Author Topic: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?  (Read 1873 times)

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Offline bluebayou

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Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« on: August 31, 2006, 06:42:30 PM »
Just curious how you came to use BLC-2 in that 338-06.  Is 200 grain a light bullet for that bore size?  Would you use a slower powder if you shot a heavier bullet?  Now that I am getting consistent loads and more confidence in my handloading, I am getting curious about burn rates the subtleties.  Why not use 4831 or something slower?  I have 2 pounds of BLC-2 but am getting nowhere with it in 223 and 7-08.  Maybe I should only use it with lighter bullets.

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2006, 07:05:03 PM »

Hogdons list some of the best velocities and lower pressures for the lighter wieght bullets with it...I'm having great luck with my 180grain Accubond load out of mine...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2006, 07:20:48 PM »
As Mac stated, BL-C2 in the 200gr and lighter .338-06 loads has the best velocity with lower pressures, a good Handi combination to look for in my experience. On top of that, it's also an Extreme powder, no need to be concerned over temp differences as are other powders such as RL22 which gets great velocity, but doesn't shoot the same when used in cold weather, what good is a hot load at the range if it doesn't perform the same under actual hunting conditions. I' haven't hunted with it yet, but I've read numerous complaints about that particular powder, just as an example.

I'm using H414 with the 230gr Failsafe and 250gr Sierra GK, it's another Extreme powder, it has great velocity, but lower pressures than other Hodgdon powders that the 2006 Annual lists.

Works for me!! ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline bluebayou

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2006, 08:11:30 PM »
Okay, I buy that.  I hadn't thought about the pressure angle.  I chose the slower powder H4831 for the .270 more for case capacity than anything else.  The faster powders that I have H4895, Varget, BLC-2, don't fill the case (looking at the Hodgdon Annuals, they have higher pressures in my calibers).  I have settled on Varget with the 7-08 and 160 SGK, H4895 with a lighter 120 Hornady.  The 223 shot the fire out of H4895 and Hornady VMax. 

I guess that I am really thinking about the 270 as it is such a bigger case than what I am used to dealing with.  A cousin shoots handloads but get vertical spreads in his groups that makes me think that the case isn't full (of course he could have a bad scale too).  He shoots a faster powder with a light charge of 43 grains.  I can hear the powder in the case move like an hourglass.

Just out of curiosity I think that I will load some light bullets in the 270 with BLC-2 and try it out.  I got a free box of 110 VMax from my father-in-law.

Offline Dillohide

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2006, 04:08:11 AM »
Lower pressure and higher velocity is the same reason BL-C2 makes a good 30-30 powder with the 170 grain flat point bullet.

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Quick-why the BL-C(2) in the 338?
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2006, 09:36:30 AM »
BL-C(2) is actually a 'ball' or spherical powder (Win' claims exclusive rights to the title 'ball' for their spherical powders!).   as such, it is a temperature-sensitive powder.....not an Extreme powder which Hodgdon's makes in the extruded forms.   it is somewhat harder to ignite, being a spherical powder with nitroglycerine as a component in it.   i'd recommend a primer a little warmer than a Win WLR in a case like the Win' .338.   perhaps a Federal 210 would help you achieve better ignition and velocities in that case.   but that's a rather energetic primer.......and you naturally need to work up your loads again.   

i do agree with using bullets up to 60 gr's i weight in the .223 Rem' with bl-c(2).   i get great results with it and its 'bulk' variant wc-846 using wsr' and 7 1/2br primers by Win' and Rem' respectively.   in the 7mm-08 i'd look at www.hodgdon.com/ for some recipes. 

i hope you find what you are looking for.

ss'   

Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #6 on: September 01, 2006, 10:08:33 AM »
I think SS is right, on page 60 of the Hodgdon 2006 Annual is a list of Hodgdon Extreme powders, one of which is BL-C2. But after looking at the Hodgdon Extreme powders on their web site, it isn't listed. It appears it isn't an Extreme powder, it's not marked as an Extreme on the bottle either as the others are. >:(

Thanks SS, better to know now than find out the hard way with meat NOT on the ground!! :-[

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page4.php
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #7 on: September 01, 2006, 10:30:08 AM »
I just spoke with Mike at Hodgdons...and it is a little temp sensitive..but not much more than some of the other non-extream powders available...He said...From a temp range of 0 degrees...to...125 degree F...one could expect anywhere from 0 to120 fps difference....and pressure could be down 3000 psi ...While not as good as the little variance you get with the extream powders..it's still not bad...and nothing comes close to giving the performance that I get with it in my 338-06.....and I didn't have any trouble last year with it hunting in the cool November temps.....I'll have to take along a cooler and chrony with me next time to the range and put the big chill on some ammo  to try...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2006, 10:42:05 AM »

Thanks SS, better to know now than find out the hard way with meat NOT on the ground!! :-[

