45/90,50/110 etc

[savageak]

am looking to aquire a high wall,i shoot 45/70 now in a lever action ,for big game here in ak .but want a long range target rifle,one of the historic types. So i'm looking for some input on some of the other old timey big bore rounds,that were used on the plains to hunt buffs.any input on these old cartriges would be welcome ,thanks

[dodd3]

savageak the 45/90 is an exelant round as you can load with  black powder or smokeless powder as to the 50/110 i have never seen any smokeless loads for it but that does not mean there arnt any .you shold post this on the black powder forum  you will get a lot of good info.
bernie

[marlinman93]

 I agree with Bernie. If you plan to load with black powder, there are numerous choices. The .45-90 is great, but also easier to find brass for! THe .50-110 is spendy brass, as are the longer .45's in old cases.
 You might also consider the .405 Win, which is a smaller bore, but lots of knockdown power too! The old blackpowder .40-70 Sharps Straight is another great choice, and one of my favorites!
 Consider also the .44-77 Sharps Bottleneck, which was one of the original Buffalo cartridges, and works well with either smokeless or BP! I have an old Roller in .44-77 and a Hepburn in .40-70; not sure which I like better!
 If you're going for big game you can't go wrong with any of these!

[Cottonwood]

IF you plan on using smokeless powder for the 45-90 and or the 50-110 you can use Accurate Powder

Accurate Powder Obsolete Cartridge Data

For the 45-90 Winchester Express or 45-2.4 Sharps Straight cartridge loadings there are more options.



I load with both Blackpowder and Smokeless and enjoy both very much.  My original Remington Rolling Block will soon sport a Wm Malcolm 6x Telescopic rifle Sight as I am selling the Ukrainian Long Range Soule Sight and front Spirit Level Tunnel Sight w/inserts.

[glshop20]

I have a 45-120 and it is fun to shoot.  I bought it because it was a deal I could not pass up.  I would have preffered 45-70.  All the larger brass is more expensive, harder to get.  If you are ging to load with smoheless powder, there is no advantage to larger case.  You will never fill a 45-70 case with smokeless.  If you are using Black powder you need more capacity in the case to load more powder for more velocity.

[quickdtoo]

The .45-90 to .45-120 cartridges using smokeless loads have one distinct advantage over the .45-70 when shooting 500gr and larger bullets in that the larger case allows more room for powder with a lot less pressure than the .45-70  if you want to use stout loads.  Take a look at Hodgdon's .45-120 pressures for H4895, Benchmark and Varget with 500gr cast bullets, the same load in a .45-70 would increase pressure to about double that of the .45-120 which puts the pressure into the Ruger levels. OTOH, if you don't care for those stout loads, there is no advantage to the larger capacity .45 cartridges using smokeless.

Tim

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/cowboy/lrrd.php#45-120

[iiranger]

I have found it interesting how the cartridge makers were lazy. They came up with one rim size and made a dozen cartridges with different names (and very little other differences) by making the body of the case longer or shorter. .45/70 was a government cartridge and from there... .45/120 WCF (.45 Sharps' 3 inch straight? same cartridge) was the hot rod. 300 grain bullet at around 1800 fps. .45/60 WCF was the whimp for the less strong 1876 Winchester lever actions. More "thump" meant bigger diameter. 500 grain bullet, but now 50 caliber... These were black powder rules and pressure was not controllable much above 20K CUP. Ladies guns were like the .32/40 afield and for the garden/back yard .25/20 WCF or single shot... The first .22 rimfire was for shooting indoors into the fire place. (BB Caps, then CB caps). .22 Hornet with black powder was the .22 WCF.

I built a .45/70 on a Siam Mauser for the strength of action, then learned about the brass. Ahhh experience.

.45/70 Government case was necked to .375 to make the .38/56 (not .38/55 which is on the .30/30 case/rim). Or the .40/65.  50/110 case survives as the rim/parent of the .348 Winchester. Little short--.348 case, but probably do .50/70 gov alright. .405 WCF was based on the .30/40 Krag/.303 British rim and worked at the new, higher smokeless pressure, post buffalo era, circa 40K CUP like the .30/30 WCF (which is the .32/40 case necked down and blown out for 1894! Not to forget the .32 Special, same case. .321 bullet, blown out...)

