a good choice as well. You can load them down for the youth today. Its amazing how fast they grow and want additional challenge. You then have the ability to load up to full throttle loads. Keeps your options open.

My $.02 CDN

cwlongshot · « **Reply #20 on:** September 03, 2006, 06:26:52 AM »

I am assuming because of his young age you will be with him 100% of the time. You know right over his shoulder when/as he squeezes the trigger on his first deer. That being said I would say with your correct guidance the 357 should be fine. You could also have it re chambered to the max later on as he grows.

I am not a big fan of starting people out with sub caliber guns, Like horse power, there is no replacement for size.
My step bro's dad started him out with a 410 for birds. Bad choice I feel. Today he is an awful wing shot with little effort put into getting better. MY dad started me out with a 20ga and lots of coaching, in very short order I bought my first 12ga and shot it much with light loads. Today I am a very good wing shot with a number of perfect scores on both the Trap and Sheet fields. I feel this is because I was afforded a better gun that was better able to do what I asked of it.

As for calibers and hunting big game. I would HATE for a new hunter to begin his hunting with a wounded non recovered animal. Simply because he/she didn't place their bullet correctly with a sub performing caliber. I have a number of friends and kids I have loaded for. Large bullets at reduced velocities work WAY better than sending a new shooter out with a 223!!! The idea of the reduced loads form the factory is a GREAT ONE!! It will allow new shooter to use dads gun yet not have all that recoil!!

BTW, the Handi is an excellent choice for a number of reasons. One of witch is that stocks are cheap. Buy what you want, chop the stock off and slip on a recoil pad. as they grow buy a new stock. If you want to be really slick, drill two holes in the butt from under the pad toward the receiver. Say about 4" deep. THEN chop off two or three 1" thick slices and SAVE THEM. As junior grows, re glue them back on with dowels inserted in the holes.

good luck,
CW

cwlongshot · « **Reply #21 on:** September 03, 2006, 06:32:33 AM »

Here is a shot of it:

Quick is correct, not perfect but plenty good enough if you do not have the coin or access to have one fitted correctly. they REALLY do a nice job reducing felt recoil.

HIGHLY recomended. I have them on both my wifes long guns and all mu big bore calibers!!

CW

tanoose · « **Reply #22 on:** September 03, 2006, 07:49:03 AM »

Thats ok i have a couple of rifles fitted like that ., as long as it works Thanks for the pics . Later Tanoose

cwlongshot · « **Reply #23 on:** September 03, 2006, 09:10:58 AM »

Thanks for the link QUICK. I dont know why that pic is so pixcilated....SO, I went outside and took some NEW ones!!

Just for a base line here is the factory ULTRA pad. It too dosent fit great:

Here is the SIMS PREFIT pad on my 500. A reg Lam stock:

Lastly here is a pic of a SIMS PREFIT on my USH:

While snapping the pics I noticed the pad seems to be breaking down??? Look at the top edge:

Here is a SIMS Grind to fit pad on one of my Marlins:

I hope these show what you where looking for...

CW

quickdtoo · « **Reply #24 on:** September 03, 2006, 09:23:34 AM »

CW, my Limbsavers do the same thing, they seem to stick to carpet and sorta melt or deteriorate at the contact point to a degree, I think the Slick Eez will end that issue, but I haven't got any of it yet, need to.

EDIT: I deleted my post to the shotgun forum post since it's a pic of the Ultraslug, not the .500 Handi with the prefit pad I was thinkin of.

Tim

Busta · « **Reply #25 on:** September 03, 2006, 10:07:30 AM »

Thanks for the pics CW. That is plenty close enough for the woods, and I don't think the deer will complain one bit.

A guy could mark the custom fit where it is a bit wide and taper grind the hard plate of the pad a little to give it a better profile without touching the rubber part.

What I am going to do, is take a piece of paper and poke the screw holes into it from the butt. Then while that is holding the paper to the butt, sit the butt down on a hard surface and trace the profile of the butt onto the paper. Then cut out my home made template and take it to the gunshop. I see the H&R custom fit is #10003, but I see some stocks with both the #10003 and the #10112 referenced. Might find a better profile but have to drill new screw holes or something.

I am also going to try the same thing with my synthetic stock to see if one can be found/modified to fit it. I have tried to print the templates on the LimbSaver site (following their instructions), and can't get one to print out to the actual size as listed. So that is worthless, as far as I am concerned.

Now as far as the topic, I think a H&R/NEF is a perfect choice for a kid. As a matter of fact, that is how my addiction started with these fine little rifles, shotguns and muzzleloaders. Bought my son a 20ga H&R Topper Jr. Deluxe N.W.T.F. J.A.K.E.S. gun back over 10 years ago, daughter a 410 pardner and then I couldn't help myself, so blame my kids.

Now I have a .223 Ultra Varmint, 20ga Ultra Slug Hunter LE, .17 HMR Sportster, and a .50 Caliber Stainless/Synthetic Huntsman. It is pretty much all I hunt with anymore, and if H&R made a 12ga Muzzleloading shotgun for the Huntsman, it would be all H&R/NEF.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #26 on:** September 03, 2006, 10:29:43 AM »

The templates work great for me if I make sure "fit to page" isn't selected in the print properties as it states in their printing instructions, they come out exactly at the stated size.

Tim

Busta · « **Reply #27 on:** September 03, 2006, 10:52:20 AM »

Tim,

I tried that (deselecting the "fit to page"), and none of them were what they said they were. Must be something else in my printer settings causing it, but I haven't figured it out. They were printing between 1/4" and 1/2" off on the length and around 1/8" off on the width.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #28 on:** September 03, 2006, 11:15:02 AM »

I can see why they are worthless to you if that happens!!

Tim

Busta · « **Reply #29 on:** September 03, 2006, 03:21:59 PM »

Here is a printout of the template compared to the actual sizes of three of my stocks. The laminated wood stocks are not even close from one to the other as you will see. The second one down is the actual print of the template, the one above and two below are actual tracings of my stocks. This will show you why you cant get a custom fit to fit exactly, because no two are exactly alike. I am going to take my traced templates in to match the pad, and then drill new holes if need be. The holes on the factory ground pads are not centered on the stock anyways. I think they screw those on then finish grind the stock with it, so it don't matter where the holes are to them. Try taking one factory pad off one gun and try putting it on another, not even close on mine.