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/smokeless/extreme/page4.php


Tim,

you're welcome, but my money would be on you anyway as one of the guys that will "make meat".   the same holds true for Mac'.   it's that thing about sewing and reaping.   you guys give us a lot of help, and i think you are helped/rewarded in return.

pretty soon we'll be 'sneaking up on' some good hunting reports, i hope.   it's getting harder to wait!

take care, fellas,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2006, 10:56:05 AM »
Thanks SS, but I don't know if you'll be getting much in hunting reports from me....my huntin partner and I both have knee problems, his much worse than mine. I had to quit my daily treadmill excercise last Sunday due to it, went to the doc a month ago, she said to quit the treadmill for a while, I didn't, changed to every other day, but it still got worse. Walking on level ground is ok, but up makes it hurt, dunno many places to hunt that are level around here. :'(

Thanks again, I'll do what I can, even if it's just sitting on clear cuts that we can drive to, my son can help us get em out!!!

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #10 on: September 01, 2006, 11:12:09 AM »
Thanks SS...

I'll be going after black bear...whitetails...and hogs this year with nomosendaro...actually going to camp this time around...Can't say for sure on the outcome of putting meat in the freezor...but...hopes are high that we connect all around...I'll be using my 338-06 A-Square...and my latest toy I just brought home for my birthday next week...it's not a Handi...but a Marlin 375...Sweet little gun...and should do just right with my 2x7x33 Leupold VX-1 on it...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #11 on: September 01, 2006, 11:18:34 AM »
Congrats on the .375, Mac!!  Everyone needs at least one levergun, I have a M81 BLR in .308W and a 9422, makes me happy!! ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #12 on: September 01, 2006, 11:41:54 AM »
tim,

i had water-on-the-knee for probably 18 months.   eventually i saw an 'orthopod' for another problem.  he told me the knee problem was NOT serious.   so i started riding a stationary bike with just a little bit of a bend in the knees while doing that.            it cleared up the problem!   and when it rarely has come back.......it clears it up again.       riding a stationary bike is 'low impact' as far as shock to the joints.    i recommend you try it with just a little bit of angle in the bending of your knee like i did.

take care.

Mac'

how heavy is the Marlin?   that should be a real treat to hunt with!

ss'   

Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #13 on: September 01, 2006, 12:09:46 PM »
It's arthritus more than likely, I've started taking naproxen OTC to see if it helps, dunno yet. One of the symptoms when it first started was if I knelt on my knee, it felt like I was kneeling on a nail or there was a thorn in my knee....but there wasn't!

Thanks,

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Mac11700

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2006, 01:47:07 PM »


My bathroom scale won't register correctly for some reason...but..it's a little lighter by feel than my 1895 SSGG felt to me..and I guessing that will put it around 7-1/2 to 8lbs with scope and all...It's got a 20" tube & 3/4 lenght magazine... It's not bad..and should carry real well...

Mac
You can cry me a river... but...build me a bridge and then get over it...

Offline nomosendero

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2006, 04:17:35 PM »
My bathroom scale keeps showing heavier, must be me!  ???
You will not make peace with the Bluecoats, you are free to go.

Offline JPH45

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2006, 06:11:44 PM »
Just curious how you came to use BLC-2 in that 338-06.  Is 200 grain a light bullet for that bore size?  Would you use a slower powder if you shot a heavier bullet?  Now that I am getting consistent loads and more confidence in my handloading, I am getting curious about burn rates the subtleties.  Why not use 4831 or something slower?  I have 2 pounds of BLC-2 but am getting nowhere with it in 223 and 7-08.  Maybe I should only use it with lighter bullets.

The answer to your question lies in the expansion ratio. Fast and slow in this disscusion are about how quickly a powder will reach a peak pressure rather than "burn rate". Using the 30-06 as the example, as the bore diameter is increased (from 30 to 338 in this case) we increase the expansion volumn which results in pressure loss. So we have to go to a faster powder to keep up pressure, hence keeping the velocity up. 4831 is nearly too slow for the unmodified 30-06. We know this because we begin to experience a velocity loss after powders in the range of 4350. Using 4831 only complicates our pressure loss after opening to a 338 bore.

Conversely, shrink the 30-06 to a 270 and 4831 begins to work well because we have decreased the volumn of the bore which acts to increase the pressure. This requires us to use powders that reach peak pressure more slowly. By the time we shrink the 30-06 down to a 25 caliber (the 25-06) we are able to burn powders in the IMR4831/H1000 range with effiency. Going back the other way, by the time we open the 30-06 up to a 375, we need powders on the order of 3031-4895, open it to 40 caliber and 4895 will begin to be too slow.

Simply put, expansion ratio is an expression of the relationship of the case volumn to the bore volumn. The bigger the case volumn is in respect to the bore volumn, the slower the powder will need to beand vise versa, the smaller the case volumn is to the bore volumn, the faster the powder will need to be. Google search "expansion ratio" there should be at least one formula for it out there.

