Author Topic: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!  (Read 1618 times)

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Offline IC Cowboy

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HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« on: September 02, 2006, 01:50:03 AM »
I just purchased 2 NEF Handi Rifles in 45-70 as Gifts, I gave the 1 to my friend/farm helper and the other I wanted to have ready to go for my stepdad so I riiged it up with; Weaver 82 base, Burris Steel Rings-High, and a Simmons 3-9x50 scope; my friends is rigged with the same mounting hardware just a different scope a Bushnell (don't remember the Model). We both started shooting these consecutive Serial # rifles with the New Hornady 325 gr. LeverEvolution Ammo and the grouping leaves a lot to be desired, (actually it SUCKS). We are shooting from a bench and in a vise, though I am No Expert, I am not a Rookie either, I have never had a rifle spray shots all over a target this bad. My ?'s for the experts; Is there a weak link in my mounting hardware selection? Are the Hornady Leverevoltion the possible culprit, swithcing ammo perhaps? What can/should we do to get consistent groups? At $1.50 shot I am tired of the dissapointing results, I've shot 16 rounds thus far and might as well have just started. Please help!

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2006, 03:07:43 AM »
This is a tough one as you have only just gotten them and only shot a half a box of one kind of ammo.

 While irs certainly a possibility your rifles do not like this ammo. its more likely there a couple different factors working here.
I believe there is a sticky on accurising a handi. I would read thru and follow the ideas there.

I would also give the gun a really good cleaning and gry some different brands of ammo and see what happens...

Let us know what happens and mabe with some more bullets thru the barrel other issues will come into light.
 CW
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2006, 05:24:43 AM »
CW offers the right advice, the FAQ and Help sticky has answers for ya as well as trying different ammo. I have three .45-70s, they don't shoot well with some factory ammo, better with others, didn't try the Leverevolution ammo as it wasn't out when I was using factory ammo, I handload now. The Rem 300gr and 405gr green box are good shooters as well as the discontinued PMC 350gr +P ammo. Others like the Federal 300gr and the Win Supreme ammo.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline 218Bee

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2006, 07:26:53 AM »
Hey IC,

I would also try eliminating the vice, shooting off sandbags instead. This would eliminate any torquing of the hinge point.

Keep us posted,

Rick
An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.
-- Robert A. Heinlein

Offline NFG

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2006, 11:39:14 AM »
Good luck, Cowboy, two piece rifle and especially break action rifles can be worse than a broke di** bul...they have their mind on something other than shooting straight.

I'm no expert but I have delt with TC Contenders and Encores over several years and here is what I do;

1.  Shoot one or two 3 shot groups of several different brands and weights of ammo and measure the groups.  Saying it sprays all over the target doesn't provide much in the way of information.  Is it a large group, left, right, high, low, etc?  The standard 45-70 has a good reputation as a shooter, but you have to find what bullet it likes.  I'm going through the same problem right now with my BC.  Before the forend came off it was doing well with the 300 gr Hornady, Speer and Sierra,  3 shot cloverleafs, almost but not quite touching, 1 1/2" or slightly smaller.  I tried 3 on the range yesterday and it was one on top of the other 3" higher each shot.  I quit and headed for the bedding compound.  Either the solder job ruined the barrel or the forend isn't bedded quite right.  It definitely bending up as it heats up.

2.  Put the O ring on the barrel mount and try the same as above.  Keep the targets and good records.  It takes at least 100 rounds to smooth out the barrel and break it in.  Follow the sticky advice, it's proven by many NEF owners.  I used thin hard rubber washers I made on the TC's from space age missle stuff I aquired way back when I was working aerospace.  Amazing stuff, but long gone now.

3.  If the O ring doesn't help, pillar bed the forend or have one of the NEF specialists do it for you, and full bed the rest of the forend.  I do the full bed as a matter of course.  If it doesn't help directly then put a washer between the pillar and the mount.  I've used aluminum, steel, rubber, plastic, brass just about anything I could get my hands on, to try.  Or just open up the forend channel, put in a washer, try it, then full bed.  The order doesn't really matter seems like.  The barrel will decide what it likes and you have a 50-50 chance either way.  I don't like the screw against a thin section of wood NEF uses, but it is an inexpensive way to go.  Doesn't take much to put a pillar in there instead.  I usually use butten head allen screws either flush with the bottom of the wood or level with it.  Button heads don't cause much problem on the bench or off a branch.

I've also used a nylon pillar on a couple of bolt gun stocks in front of the forward swivel stud with about 10 lbs of pressure on th pillar.  It dampens out the vibs and helped one #1 contour barrel.

4.  Usually one of the methods will work.  I even filled the channel with a thin layer of silicone rubber on one Contender forend.  It worked for many years then went sour.  I stuck in a washer and it started shooting again.  Who can tell.