So when you do your homework, Cartridges of the World for instance, you will find the "round" that "calls" to you and then it is how much gun you wish to tote. Big rounds mean big machinery MEANS heavy. The old hi walls had the right amount of modern steel for 1885. Today you can put the .243 in a low wall, or at least Browning catalogues it... Oh yes, the lighter guns kick more. What is your pleasure? How much abuse...? I can understand the long barrels and crossed sticks of the buffalo hunters. More weight, less sharp recoil. Big bullet = big hole in buffalo lungs = dead buffalo. So how is your heart? Or do you have a pick up to haul this piece of artillery? (ha, ha) ENJOY  luck.

[OhioCruffler]

You will never fill a 45-70 case with smokeless.  If you are using Black powder you need more capacity in the case to load more powder for more velocity.

I disagree as well.  I find the case capacity of the 45/70 to be quite limiting using smokeless powder.  The key is which smokelss powder you are talking about.  I load smokeless in the .50 Sharps 2.5" case.  I have some loads for that case that are compressed loads.

You can only get 50 grains of 4895 in the 45/70 case under a 500 grain bullet, for Pete's sake.

Lots of slower powders get you good velocities with much lower pressure. 

Larry

[SneakyPete]

I didn't think they used the .45/70 and up for target shooting. Buffalo hunting yes, but for target shooting I thought they used calibers like .38/55.

[marlinman93]

I didn't think they used the .45/70 and up for target shooting. Buffalo hunting yes, but for target shooting I thought they used calibers like .38/55.

 That really depends on the match. There were (and still are) matches that are suitable for a .45-70 rifle. The smaller calibers don't fare well once ranges go beyond 200 yds., so the .45-70 works better when the bullet is in the air for longer distances. Smaller .32-40 and .38-55 bullets with their lesser weights are more susceptible to wind drift, so most long range matches did, and still do, use heavier .40 and .45 caliber rifles.

[kombi1976]

How much difference would a 45-90 make if used with more moderate pressures.
I'm seriously considering building a 45-90 on a Martini Henry action which, as most people are aware, were with 303 Enfield barrels, and as such are quite up to the 45,000 psi load of the 174 FMJ MkVII military load.
The '90 will fit in the action but am Igoing to benefit when limited to 45k loads?

[Smokin Joe]

I think your shoulder will give out long before you reach 45K. I shoot a 9 lb .45-90 and with 530 gn bullets it's not pleasant.

[kombi1976]

I think your shoulder will give out long before you reach 45K. I shoot a 9 lb .45-90 and with 530 gn bullets it's not pleasant.

Much of the time I'll be taking your hint on the lighter loads but for buffs I'm going to be pushing the loads as far as I can.
In addition it'll be heavier than a H&R.
The Martini Henry action is a solid hunk of steel, the barrel will be decent weight and I'll be keeping the overall weight up as much as is practical.

[boommer]

45-90 will make you take nnootice with 500 GR PLUS SLUGS !! YOU DON'Twant a CRESCENT BUTT STOCK !

[kombi1976]

45-90 will make you take nnootice with 500 GR PLUS SLUGS !! YOU DON'Twant a CRESCENT BUTT STOCK !

Uh......no.
It'll be getting a sims pad to help with the recoil, maybe even put a bag of lead shot shot into the butt bolt channel and I'm not even risking a "Weatherby smile" by scoping it.
It will have express sights and besides, a scope just slows target acquisition and ejection/reloading on a Martini so it would be bad news when hunting dangerous game like water buff.

[admiral]

the 50/110 is alot of fun to play with. i have a converted 1886 Browning that is a true powerhouse. paper balistics don't show alot of differences in any of these old rounds but the big 50 thumps much harder than my converted 1886 Browning 45/90. realistically you can't go wrong with either but there is something about that half inch hole in the barrel. as far as smokeless loads for the 50/110 i shoot two different ones: 310 gr. gas check from NEI mould #375A cast from WW and water dropped with LBT lube in Starline case with 64.0 gr. H4198 for 2225 fps that duplicates the old Winchester smokeless express load from the early 20th century. you can easily and safely get 2400 fps with this bullet if you choose. this next one is an attention getter: 475gr. gas check from Hoch custom mould cast from WW and water dropped, LBT lube, same case, 72.0 gr. IMR3031 for 2000 fps. the 50 Alaskan is nothing more than the 2.4" 50/110 case cut to 2.1" or the 348 WCF blown out. the Hodgdon 2006 annual manual has some great pressure tested data for the 50 Alaskan with heavy cast bullets. the 50/110 will take a few more grains of powder to reach the same velocities as the Alaskan because of the bigger case operating at lower pressures. have fun.