BLC-2 will perform better with lighter bullets in the  7-08 but 4064/Varget will prolly give you best all around results. The 223 should be quite happy with powders in the range of 4895/BLC-2/H335/WW748 assuming bullets of 40-60 grains.
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Offline bluebayou

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2006, 07:25:36 PM »
I am glad to see that my thread wasn't ENTIRELY hijacked.  Where are the moderators when you need them?  Oh, yeah. ::)

Thanks for the well thought out reply.  I will change my perspective and look at the info differently.  Immediately, I can see how your explanation works out looking at the load data on the 270 WSM and the 300 WSM.  I see how the slower powders are recommended for the 270 WSM (even though there is a big mix there).  The data for the 300 includes my fave powders H4895 and Varget.  However, when you get up in bullet weight, 168 gr to 220 gr, there is H4831 again. 

Obviously, there is more than one factor in play when you decide on a powder.  I have been thinking only about the inertia of a heavier bullet.  Thanks for the expansion ratio info.  Not to be difficult but when you say "bore volume" do you mean "bore diameter" or the volume of, say, the throat/leade?  Thinking about it a bit more, you are probably saying the entire bore because the gas is still expanding behind the bullet all of the way to the muzzle.   

Offline JPH45

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2006, 02:24:46 AM »
Not to be difficult but when you say "bore volume" do you mean "bore diameter" or the volume of, say, the throat/leade?  Thinking about it a bit more, you are probably saying the entire bore because the gas is still expanding behind the bullet all of the way to the muzzle.   

Correct, we are talking about the full volumn of the bore, minus the chamber. Obviously, the concept of expansion ratio has limitations. If we substituted the volumn of a 16 barrel for that of a 24" barrel, we are going to get a different answer. As well, as you surmised, bullet weight also plays a role. The typical approach to bullet weight is a faster power for lighter bullets, slower for heavier.

Again, fast and slow are about how quickly a powder reaches a peak pressure, not about how "fast" it burns. It is pressure that most effects velocity. Note how much more powder it takes for the 300 Win. Mag to reach it's velocities as compared to the 30-06 with the same bullet weights even though both operate at similar pressures.

A lighter buller (for caliber) travels faster, takes less pressure to move up the barrel and has a similar effect to increasing the expansion ratio. This lets us use a faster powder. Conversly, a heavier bullet moves slower and takes more "oomph" to get it moving up the barrel, so we want a powder that reaches the peak operating pressure a little slower.

The 30-06 case is an exellent case to use to study this. Also note what happens when that case is shortened to a 308 and the same changes made (ie look at 243/7-08/358 Winchester) and compare the powders used. Also look at the relative bullet weight for caliber and how the powder speeds  change with them as well. Also, compare the powders of the '06 based cases with those of the -08 based cases caliber for caliber (ie 270 with 7-08 35 Whelen with 358 Win etc)

This is a good question and deserves a better answer than I am able to give, keep asking questions like this and you'll be come a truely accomplished reloader.
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Offline safetysheriff

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Re: Quick-why the BLC-2 in the 338?
« Reply #19 on: September 02, 2006, 06:29:38 AM »
  Now that I am getting consistent loads and more confidence in my handloading, I am getting curious about burn rates the subtleties. 

here's a little something about 'burn rate subtleties':  notice the oftentimes finely-grained/faster-rate powders that we use in straight-walled cartridges which do not have a shoulder contributing to effective ignition............ by way of turbulence inside the cartridge case.   notice how a relativelly small shoulder....even in a magnum.....like the .458 Win' Mag' .......calls for a powder as fast as W-748 or Alliant's Rel-7 to achieve its magnum performance.   burn rate, therefore, is selected with regards to "expansion ratio" as a part of the equation, but the brass case itself is the foundation upon which the equation starts.  where cartridges are 'choked down' from their large diameters just ahead of their webs to a relatively narrow neck we see the shoulder playing a greater part in this equation.   when the shoulder is also put at a steeper angle to the wall of the cartridge (like Ackley's 40 degree shoulders) we also see greater turbulence and a necessity for a 'slower' burn rate to keep our pressures safe.   

interestingly enough, burn rate can also be used to tailor a cartridges performance toward developing lesser recoil.   if a slower powder is substituted for a somewhat faster powder in a given cartridge recipe, even though the propellant charge weight is greater, the lesser velocity of the bullet and ejecta leaving the barrel give us a lesser recoil.......   this can also allow us to achieve greater accuracy with some cartridges because of their greater load densities contributing to more consistent ignition.    some don't believe it, but burn rate can significantly be used to tailor recoil levels that we endure from our rifles, pistols, etc.

i hope this makes sense to you,

ss'   
Yet a little while and the wicked man shall be no more.   Though you mark his place he will not be there.   Ps. 37.