Think of the forend as something that changes the harmonics of the barrel and you have to isolate the forend or do something to cause the forend to change the harmonics in such a way as to improve the groups.  Changing bullet, powders, primers, i.e., changes what causes the barrel harmonics, the bullet going down the barrel, and will cause a change in the bullet dispersal.  If you are lucky you will hit the right combination right out of the gate.  If not it can be a long hard row to hoe.

Change one parameter at a time and then test again.  One 3 shot group wil suffice usually.  Oh, and be sure it is the rifle not you doing the spraying.  If you haven't done a trigger job, getrdone, it will do wonders.  One other thing, try swapping scopes around, you might just have a bad one.  I had one that would walk the  groups to the left about 3" per 3 shot group.  I kept screwing the dial and the next group would do the same.  Finally ran out of windage and had to laugh.  I was locked in on the group size and figured it was the powder charge causing to movement.  Amazing what a new scope will do.  The first scope did the same thing when I put it on a 30-06 just for kicks.

All these methods helped and I'm going through the list right now starting with full bedding on a NEF BC and a TC Encore 22-250. 

I drilled out the BC's pillars just a little for more clearance on the screws and the epoxy is setting up on another skin job.  I made another stud 0.100" thicker on the front stud on the Encore and the epoxy is setting up on the second bedding.  I will pick up some grade 8-1/4" flat washers next time I get to town to use if the Encore full bedding doesn't work.  I might even put a Boss on it or one of those rubber vibration dampeners.  I know one ol' boy that swears his rubber dampener made his 243 into a bug holer.  YOUGLY to the MAX, that rubber thing stuck on the barrel. ;D

Time will tell which one works the best.

Enjoy  NFG

Offline myarmor

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2006, 11:50:20 AM »
NFG makes a good post. One thing to remember about the O-Ring, is the principle of it.. to float the barrel to a small degree. If you put the O-ring in there and tighten it up, and the barrel is still touching wood, there's a good chance it will not work. Easy fix though, just sand out enough of the barrel channel of the forearm.
-Aaron

Offline trotterlg

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2006, 02:39:16 PM »
The vertical stringing isn't because the barrel is bending up, it is a lockup problem most likely.  It is a normal problem with these things.  I am starting to think it may be easier to solve the vertical stringing problem by fitting the barrel so that is locked up when the latch is at full travel, that way the lockup would be the same each time you closed the barrel.  Even if it had .001 or .002 play at least it would be consistant. With only partial latch travel the latch ends up in a slightly different place each time you close the barre.   Someone with a fitted barrel should give this a try, my last hand CF went away a long time ago.  Larry
A gun is just like a parachute, if you ever really need one, nothing else will do.

Offline dw06

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2006, 03:40:06 PM »
NFG,Thanks for the tips I learned some new things from them!myarmor,going to give that o-ring a try on one of my handies,sounds like it may help it.
If you find yourself in a hole,the first thing to do is stop digging-Will Rogers

Offline handyman06

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #8 on: September 02, 2006, 04:47:04 PM »
my hornet shot about 4" groups @ 100yds,i went to pull the forearm to put in the o-ring and found it was so tight the wood should have split. it shoots under an inch now. thats the only experience i can contribute.

Offline NFG

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2006, 05:45:24 PM »
Your right, Larry, but usually vertical stringing will have shots above and below a central point. I hope that is what it is.  Not sure though.  This target was one over the next over the next.  The BC gets locked up pretty good and I can't feel any play when it's in battery.  I roll the rifle over on it's back, muzzle down, lift up the wrist against the weight of the barrel, sorta flip the barrel down and lift the stock by the wrist at the same time.  It locks with a nice "thunk".  Something I learned shooting the TC's with tight headspace.

I loaded up a dozen more with a load that shot a nice dial caliper measured 0.810" CC cloverleaf with Speer 300 gr and 61.5 gr H4895.  Saved that target and a couple more.  I will try to scan in a file and send that as a picture.  Just a little paranoid over the solder spots causing a stress point.

I need to find some O rings with a 3.8" ID and .250" cross section so they don't squash out.  Going with a pillar and metal to metal makes it easier to get a good gap between the barrel and wood and also torque that will hold.  If you have any other material other than metal or hard gasket material, the torque won't hold unless you use a locktite material, and even then the softer material will squash out over time. 

I don't use gaskets between metal parts such as differential, transmission, and/or other tin ware and use a oil proof silicon rubber gasket material instead.  Once torqued and cured it won't ever leak or come loose, on onroad or offroad vehicles, two wheel or more.  All my rifles are pillar bedded or have a solid aluminum block in the stock doesn't matter what material the stock is made of so I can torque to a specific number. 

I set my benchrest stop so the forend screw is centered on the sandbag, or, in the new arrangement, the forend is centered between the two screws as a starting point.  BUT...you have to remember the targets will tell you where it likes to be set.  Sometimes it like to be set forward of the screw other times behind the screw closer to the hingepin, and believe me changing ANY component after you get a good load worked up, WILL change the target.  I've even removed the forend and sat the frame on the sandbag.  I don't have much trouble with bolt guns, light or heavy, but TC's and NEF can crank me up when they don't want to co-operate.

When I build a rifle now, or just add a barrel, I pick one specific bullet to use.  No one rifle for everything anymore.  20gr VMAX in the 17 Rem, 40 gr Vmax in the 223's, and 58 gr Vmax in the 243 Varmint rifles.  My 25-06 uses 75 Vmax, 100 Sierra, 120 CT's but that comes from using that caliber for 40 years and having loads that shoot one holers already developed and proven.  The 30 cals use 130 gr, 150 gr, 165 gr, and 200 gr depending on the size of the case.  338-06 uses the Hornady 225 but I think I will try the 250 Barnes TXS because of the heavier weight and higher BC.  I use the Speer 350 gr GS in the 416 Taylor and might try the Barnes 400 to see how it works. If I ever get around to doing my 375 cal, it will shoot one of the 300 gr bullets, i.e., Barnes, Swift or Nosler.  My point being, it's easier to pick one bullet and work up a good load than to jump around trying everything under the sun and, basically, being frustrated when none of them prove out.  Been there, done that, learned from experience and don't like being messed about. ;D

Try it, you'll like it.  Guaranteed. ;D 8) ;)

One of the methods will work, and if they don't, you might just come up with a new twist that is easier and works better.

Enjoy   NEG

Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2006, 05:59:22 AM »
Quote
Is there a weak link in my mounting hardware selection? Are the Hornady Leverevoltion the possible culprit, swithcing ammo perhaps? What can/should we do to get consistent groups?

Is the scope mount sitting flush with the top of the barrel? Are all the screws tight..and were they loc-tited in? Is the scope good have you used it on another rifle? Is this the only ammo you tried? There are several types of factory 45-70 ammo available besides the Hornady....Case in point...I have had great luck with the lite-mag ammo of Hornady in other rifles...but it won't hardly stay on the paper at 100 yards out of my Handi's...

Since you say your not a rookie..you should know these questions will be asked of you...

Just because you can't get 1 paticular brand of factory ammo to group well... that doesn't make your set up wrong or faulty..nor your rifle a lousy shooter...You should know this since your not a rookie...So try some different cheaper ammo from it..if this works...fine..problem solved....if the problem stays the same...

Start all over again...Try shooting the rifle from a normal rest...not in a vice...a sand bag front rest is usually better than a hard type rest. Shoot it  from a upright position..with the reciever on the bag..and the trigger gaurd almost touching the bag...The 45-70 in a Handi kicks hard...and if you are flinching badly..your groups (if you can call them that) will look like a buck shot pattern..If this reduces your groups fine...Then take steps to reduce the recoil even further...put a soft removable cheek piece on it to reduce the face slap you experiancing..and fit a Limbsaver recoil pad on it...I had over 1-1/2 of lead weight in my stocks bolt hole...and all the rest above before mine become managable to shoot for extended periods...Others use a strap on  Past Magnum recoil Shield on top of their cloths to tame the 45-70 with heavy loads...Anytime you throw that big of a chunk of lead that fast in a light weight rifle...it's going to kick like a mule..I won't shoot a Handi without a cheek pad on it..I use a Uncle Mikes Neopreeen sheel holder with some soft industrial rubatex foam under it..and since your using high scope rings..this will help a-lot..

Since this is a hard kicking rifle...and you aren't using a standard NEF scope rail...I would venture to say you have open sites on the rifle ...correct?...If  everything else above doesn't help.....remove your rail and scope...and try shooting it with the open sites...If your accuracy improves dramaticly..then you can re-install your rail..making sure it sits flush..( read the FAQ's on this) and loc-tite your base screws in..put your scope back on....Now..to bore site it..Place a target up at 25 yards with a 6" cross hair on it ..remove the barrel from your receiver..and put it in your vice and align it with the target..make sure everything is level...especially the barrel...and that your not aiming uphill or downhill...but level...Once you have it all level...and Before touching the adjustment turrets..look thru the barrel at the target..it's better to do this with a deprimed spent cartridge in the receiver...but..you can do it without...anyway...look at the target and center it in the barrel opening...now raise your head straight up without touching the barrel or scope...How far off is your cross hairs from the cross hairs...if it is a-lot...the best way to correct this is to have someone else do the adjustment to the scope (without moving anything) while your looking thru the barrel and the scope...you have to look thru both..not just the scope...Your putting the scope and barrel in alignment and when sighted properly..the cross hair will be centered in the barrel...and the cross hairs of the scope will be dead on...If. you can't do this...then it is your scope rail..your scope..or your barrel screw holes out of alignment.. You can try a factory scope rail..if that doesn't work..send your gun back into NEFIf you can't adjust the scope to be in alignment you may have found you got a bad scope...If you have succeeded to align everything with the scope and barrel....Adjust the scope to be dead on at 25 yards..and the center of the cross hair in the center of the barrel opening...(using a deprimed case is like using a peep site to do this..it makes it easier to do..)

Once you have done this..re-assemble your rifle..Get yourself and your rifle in a up-right position and use that sand bag front rest as I said earlier....and fire 3 shots at 25 yards...you should be dead on...If you are all over the paper at 25 yards..then it is either you...or the scope...If you know for sure it isn't you flinching or yanking the trigger..pull the barrel and put it in the vice again...see if the cross hairs are still in alignment...if they aren't..your scope is shot..if they are...Sorry Bro...it's you flinching and you'll need to take the precautions to stop it..What I do above helps..it really does...

Now.....If you got a nice little group going..and everything is peachy...move out to 50 yards..You should be somewhere around 1" to 1-1/2" high but I cannot say for certainty where yours will be..I know my bench technique..your may be high right..or low left...either way.....see how it groups..and where it's grouping at on the paper...Don't start chasing bullets holes around the paper by adjusting the scope..Shoot it as it was first..see how and where the center of your pattern is ..If your shoulder can stand it and your not flinching badly by now..it should be a-lot better..if it's not..it's most likely you flinching and yanking the trigger..Don't adjust your scope at this time..do this on the next firing...You want to see where it will place it's first shot from a cold barrel...and the next time you shoot will show you just that..The next time..fire 3 shots..pull your barrel..and adjust your scope to it as you did in the beginning except this time...center your scope on the center of the 3 shot group.....Let it wait a day..and fire 3 more  shots...If your scope hasn't shot craps...or moved...you should be dead on..and now it will place the bullets where you want them...from a cold barrel..

Rookie or not...it takes a heck of a-lot to be able to shoot the heavy 45-70 loads accurately thru a Handi or any rifle...Besides having the rifle functioning properly..you have to be prepaired mentally and physically for the recoil..if not..you  and your rifle won't be accurate...and you'll have wasted a-lot of money..only to have a brusied cheek and shoulder for all your effort..

Mac
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Offline myarmor

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2006, 06:22:55 AM »
Good post Mac. Great walk through for anyone that has never boresighted before. I also like the idea of using a unprimed case to look through, I'll have to use that from now on when I bore sight.
The Weaver rail doesn't have many slots for adjustment and scope mounting. I never could mount a scope up just right without riding up on it.
I use the wrap around type pipe foam insulation, cut to size, for raising my cheek piece with the neoprene shell holder over top it really does help.

Offline Coastwatcher

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2006, 06:33:48 AM »
The reason I keep reading this site is because I learn something every day.   I've boresighted my Handis and boltguns for years by eye and it works OK.   Mac's tip about using a decapped case to look through is great, its so simple but effective........... and it never occurred to me..................
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2006, 06:47:23 AM »
Arron:

I've seen a few  Handi's with the Weaver base on it..and at least one of them didn't fit correctly...Quick posted how to lap it it make it fit flush..and I would advise any using a non-standard NEF rail to follow his way of doing it...Heck..not all NEF bases fit perfectly either..so I don't want anyone assuming they will.Just as lapping your scope rings...lapping the scope rail will help as well....This is something that everyone shooting a handi should check before firing the first shot from it..I know everyone is in a hurry to get it out and break it in..but normal precautions should be first...Quicks way of lapping it will help the NEF's rails fit perfectly...and adding a few drops of loct-tite under them helps secure them for these heavy pounding calibers...

One of the nice things about our Handi's.. is you can get a Ultra Scope rail from NEF..It will allow move fore-aft movement for the scope..but the main thing with them to remember is NOT to allow the front set screw to contact the barrel..it will cause verticle stringing if you do..I've found this to be true with all of my Handi's..They all have the Ultra scope base..I have loc-tited the forward screw all the way up so it won't come in contact...

I've had several high end scopes fail on me..not just inexpensive ones..and if open sites are available to use..it is the quickest and best to try and see if the scope has  let loose...other than that...I routinely pull the barrel and check my bore siting with them..it takes but a couple minutes..but can save a bunch of $$$$$ to do so..As others have said before...try 1 thing not several at 1 time..narrow the problem down.Most folks don't want to say they flinch with any rifle...but I know just how brutal a 45-70 ++ loads are...That's all I shoot...It will make a beliver of you and your shoulder real quick if you aren't prepaired...With the 45-70...and the way you have to pull all the way thru with the trigger..it makes it a difficult proposition to shoot good groups to begine with..and when you can do this regularly..there isn't much you can't do with a regular type bolt or lever gun in any caliber..

Hope this helps...

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2006, 07:53:47 AM »
The vertical stringing isn't because the barrel is bending up, it is a lockup problem most likely. It is a normal problem with these things.

Not all Handis vertical string, work with the forend pressure/bedding, it can be fixed for hunting purposes unless you're colony shooting where a 3 shot group doesn't tell much.

Tim



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Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2006, 08:45:58 AM »
No...Not all Handi's verticle string..this is with a o-ring out of my( now nomosendaro's) 280 extractor barrel..but I think lock can have a great deal to do with it as well..This barrel/reciever locks up at .001" and had almost full engagement of the latch..on Nomosendaro's frame..it locks up approx. 1/2 way on the latch..so it should shoot pretty darn good for him...I think if I had a bunch of something to shoot at...this load would have done very well



Mac
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Offline IC Cowboy

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2006, 11:49:44 AM »
Just wanted to follow up with a BIG THANKS to everyone especially NFG and Mac. And share a bit more with ya'll. Typically before I shoot a Magnum or Big Bore or any High-powered rifle; I will first shoot 1 of either my 22 L.R. Target or 22 mag. or now/new 204, I do this to sorta Test myself to see how I can group and as a Exercise to go through the Mechanics of not flinching, following through with shots and such, as these are proven rifles that I am quite comfortable with. I also pulled the Buffalo classic out of the safe which I bought New last year, it was sighted in with 300 gr. Remington JHP, I had to prove to myself that I was again capable of shooting the 45-70 like I expected, you do have to Gear yourself up for it. I was satisfied with my 3 shot group wiith the Rems and honestly the 3 shot group of Hornadys was not that bad either. So I reconvinced myself that it was not my fault, nor not the Hornadys. I then proceeded to shoot the lil handi rifle 1st rebore sighting with a spent cartridge deprimered method and with the forend screw loose and resting the barrel between my thumb and pointing finger. 3-shot group not bad at all, I made some clicking adjustments to the scope, and cleaned the barrel with a brush between most shots. I have come to conclude that my barrel when HOT does not pattern well, and possibly the tightened forend may have some impact, also I think it likes a clean barrel. I was again getting discouraged as my best groups were the 1st shot and still was not hitting where I wanted with great consistency. I shot 19 times yesterday and have the bruise to prove it. I still have a couple of ?s

What is an ample amount of time to let barrel cool between shots?

What is a 325 gr. 45-70 doing at 25 and 50 and 100 yds. rising/falling and by how much?

Also, if someone wants to volunteer to P.M. me I will send you the target pics, and you have my permission to post them here, for the group discussion, Thanks!!

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #17 on: September 05, 2006, 02:14:53 PM »
I still have a couple of ?s

What is an ample amount of time to let barrel cool between shots?

What is a 325 gr. 45-70 doing at 25 and 50 and 100 yds. rising/falling and by how much?

Also, if someone wants to volunteer to P.M. me I will send you the target pics, and you have my permission to post them here, for the group discussion, Thanks!!

 1) If you cannot hold your hand on it...its too hot! Other than that it depends on the ambient temp, more on cold days less on warm ones.  I like to switch to other barrels/guns to never allow any one to get that hot.

2)  This entirely will depend upon intilal velocity. Off the top of my head, I cannot think of a factory round in this bullet weight, I would be guessing at the velocity in your gun.

3) As for posting pics, you should be able to. Run your curser over the ocon above the smiley face. Its the second one in. That will allow pics to be posted if bracketed between the link.
Like this:
 
[ img width=500 height=393]   http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/CWLONGSHOT/Temp%20stuff/briansbuck11-20-04.jpg    [/img ]

I have PURPOSELY added spaces after the first IMG and before the last, to show you the look. When YOU do it, do not use any spaces between the IMG brackets [] .

 CW
"Pay heed to the man who carries a single shot rifle, he likely knows how to use it."

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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2006, 02:44:00 PM »
Here's a thread from the Black Powder Mortar and Cannon forum on posting pics, we have one in the FAQ and Help sticky, but since Matt changed the software, the link doesn't work and I can't find it without the search function working, it's one of my 8800+ posts, the Google search that he implemented is a joke, I have yet to find anything I've looked for with it.

In a nutshell, you need a pic host to be able to post pics, that's explained in the thread below, using the [img] format won't work unless you have your pics hosted somewhere on the net.

Tim


http://www.graybeardoutdoors.com/smf/index.php/topic,3460.0.html
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Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2006, 06:40:43 PM »
Here's a link to Point Blank...It's a free ballistic software program..It's pretty easy to use and will help you with your ballistic questions.You'll need the velocities, BC's of the bullets..grains of powder...and a few other details that you need to supply..and it will do the work for you..http://www.huntingnut.com/

If you don't have a Chronoghraph..now that you are reloading..you might want to spring for one..It will take the guess work out of your reloads ..and is a great tool to use.

I don't have the BC of the 45-70 325 gr. Evolution ammo...You might want to call them and get it..and plug it into the point blank program..

If you are going to loosen the forearm screw...you might as well remove the forend completely for testing sake..

Also..make sure you are resting the gun so it will not bounce on a soft bag on front..Handi's have a tendacy to want to bounce..and this is a 2pc design..not a bolt..I use talc powder on my front bag to aid in sliding..not dragging..You'll want the rifle to recoil backwards and control muzzle flip with a finger just over the barrel,not touching, just in front of the scope.

It is quite possible your rifle shoots better clean than dirty..It sounds like you definatly need to either hand lap it as detailed in the FAQ's..or shoot it in...Some barrels need more breaking in than others...It doesn't make them bad shooters always..but in time they will break in to a point of shooting well...

One last thing...Just because it you get acceptable groups from the Buff with the Hornady ammo...doesn't mean you'll get them from anything else...So...yes...it could quite possible be the ammo...Try some other types of ammo...

Mac
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Offline quickdtoo

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2006, 06:56:36 PM »
The BC is .230 and SD is .221 for the 325gr .45-70 flextip in the Leverevolution ammo, now all ya need to do is pull a bullet and weight the powder........ then give us a full report! ;D

Tim

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Offline NFG

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2006, 08:18:58 PM »
I have a rhetorical question for you, IC:  What is your BC going to be used for, hunting or paper punching?

If it is primarily for hunting the most important shots are the first two out of a clean, cold barrel, or, as I do, the first ones out of a dirty, cold barrel.  I fire off 3 or 4 rounds a few days before hunting season opens or before I head out to my hunting grounds and never clean the barrel bore until I collect or the season is over.  I've used this proceedure since a old timer tought it to a first time 3030 user on his first hunt.  The first two shots are the most important for hunting purposes.  The first one should be placed to kill instantly, the second is for the twitch, either you or the animal, or when the first doesn't do the job.

I don't care what a 3 shot, 5 shot, 10 shot or more shot group looks like on a target other than they look very good and are good for whiskey talk. Ii the first one doesn't go where I aim the rest don't mean a thing.

When I am working up a load I always mark the first two rounds to see where they go in relation to the rest.  They will also give indications of what the load is doing, what the rifle is doing and what you are doing with the trigger, your hold, conditions, if the scope has all the parallax dialed out and many other things only experience, reading and talking will teach.

Recoil isn't a problem for me, I don't have to creep up on it.  I hold light recoiling target/varmint rifles just slightly less than heavy slappers, the same as I hold in the field.  I don't let them "free recoil".  I don't want the rifle to react differently on the bench or in the field.  Get a good grip, pull it into the shoulder pocket and let her rip.  I guarantee you won't be surprised if you forget and let a big bore get a head of steam, or creep up on the scope.  How do I know...the college of Hard Knocks, and I have a PhD from that famous school.  ;D  The name of the game is consistency through out.  A rifle is a system, consisting of all the components that go to make up the parts of the rifle, the parts of the ammo, everything surrounding the shooter AND the shooter.

If you just want to bang away at paper...all the above still applies.  I'm not a target shooter but I follow many of the benchrest rules, because they apply.  I want my hunting and varmint shooters to be bugholers if I can get them there, but, I would rather be hunting so as soon as I get "that load" worked up I head for the boonies, and if the rifle won't shoot when I grab hold of it, then it's useless for my puposes.

As far as how warm...if you can grab hold of the barrel and hold the weight of the rifle for say 30 seconds your OK.  High heat will kill a barrel quicker than anything else.  I fire 3 to 5 shots then let it cool while I walk to the target, check things out and walk back to the bench.  It also depends on the caliber, the barrel size the outside temp etc.  A rifle setting out in the August sun waiting for a shot, will get so hot you can't hold it.  How do I know?  Experience.  I have burned out several HotRock caliber barrels before I even got a good loads worked up.  Big cases, lots of powder and small holes down the middle.  I've put over 4000 round through several 220 Swift barrels and they were still shooting 3/4" or less then I swapped the barrel or the whole gun.  I just didn't shoot them until they turned red or cooked off a round in the chamber.

Mac covered the questions well so heed what he said.

Don't get too cranky when the targets get up in your face, just listen to what they say.  Remember cases are not all equal.  If you want the most out of your rifle and loads, buy 100 and seperate them by weight.   223 size, 1 gr spread.  308 size 1.5 gr spread, 30-06 2 gr and magnum 3 gr, or closer if you want.  Buy one on of the neck wall checkers and seperate again, keeping the neck wall runout within 0.001".  Remember if the neck is inconsistent so is the rest of the case body.  Then turn the necks to within 1/2 a thou, 0.0005", use a carbide primer pocket uniformer on the primer pockets and a flash hole reamer to remove the burr on the inside of the primer pocket and trim to length.  You should end up with about 85 cases all nice and closely matched.  After all this is completed you will have eliminated about 90% of the problems with lousy groups.  The rest is just finding the right seating, powder and bullet...Or...buy Norma cases to begin with and not have to go through all the above.  It all depends on what accuracy you want and how far you are willing to go to get there.  I know many people that are happy with keeping a couple of shots inside a pie plate at 100 yards.  They always seem to get their meat and they spend a whole lot less than I do messin' about with my "scientific endeavors". :P

My BC shoots best with the bullets touching the lands and it also seems to like pressure around 45 to 50 KPSI.  That puts a 300 gr at about 2500 f/s plus. Too fast for Hornady, but OK for Sierra bullets according to their published information.   I posted some of my findings else where, you might do a search if you're interested.

I will be starting some test with Barnes X bullets soon and I will post that information as it develops.

One other bit of foam.  I ran many test over the years on different aspects of reloading.  One thing I always do when I get that one bugholer group is to refire the SAME cases without changing anything to see what happens.  I guarantee you WON"T get another bugholer group, 9 times out of 10.  Something always changes to mess with the group size.  I used to have targets hanging all over my loading room walls of different caliber rifles with 5 - 10 shot groups all fired with the same 10 cases, within the time it took to fire, reload and fire again, 5 times.  I just shook my head everytime I looked at them.

Enjoy  NFG


Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2006, 04:48:41 AM »
There are many different styles of shooting...and just as many different schools of thoughts of what one should do in the field as opposed to shooting off the bench.The situation here isn't finding which type of shooting is best...but..of finding out what is wrong with this particular rifle and load.

To do this..one must eliminate every shooter induced variable possible and see how the rifle reacts to this particular load.To do this..one cannot just  Get a good grip, pull it into the shoulder pocket and let her rip..It is nearly impossible to define any type of problem with the rifle/ammo combination doing this..When someone who is having problems does this..they merely are sending lead to the target,and are unable to diagnose what is going wrong and to get any realistic answer.

A light controlled hold..either from the bench..or in a field position will enable the hunter/shooter to feel what the rifle is doing..be it a lever/bolt/or single shot. Yes..I advocate shooting the Handi's with free recoil..Provided one actually understands what they are doing and why... and  also they are implementing it correctly..the question remains .. if one is capable of doing shooting it in this manner..if not..more harm than good can result...but if they can..the benefits far out weigh the detractions...For one...it will allow the rifle to recoil the same without inducing torque from the grip area or from the forearm ...This is a 2pc rifle..one prone to having problems in this regard...Neither the grip..nor the forearm are ergonomically designed for everyone and every type shooting style...When one does adopt this type of shooting discipline as I use..the feed back given each time they pull the trigger is instantaneous..much like being a instinct shooter in archery....or holding golf clubs in the correct manner..and provided the person understands what info is being generated..This is a learned process... once they understand what they are feeling...then they can utilize what they feel.. to correct many types of problems occurring..

If one just grips it and rips it as one does with field hunting with a shotgun..they most likely will end up with a similar pattern on the paper much like the shotgun will produce..and while it may be fun to do so..it certainly won't explain why this 1 load is grouping lousy from this particular rifle...

Bottom line...Try some different ammo...see how it shoots..Then go from there...

Mac
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Offline NFG

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2006, 06:48:39 AM »
Well, Mac, we totally disagree on several points.  If you're benchresting a light recoiling rifle that's one thing, but letting a heavy recoiling rifle get a head start is not condusive to anything other than getting slapped around, possibly getting a scope in the eye or a thumb up your nose.  I don't have any trouble diagnosing a problem with a load while "grabbing a handful and letting her rip"  and no one else I know who does this same "Thing" does either.  That's how I hold in the field, that's how I hold on the bench working up loads.  I want to duplicate conditions. 

There is nothing wrong with dainty paws either but unless you carry your bench with you to a dog town or on your back while your hunting, then tell the victim to stand still while you set up, that's not how you hold a weapon in the field, any weapon.  I shoot off my knees, belly, against trees, over rocks and limbs, on backpacks, off hand, in some very contorted positions including almost straight up and straight down.  If I cut loose with ANY of my hard kickers in those positions the same way I shoot benchrest, my face would probably look like I'd been in a knife fight and lost.

I don't see anything wrong with free recoil, I use it all the time for informational purposes, BUT, not with many rifles over 6.5mm caliber and certainly not with a 45-70, even at 11 lbs and I don't use a lead sled or any other like kind of device.  I want to feel what the recoil produces so I know how the rifle acts, not that I like getting slapped around.

You can shoot pretty much however you want, I won't mind, but I don't advocate a light hold until you get some time under your belt, especially with a hard kicker that can hurt you very badly, possibly cause blindness in one eye or cause a concussion and I'm not talking BULL SH** here, I have personal knowledge of those facts.  There are just way to many factors you have to deal with and beginners have enough trouble as it is.  I advocate developing your loads and shooting style the same way you shoot.  If it is benchrest, getrdone....if it is hunting, get a handful....if it is both...learn what works best for you, by hook or crook and shooting a lot.  I don't know of anyone who has a lock on "This is the best and only way".

The only other way I would advocate "free recoil" is to build an "Iron Monster" and use a remote ignition device.  While I haven't built a "return to battery" machine, I have built various and sundry clamps and such to hold a barreled action against recoil and used a camera remote trigger to fire the rounds.  I learned quite a bit using those devices.

It really doesn't matter what your or I think because we've been doing this so long our thoughts and actions are almost locked in and we can't or won't change, and the older we get the more hard headed we become.

You seem to be forgetting were talking about a 45-70 not a 280 or something smaller, just want to be argumentative or think I'm attacking you belief system.  The information is there for whatever it's worth, and how I do it, and I don't really think I stated anything about field hunting with a shotgun.

Where did that come from?  And...what's with the italics?  What'sup'wi'dat?

I'm starting to get the feeling you're taking umbrage with my posts.  If that's the case, just say so...out with it...I'm posting because this site seemed to be ready made...for me to learn something more about the NEF and for me to post my experiences so the beginners can also learn from my experiences.  I've been shooting TC's and Ruger #1 for many years also, so I'm not new to two piece weapons, but there is always new information to be gleened from others.

Actually...you just keep on, keeping on and stay in your own world...I have no use for protracted arguments over minutia when it becomes needfull of proving.  I'm gone....


Offline Mac11700

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Re: HELP--My new Handi Rifle shoots like pooh-pooh!
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2006, 07:38:21 AM »
No..no need for any arguments...The italics are for emphasis only..

If one reads what I said about free recoil shooting a Handi..I hope they understand what I said..
Quote
A light controlled hold..either from the bench..or in a field position will enable the hunter/shooter to feel what the rifle is doing..be it a lever/bolt/or single shot.
..There is a major difference in shooting styles...This is but one of them....Knowing when where and how to grip a rifle and to do it consistantly is the key to good shooting...Ones practice at the bench should carry over to the field...
Quote
If I cut loose with ANY of my hard kickers in those positions the same way I shoot benchrest, my face would probably look like I'd been in a knife fight and lost.
...Utilizing my method...this is one thing that would never happen...Since this is a 45-70...shooting it in a normal bench rest  position (as one normally associates doing this in)..causes the shooter much pain and discomfort with heavy kicking rifles...Shooting it in a high full upright position with the rest supporting the rifle and a light controlled hold..allows the shooter to move rearwards utilizing their weight of their upper body...The recoil pad isn't starting from several inches away..but is barely touching the shoulder..and the right had isn't squeeezing the pistol grip moving the sites..but is in a different position all to gether..This has been discussed many times before..


Putting a death grip on any rifle..be it a 22 or any magnum will cause the shooter to tourqe it..plain and simple...and emulating how one shoots off the bench isn't that difficult if the bench technique is condusive to both positions as mine is.. I also know personally just how hard a hot loaded 45-70 in a Handi can kick.or a lever gun..or a bolt gun.....and allowing it a uncontrolled head start isn't utilizing free recoil shooting properly...It is controlled..not completly allowed free reign to do what it wishes..There is way more to shooting this way than most realize...If you don't understand that..then you don't understand completely how the teqhnique is utilized in shoulder fired weapons..Your absolutely correct...we are talking about a 45-70...not a return to battery bench monster...If the Handi is properly addressed with a soft cheek piece additional weight in the stock,and a  good recoil pad as what has been recommend ,.my 2400 fps Nosler partiton load (while stout) isn't brutal shooting it this way,notr would your loads..All hunched over in the normal benchrest fashion in a unalterd handi ...no way...I wouldn't attempt it again for any reason..I learned my lesson many many years ago doing just that...

Speaking of field shotguns was a comparison to gripping it and ripping it...not  anything personal against you..Griiping it in such a manner is how most fieild shotgunning is done by many...and the resultant grouping is what comes as a result..

While you may not recommend my shooting style...those that use it have improved their shooting skills...and by the way...IC Cowboy said..
Quote
though I am No Expert, I am not a Rookie either
...so I am taking the man at his word..I don't consider him to be anything but what he says..and in doing so will talk to him as such....While you may not have problems determining what is happening in your rifles...he seems to be the one  having the problems here..and I'm just trying to give him some good advice in the process from all my years dealing with these great little rifles...If he elects to try it..fine..but..the oppoutunity is his if he chooses to do so,wither you disagree with me...or if I disagree with you..

Mac


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